AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)

[Neill McKay]

For the BC ferries latest large ships, they noted that the contracts went overseas (Germany), but they could have built them, but in their own literature it came out that they wouldn't have built them, they would have assembled them -- huge difference.  The hull sections would most likely have been built overseas (china? s. korea?). 

I wonder how feasible that would be, given that they'd have to move the sections in several heavy-lift ships.  What would be the advantage to doing the assembly here?

 

[Kirkhill]

I think what gives WMG a leg up is the combination of Aker Marine, Royal Schelde and Merwerde, moreso than what WMG brings to the table.

All three have a very strong design and contracting reputation with construction happening in a variety of yards around the world.  Aker just recently reopened or revitalized underutilized docks in Philadelphia.  

Aker brings experience working with ice and azipods and working with Civ/Mil joint specifications.  They make double acting ice-breaking tankers, the Svalbard Patrol/Ice-Breaker for the Norwegian Coast Guard, OPVs for various nations, as well as a variety of utility vessels, oil rigs and cruise ships as well as deep sea trawlers that are as large as Canadian frigates.  They build ships in Norway, Finland, Spain and now the US as well as building the New Zealand OPVs in Australia and New Zealand

Royal Schelde brings the Dutch naval experience as well as the Enforcer design for an Amphibious Transport (used by the Netherlands, Spain, and the UK and built in the Netherlands, Spain, the UK and Bulgaria) and the design for the Patino class of oilers used by the Netherlands and Spain.

Merwerde brings the design for the ice-strengthened Multi-Role Vessel for the New Zealand Navy - built in the Netherlands and fitted out in New Zealand by an Australian company as part of a international package.

WMG just brings the facilities to this consortium (and the Canadian connection).  The rest of this group is well supplied with designs,  experience in assembling projects internationally and in the vagaries of dealing with politically sensitive State enterprises.

And no this isn't a commercial for the WMG..... ;D

I do have to declare a bias though,  having worked as a supplier to American Seafoods for years, a Seattle company founded by Kjell Inge Rokke, I have been fascinated by his career.  The legend is that the came to the US from Norway as an 18 year old deckhand on a small trawler.  Made a fortune in Alaska, p****d it all away.  Learned and bought his own boat.  Went broke two or three more times.  Learned and built a company then ended up as owner/president of one of Norway's major state owned companies.   Aker - Kvaerner.    This fascination, together with my interest in things military and naval caused me to spend more time than is healthy on Aker and what they might bring to the Canadian situation.    I was really surprised to see that WMG scooped not just Aker but also Royal Schelde and Merwerde because these three firms usually compete vigorously for the very types of vessels that Canada is looking at for all applications.

I honestly don't think that you could find a more experienced set of suppliers for effective, mid-range solutions.

hmmph - Maybe I should go present myself to them and see if there are any openings - I guess I qualify as a fan.  

PS Aker also was early into the game of building a common hull then dropping in modules (such as hotel modules) built on shore.  Similar to the Danish Flex concept.

 

[Gus]

Yes, Australia builds locally, with heavy support from the designer.

Australia has built their own ships, but I was thinking of these ships in the RAN --  http://www.navy.gov.au/fleet/amphib.html (originally built for the US) and http://www.navy.gov.au/ships/sirius/ (built by Hyundai)

 

[Willing Foe]

The fast ferries were a political project by the NDP and to compound the mistake they were put on the wrong route. The ferries were well buillt, also many of the steamers were built on the west coast but the men who built them are long dead.
WMG has the capability to build the AOR's out on the coast.

Australia does not retrofit. They purchase the building rights, but they manufacture in Australia.

You are half right. Australia purchases building rights but are also currently retrofitting (converting) - MT DELOS converting to a role of RAN Auxiliary Oiler (AO) to what will become HMAS SIRIUS. Though this is an interim measure to last till new builds come online.

 

[geo]

Irving did quite the mess with the Frigatte program AND dismantled it's shipyard in St John once the project was finished.  Any expertise they may have had... is gone.

If there is anything I hpe is that the Navy decides to avoid going into building binges .... followed by shipyard famines.  Wasteful and non productive.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Irving did quite the mess with the Frigatte program AND dismantled it's shipyard in St John once the project was finished.  Any expertise they may have had... is gone.

If there is anything I hpe is that the Navy decides to avoid going into building binges .... followed by shipyard famines.  Wasteful and non productive.

I would hardly call 12 frigates a buying binge...considering they were the first new warships constructed in almost 2 decades. It was a sorely needed shot in the arm for the Navy, one that I hope does not come every decade or 2.

 

[geo]

my point is that it would have made a lot more sense to build em in 1s or 2s over a decade.  If they were building on even years and refitting on odd years, shipyards would be kept busy without breaking the bank and buying your expertise at top $$.

 

[Roadracer]

This would require a change in strategic thinking by the government, but makes a lot of sense.

Canada needs ships for the Coast Guard, Fisheries Dept, RCMP and the Navy. With the strategic will, government ships could be building all the time, keeping all fleets relatively current and keeping naval architecture alive and well in this country.

However, in order to do this, there would have to be investment in only 2 or 3 ship yards., Canada could not afford to help maintain this sort of capacity in more yards than that.

Now the politics kicks in, which 2 (or 3) and where? Halifax and Vancouver? What about Quebec, New Brunswick, and Newfoundland? All areas with great shipbuilding traditions.

 

[geo]

Roadracer.......... at present, there aren't that many shipyards open that would benefit from the Gov't largesse.

