AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)

[Kirkhill]

I am all for Canadian orders going to Canadian yards if the yards can produce a competitive product at a competitive price - and that means leaving competition open to international players as well.

It isn't up DND to build shipyards so that Canadians can build ships.  That may be a valid government goal but it isn't a National Defence goal.

By the way - would all members kindly refrain from using the word Nationalize in my sight or at least supply fair warning - violent visceral reaction may be hazardous to my health.

Cheers, tremblingly.

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

I am all for Canadian orders going to Canadian yards if the yards can produce a competitive product at a competitive price - and that means leaving competition open to international players as well.

It isn't up DND to build shipyards so that Canadians can build ships.   That may be a valid government goal but it isn't a National Defence goal.

By the way - would all members kindly refrain from using the word Nationalize in my sight or at least supply fair warning - violent visceral reaction may be hazardous to my health.

Cheers, tremblingly.

I'm just going to throw this out there, but doesn't it make sense for the navy to own it's own production/repair facilities (surface fleet only)?

Steal a guy out of Northrup Grumman Ship Systems in the USA to design and build the facility and organization from scratch.

My primary rationale is that if you owned the facilities and much of your production costs were fixed (labour), it then becomes logical to run a serial construction program to keep your guys busy and minimizes the fiscal advantage of deferring programs.



Matthew.    ???

 

[DJL]

We should always build things in Canada.....the problem is private shipyards require constatn orders to justify maintaining facilities and staff.....we get tax dollars back from them, but they should be given frequent contracts so Canadians are employed and our technical espertise is on display....nationalized shipyards re-coup all revenue, but require the government to pay to maintain the facilities and staff.

Why? Did you, or a combination of you and your family build your home? Your Car? Make your own clothes? Raise/grow your own food? If not, why? Do you not think it prudent to keep your families income within your family?

I've no problem with admitting that I can't do those before mentioned tasks efficiently, and as such, I seek the services of those that can. Why should Canada do any different?

As for returning tax dollars to the government, I'll go one step further.......let's return the tax dollars saved in purchasing foregin built ships to the taxpayers, well getting a quality product.

I'm just going to throw this out there, but doesn't it make sense for the navy to own it's own production/repair facilities (surface fleet only)?

Look into why the Royal Navy no longer builds it's own ships.

 

[Kirkhill]

Trying a different tack here based on a comment by the PM after reporters jumped him about BMD.

He responded that Canada's priorities were its coasts and approaches, its air space and arctic sovereignty.   He also said to a Liberal fundraiser that Canada could look after its own sovereign spaces it didn't need the US to come up here and do it for us.

So.............

In April the PM announces three JSS vessels capable of navigating 1st year ice.
In June or July there is speculation about a new class of Offshore Patrol Vessels
In August Canada takes its first run in years at an Arctic Ex
The MHP project gets finalized
An announcement on replacing the YAGs with a Patrol/Training craft that is faster than the MCDVs.

Can we suggest that the focus is going from bluewater anti-sub task to domestic littoral tasks?
If so, and we accept that most domestic threats/tasks can be handled by a light infantry combat team then the JSS makes sense?

Consider some roles and taskings.

In a rerun of this   Summer's Arctic Ex a JSS could transport a Combat Team with OSVs, Bv206s and MSHs to a large portion of the Canadian Arctic and virtually all of the Shores of the Northwest Passage(s)

In EEZ roles a JSS could support   a mix of OPVs with heli support and boarding parties as well as doing coastal patrols on remote shores in support of sovereignty.

In Expeditionary roles it could act either/or as an AOR for a bluewater taskforce or as a lead element in a littoral task force of OPVs, MCDVs and possibly even the SSs, with or without FFHs and with or without troops embarked.

In Humanitarian Roles - such as aid to Haiti or Grenada - it could be deployed on its own from Halifax and be in the Caribbean in about 4 days,   - it could even put to sea in advance of Hurricanes to cut the reaction time.

If looked at in this light even I can start to see the vessel as a versatile piece of kit that will enhance the CFs flexibility.

It will even let us get our feet wet (excuse the expression) conducting unopposed amphibious operations in domestic waters and on humanitarian missions.

The one thing it won't do is let us transport a battle-group to the field.   I think for the forseeable future most kit is still going to go by charter - or by a NATO operated vessel (UK, Norway, Netherlands and some others are already signing bilateral deals to utilize their transport assets).

Maybe in a few years they might let you have a purpose built vessel capable of carrying a battlegroup.

In a related thought it might be possible that the government will buy some heavy lift aircraft (4-6).

Reasons:

During the election PM said "aircraft carriers" were "cold war stuff" and too slow.   The world needed aircraft for rapid response.
Look to the MHP program to see what politicians will do so as not to be caught in an embarassing position with an election coming up.