NB - Irving shut it down and took it apart - it ain't there no more.
Halifax - more like maintenance yards over there
Quebec - Davie just got saved from the Auction block.  Bought by a Scandinavian consortium to build Offshore Oil platforms.

 

[Roadracer]

Agreed, the industry may be so far gone it is unsalvagable. Unlike the past, when there was enough infrastructure left where expensive improvements were enough to bring it all back up to standard. This time it may need to be rebuilt from scratch.

It's too bad. I believe as recently as 10 years ago we still had a chance to execute a national shipbuilding strategy that put hulls in the water AND served industry.

 

[Willing Foe]

Agreed, the industry may be so far gone it is unsalvagable. Unlike the past, when there was enough infrastructure left where expensive improvements were enough to bring it all back up to standard. This time it may need to be rebuilt from scratch.

It's too bad. I believe as recently as 10 years ago we still had a chance to execute a national shipbuilding strategy that put hulls in the water AND served industry.

It should be noted that the reason that we don't have a shipbuilding is because we DID execute a national shipbuilding strategy. The Liberals, when pressed to move on such a strategy decided not to have a world class shipbuilding industry. They instructed the Irvings to fill in their ship yard and paid them to do it. If they were to convert that facility back to shipbuilding they would have to repay a signficant incentive to find a new use for it.

 

[tasop_999]

I had someone tell me that there are still some facilities left on the West Coast that may be able to handle building Naval-sized ships.  Any thoughts? I know that VSL and the other major one in Vancouver are only really equipped to do refits.  I am puzzling to think who on the West Coast (besides China and Japan) this person was talking about.  I am thinking that this person was a little off the mark.  Any insights?

 

[geo]

Small shipyards abound.  BC one is working on the Orca class of training ships as we speak.  BC shipyard built those "fast cat" ferries..... which were yanked out of service and the headache sold to other parties.

 

[Sub_Guy]

I had someone tell me that there are still some facilities left on the West Coast that may be able to handle building Naval-sized ships.  Any thoughts? I know that VSL and the other major one in Vancouver are only really equipped to do refits.  I am puzzling to think who on the West Coast (besides China and Japan) this person was talking about.  I am thinking that this person was a little off the mark.  Any insights?

You can't be serious!  Didn't you read the post, Washington Marine Group...... WHICH, oddly enough....... builds ships on the west coast!  But if you are looking towards Asia for shipbuilding, I would have gone with Korea......  BTW WMG is one of the final two teams bidding on the JSS.......

I know it is hard to fathom, but we do have some maritime industry set up out here on the west coast....................

 

[geo]

At ease sub guy.... think I pointed that out - WMG being the lead on the Orca class...

However weren't they also involved with the BC pacificats?

 

[Sub_Guy]

I know WMG bought them at an auction when the government sold them off.... 

March 1996 - Catamaran Ferries International Inc. (CFI) is created by the government and BC Ferries for directing and building the new fast ferries.    I don't know if WMG was a part of CFI or not.

WMG was involved in the building of the Spirit Class which  are solid vessels

 

[geo]

Think you will find that the makers did buy them back..........

All in all, when you get down to brass tacks, there was nothing wrong with the Cats.  The problem was that the design was not well suited for the area they were intended for use.  The straights are narrow enough and the Cats would create small Tsunamis if they travelled at their max speed.  Also the problem of Floatsam, logs being ingested by the propulsion jets... and their heavy diesel consumption when run at low speeds.

The Cat builders did their job - the Cat designers and the NDP Gov't are responsible for the boondogle.

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

Think you will find that the makers did buy them back..........

All in all, when you get down to brass tacks, there was nothing wrong with the Cats.  The problem was that the design was not well suited for the area they were intended for use.  The straights are narrow enough and the Cats would create small Tsunamis if they travelled at their max speed.  Also the problem of Floatsam, logs being ingested by the propulsion jets... and their heavy diesel consumption when run at low speeds.

The Cat builders did their job - the Cat designers and the NDP Gov't are responsible for the boondogle.

Hmmm the NDP....that would be the party that bankrupted Ont under a certain fellow that the Liberal party of Canada were seriously considering electing as their new leader and running against the current PM to have a go at the rest of the country's economy. Ain't democracy cool??

 

[geo]

He ain't no liberal & he was never voted into the Fed house under any party.

Bye the bye.... Quebec Lib party leader (&premier) was Fed Conservative..... elected to both offices.  Bob Rae did not run & he did not get elected - after being turfed out of Ontario politics

 

[Danjanou]

He ain't no liberal & he was never voted into the Fed house under any party.

Well actually he was.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Rae

“…Rae was elected to the Canadian House of Commons in a 1978 by-election, defeating Progressive Conservative Tom Clifford by 420 votes in the Toronto riding of Broadview. He was re-elected in the new riding of Broadview—Greenwood in the 1979 federal election, and gained national prominence as the NDP's finance critic. It was the vote on Rae's motion of no confidence that brought down the Progressive Conservative government of Joe Clark in December 1979.

Rae was elected to parliament for a third time in the 1980 federal election, and married Arlene Perly days later. In caucus, he sided with party leader Ed Broadbent in supporting patriation of the Canadian Constitution with a Charter of Rights and Freedoms. He also articulated his party's policy on the Canadian Bank Act, and criticized the Bank of Canada's high interest rate policy.”

Sorry for the hijack, we now return you to your regular scheduled thread discussion. 8)