Aircraft are critical for timely response to domestic crises, both military and civil.

Aircraft are absolutely necessary for Humanitarian Aid Ops where the first 72 hours are critical.   If you are not there in that time your contribution is less effective.
Humanitarian Ops will buy international goodwill, don't require soul-searching debates or approval from the international community.

Half-a-dozen C17s put at the disposal of NATO would be the quid pro quo for not putting ships into the pool.

Buying C17s would demonstrate commitment to defence and international ops to the Americans.

Buying C17s would go some way to evening out the trade imbalance that currently favours Canada and contributes to the falling American dollar.
Buying American would be good politics.

Thoughts for the day, Cheers.

PS Mike thanks for getting back up on line.... Missed you

PPS another thing that prompted me to start thinking on these lines were the comments by Whiskey and DKL on the Global Cruiser and operating a Chinook.   That suggests that the RN at least is considering that there will a role in the world coming for platoon/company sized interventions to stabilize situations.   In addition to fighting ships and subs or bombarding the shore Her Majesty's Government wants the option to be able to deploy a GunBoat that can launch a flag-raising force along with its missiles.   Our JSSs would allow the despatch of a similar sized or larger force but would require an FFH or DDH to accompany it for firesupport (assuming an armament change).

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

I think you are reading too much into it.
1) The current YAGs were in such need of replacemen it was only a matter of time as for a patrol craft there was a picture of the ORCA in the Maple Leaf (Proposed pic) and you won't get any more then a .50 at best on it.
2) As for the OPVs it makes economical sense to free up the CPFs from patrol duties and use them in showing the flag so to say during offshore deployments.
3) As for the JSS being a versatile piece of kit all you have to do at look on what they want it to do. We have used our AORs in the past for disaster relief why would we not continue to do so?

 

[Kirkhill]

Insert Quote
I think you are reading too much into it.

Probably.  But I enjoy speculating.

Cheers.

 

[FSTO]

Of course not... just like the Navy is not flying, or maintaining, the Maritime Helicopters.

We're not under Navy command. Our command still lies at 1CAD. We're just attached to the Navy when we're embarked.

It would be far easier for the Navy to take over Naval Aviation (as it should be) than it would be for the Army to become sailors.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Actually, I think Kirkhill's analysis was well thought out and may accurately predict the future. We all know what "should be", therefore we can predict the future: "should be": will never happen. Despite whatever plans the gov. may put to paper for single hulls etc. I think it's a pretty safe bet that the blue water fleet will shrink while withering on the vine, along with the missions associated with it. The single hull concept is illusory at best, and more likely a disaster in the making, if anything is made at all. The JSS was/is an easy choice to make, because it will never kill an enemy, and certainly won't ever carry a tank to a foreign shore, will it? RAS'ing 20 year old semi modernized CP frigates until they are extinct will be the extent of it's blue water mission, after that they may well be an arctic superstore to OPV's and corvettes while the world passes us by.      

The politics of Canadian defence are turning inwards towards protecting our own eez and coasts. Despite the rhetoric of PM, Canadians and their politicians don't give a flying you know what about showing the flag internationally anymore, but they will definitely get their backs up WRT our own lands, coasts and water. I think they will ultimately go cheap[er], and build oversized, politically correct under armed corvettes- in other words littoral in the true sense of the word, without the associated potential for the violent response to make the necessary effective statement. Of course, that would be a mistake since nothing else better conveys a message that reads "f**k off and don't even think about coming into our waters" than a 6000 tonne destroyer and squadron of FFG's, backed up by air and flexible submarine offence/backstop.  [preferably stationed just outside of the potential enemy's harbour!!]

BTW, is there  a predicted world wide shortage of FFG's and DDG's amongst our allies? ... because if there isn't, it's pretty difficult to convince the government and tax payers that we need ships like that to support our allies. Especially since we don't support our own people overseas. Defence, like charity, properly begins at home and some people like to think we live in a condo.  

Too bad only a privileged few see and understand the benefits of what the current Navy does,[or should be doing] but then again it's the Navy's own fault for keeping a low profile until the crap hits the fan. There may be plans for the future, but they aren't set in stone because there is no tangible willingness to commit, partly based on the mis-perception that there is no ongoing threat.   Every military procurement decision carries with it a political risk analysis, and the potential political risks always overrule the actual needs of security and defence.  

I don't mean to sound depressing but if Brock was still alive,with a tear in his eye he would turn his back ... at least he could look his men in the eye and say he tried. Any Brock's out there?  

 

[Inch]

We're not under Navy command. Our command still lies at 1CAD. We're just attached to the Navy when we're embarked.

It would be far easier for the Navy to take over Naval Aviation (as it should be) than it would be for the Army to become sailors.


How do you figure? The navy hasn't been flying aircraft in 36 years. Blame it on unification, under unification, all air assets belong to the air element and all naval assets belong to the naval element, so unless you go back to separate forces, you're not going to see Naval pilots any time soon.  If you're talking about the uniform we wear, well you could put a navy uniform on MH crews just as easily as you could put army uniforms on sailors. Either that or you start from scratch and train everyone up. Either way your take on the situation is ridiculous to think one is easier than the other.

 

[FSTO]

It would be far easier for the Navy to take over Naval Aviation (as it should be) than it would be for the Army to become sailors.


How do you figure? The navy hasn't been flying aircraft in 36 years. Blame it on unification, under unification, all air assets belong to the air element and all naval assets belong to the naval element, so unless you go back to separate forces, you're not going to see Naval pilots any time soon.  If you're talking about the uniform we wear, well you could put a navy uniform on MH crews just as easily as you could put army uniforms on sailors. Either that or you start from scratch and train everyone up. Either way your take on the situation is ridiculous to think one is easier than the other.

I should have made my point more clearly. Tranfer the entire rotary wing to the Navy, because in my conversations with most helo pilots is that the fighter jocks who run the airforce do not give a damn about the Maritime Air Dets. The Navy already has the infrastructure, the knowledge and experience to really own maritime air.

 

[Inch]

How do you figure? The navy hasn't been flying aircraft in 36 years. Blame it on unification, under unification, all air assets belong to the air element and all naval assets belong to the naval element, so unless you go back to separate forces, you're not going to see Naval pilots any time soon.   If you're talking about the uniform we wear, well you could put a navy uniform on MH crews just as easily as you could put army uniforms on sailors. Either that or you start from scratch and train everyone up. Either way your take on the situation is ridiculous to think one is easier than the other.

I should have made my point more clearly. Tranfer the entire rotary wing to the Navy, because in my conversations with most helo pilots is that the fighter jocks who run the airforce do not give a damn about the Maritime Air Dets. The Navy already has the infrastructure, the knowledge and experience to really own maritime air.

Ah, seen. Though to be perfectly honest, at least the jet jocks know a thing or two about flying, even if they don't give a damn about us. The Navy doesn't have that knowledge and is no better demonstrated than the constant complaints about the crew rest that the MH dets get. If they had a schmick about flying, they'd understand why we need it, moving in 3 dimensions at 3 times the speed of a Frigate is why. The crew rest is mandated by 1 CAD, I highly doubt the Navy would have the same concern.  An exhausted aircrew leads to crashes and fatalities. Sure you could mandate that from the Navy standpoint, but how many changes of command would that survive without an aircrew perspective from higher up?

On top of that, the fishheads would have to put up with the possibility of having pilots as commanders, you can't just top a pilot at LtCol/Sqn Comd level. Like that would ever fly (pardon the pun) with the navy types.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

On the flip side can you imagine a naval captain with no aviation experience being put in command of helicopter squadron? The system works why mess with it?

 

[FSTO]

I should have made my point more clearly. Tranfer the entire rotary wing to the Navy, because in my conversations with most helo pilots is that the fighter jocks who run the airforce do not give a darn about the Maritime Air Dets. The Navy already has the infrastructure, the knowledge and experience to really own maritime air.

Ah, seen. Though to be perfectly honest, at least the jet jocks know a thing or two about flying, even if they don't give a darn about us. The Navy doesn't have that knowledge and is no better demonstrated than the constant complaints about the crew rest that the MH dets get. If they had a schmick about flying, they'd understand why we need it, moving in 3 dimensions at 3 times the speed of a Frigate is why. The crew rest is mandated by 1 CAD, I highly doubt the Navy would have the same concern.  An exhausted aircrew leads to crashes and fatalities. Sure you could mandate that from the Navy standpoint, but how many changes of command would that survive without an aircrew perspective from higher up?

On top of that, the fishheads would have to put up with the possibility of having pilots as commanders, you can't just top a pilot at LtCol/Sqn Comd level. Like that would ever fly (pardon the pun) with the navy types.

well having the Navy run maritime air seems to work everywhere else in the world?

Okay, here is how it goes:
Everyone goes to Venture do MARS training get a BWK (pers desig as pilots could go as far as MCDV BWK)
Pilot/Air Navigator/FNO/AAWD/SAC/ASWD/ all director level course (if you wash out of pilot training we still have a guy to go do a D level)
Pilot can become Air Det Commander or squadron Cdr if so desired
Pilots who want to become Ship CO's go on to ORO course
Get command qualified
Ships XO
Ships CO

There would be some hiccups (maybe alot!)
Would this happen? Never
Just like the Armed Forces able to do joint ops if the attitude on this board is any reflection of the mind-set.

 

[Inch]

Ah, seen. Though to be perfectly honest, at least the jet jocks know a thing or two about flying, even if they don't give a darn about us. The Navy doesn't have that knowledge and is no better demonstrated than the constant complaints about the crew rest that the MH dets get. If they had a schmick about flying, they'd understand why we need it, moving in 3 dimensions at 3 times the speed of a Frigate is why. The crew rest is mandated by 1 CAD, I highly doubt the Navy would have the same concern.   An exhausted aircrew leads to crashes and fatalities. Sure you could mandate that from the Navy standpoint, but how many changes of command would that survive without an aircrew perspective from higher up?

On top of that, the fishheads would have to put up with the possibility of having pilots as commanders, you can't just top a pilot at LtCol/Sqn Comd level. Like that would ever fly (pardon the pun) with the navy types.

well having the Navy run maritime air seems to work everywhere else in the world?

Okay, here is how it goes:
Everyone goes to Venture do MARS training get a BWK (pers desig as pilots could go as far as MCDV BWK)
Pilot/Air Navigator/FNO/AAWD/SAC/ASWD/ all director level course (if you wash out of pilot training we still have a guy to go do a D level)
Pilot can become Air Det Commander or squadron Cdr if so desired
Pilots who want to become Ship CO's go on to ORO course
Get command qualified
Ships XO
Ships CO

There would be some hiccups (maybe alot!)
Would this happen? Never
Just like the Armed Forces able to do joint ops if the attitude on this board is any reflection of the mind-set.

Sure, the navy runs air ops everywhere else, how many of those countries have separate forces and not unified forces? But just to put this to rest, I'll ask my USN Pilot coworker how things work down there, I'd be willing to bet it's pretty similar to here except they wear the same uniform.

Maybe you can explain why a pilot would need a bridge watch keeping ticket and only on an MCDV that we'd never be deployed on? Is that so we can do watch after a full day of flying? Sounds like we'll get our crew rest alright. Or are you trying to say that MARS training isn't that difficult that a Pilot could learn it too on top of all the flying related stuff?

So, on top of 2 + years of pilot training, you're going to throw MARS training in there, plus university, BOTC, & SLT for a total time in the system of what? 8 years? I'm sure you'd have recruits banging down the door. I know I would have told you to stuff it and I would have went TacHel or Multi.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

There would be some hiccups (maybe alot!)
Would this happen? Never
Just like the Armed Forces able to do joint ops if the attitude on this board is any reflection of the mind-set.

I love how people imply we are closed minded to new ideas if we point out flaws in their ideas, don't you Inch?

 

[Inch]

You know I do!  ;D

 

[hugh19]

Ok I may be a big history buff but, when the fleet air arm was around prior to unification. Loe and behold pilots after there first tour flying went to a ship and got there BWK. Then went back to flying another tour. BY the late 60's most ships had a Pilot as a CO.

Scary but true.

 

[Inch]

sledge, thanks for the info. The point I was making is that unless you're actually doing watches, what's the point in having a BWK as part of the initial training? We're not going to be doing watches during a flying tour, and from an individual standpoint, I'd much rather have the option to fly other aircraft than be railroaded into a Navy job that I didn't want nor ask for.

 

[Cloud Cover]

I believe the correct term is "press ganged."

"Railroaded" was the term for "volunteers" who built wooden boardwalks for supplies in Flanders.

   

 

[FSTO]

sledge, thanks for the info. The point I was making is that unless you're actually doing watches, what's the point in having a BWK as part of the initial training? We're not going to be doing watches during a flying tour, and from an individual standpoint, I'd much rather have the option to fly other aircraft than be railroaded into a Navy job that I didn't want nor ask for.

Its called having a full appreciation of what is involved in the naval environment. Being a Sailor first and a tradesman second. Why do you think there are things called "all ship" evolutions? Like RAS, coming alongside, coming to a buoy, coming to anchour, light jackstays, etc. The one of the best things that I see is when a purple trade (who we use as a part ship communicator) comes on a ship thinking that all they are going to do is logistics, paperwork, or cooking and they find out they are doing a myriad of things from fire fighting to boatwork.
The BWK gives you the perspecitive of what the OOW has to do up there to ensure that you have a safe deck to land on. Or why the OOW is not giviing the LSO a green deck because of numerous other actions going on that has a higher priority than the helicopter,
Why not do watches during a flying tour, especially when the helo is busted? Which looks like that will be the norm until the Cyclones get into service.
Air Crew rest, as a BWK standing 1 in 3, sailing in zero vis, the entire crew your responsibility, do you not think they need some  mandated down time. Then on top of this all of the admin work that we have to do, on top of our regular watches and you wonder why the Wardroom rolls their eyes when you guys go on about how tired you are.

Anyway as I said above, this will never happen and don't even think that we are actually unified. The only combined ops that the CF does is the navy with air dets and tac hel (which with the Griffon is more air recon than anything really tactical).