All things GPS (recommendations, tips, etc.) - merged
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MadNad said:
As Posthumane noted in his post immed above yours, encryption (Y-code, the encrypted variant of P-code tx'd on L2) is not immune to jamming. Spoofing is another issue...as noted earlier, very difficult to do to Y-code units. If someone is jamming a C-code only-unit in theatre, this is not only a waste of time (as most veh/platform-mounted units are P/Y-code enabled) but also dangerous to the health of whatever baddy (assuming it's not US DoD elems) is doing the jamming...ELINT will feed such jamming up the chain PDQ and there'll be a unit taking out the jammers in short order.
I think the general flavour of how guys intend to use GPS in theatre as stated here is sound, i.e. back-up/confirmation of manual nav using your trusty 1:50,000 and compass. I use an eTrex Vista for confirmation of routing, etc...setting in routes and putting auto waypoint on is a nice back-up to navving on the map and driving around...it also provides a nice 8-figure grid if I need to call ARF/QRF on Iridium if something goes poopers with the Cruiser while I'm in the middle of nowhere...
That said, I'm looking for a civy unit, also for road mapping, etc... when I get home and doing travelling around the country (currently borrowing the eTrex Vista from a friend). Sure, it's a bit of "nice to have" but I have to spend some of my FSP on something, right? ;D
That said, I'd like expandability, colour and good mapping (incl topo) and am looking at the Magellan Meridian Color or the eXplorist 500, with the Garmin eTrex Vista C (would prefer to have SD memory expansion, like the Meridian's....)...any more feed back from guys on similar units?
Cheers,
Duey
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In regards to using GPS and road mapping, I'm not sure where the maps are in terms of quality and completeness now, but when I was researching this a while back (not wholeheartedly, as I have no need, but I had an interest), the maps that were available were for the major centers (Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver) and to a smaller degree other bigger cities (Edmonton, Halifax). It seemed that the maps for the US were at a much higher level, but again that is usually the case (Canada vice US), but that can be chalked at to supply/demand.
An issue that I discovered, and hadn't really thought about but it makes sense, is if you are using them in the major centers with the tall office buildings (as you can lose satellite signal), you need to get a system that has another system that "takes over" (via odometer and digital compass) to figure out where you are (as the satellite signal coverage disappears). This type of system is in place in the LAVIII and Coyote for if/when the GPS craps out (or similar circumstances as mentioned above - wooded areas, valleys, etc). Admittedly that is more life/death than missing your turn in T.O, but then again if you get into the wrong neighbourhood, maybe not. Again, if you are going to be using this system in these conditions the majority (or even a lot of the time) it's worth investing in (and it DOES add quite a bit of cost, due to installation, etc).
Al
An issue that I discovered, and hadn't really thought about but it makes sense, is if you are using them in the major centers with the tall office buildings (as you can lose satellite signal), you need to get a system that has another system that "takes over" (via odometer and digital compass) to figure out where you are (as the satellite signal coverage disappears). This type of system is in place in the LAVIII and Coyote for if/when the GPS craps out (or similar circumstances as mentioned above - wooded areas, valleys, etc). Admittedly that is more life/death than missing your turn in T.O, but then again if you get into the wrong neighbourhood, maybe not. Again, if you are going to be using this system in these conditions the majority (or even a lot of the time) it's worth investing in (and it DOES add quite a bit of cost, due to installation, etc).
Al
Posthumane
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Grayth said:
If your going to be using a PDA to do mapping with, might as well get a GPS receiver that attaches directly to it rather than a handheld. There are a number of them on the market which use either a serial cable to connect, or go directly through a SD or compact flash port on the PDA. With this setup, you don't have input the coors. manually, but rather have a moving map display that constantly tracks your position. The only drawback is you miss out on the versatility of a handheld receiver (can use without PDA). If you really want to have a handheld like the garmin Etrex, just get a serial cable for it and have it send position data to the PDA automatically through that.
In regards to using the PDA to call in "mortar strikes, etc.", I think that would be a very bad idea. The reason that GPS is fairly secure is that, although it can be jammed or spoofed, it is still a passive system so it doesn't transmit your position. I think using a civilian unit to transmit orders would pose a huge security risk (plus it probably wouldn't work due to the power of WiFi/Bluetooth transmitters in PDA's).
And yes, every RF signal, be it GPS, Bluetooth, Wifi, etc can be jammed.
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In Training Site,
We use very small remote transmitter and antenna with a 24 Volts electrical system (1,8 Watt Output). nearly undetectable.
This transmit the location we want the student to see on his GPS. Each Transmitter covers an area of up to 250m from central location.
It portable and fits perfectly in a buttpack. It could be deployed anywere you want.
This system is COTS. It is a helpfull tool for running simulation and train peoples. If it can be used for training it can be used for other purposes.
If you could see what it can do, and some of us (Trainer) can have fun sometimes. Canadian Forces EW peoples are getting good at playing those little games.
Imagine calling Artillery/Mortar or Tac Air in the wrong Grid Square. We did something like that to a Section Commander that always used his civie GPS because he did not like the military issued one. We made him call a fire mission on his own location. (Simulation) He was kind of very pissed off. He basically failed and did beleive us after when we said that civi GPS are not for Ops.
Also see the GPS (PLGR or DAGR) as part of a system. Automated.(Not hunanly monitored) I.E Athena/SAS Shipbased or other. VERY VERY VERY DANGEROUS
We use very small remote transmitter and antenna with a 24 Volts electrical system (1,8 Watt Output). nearly undetectable.
This transmit the location we want the student to see on his GPS. Each Transmitter covers an area of up to 250m from central location.
It portable and fits perfectly in a buttpack. It could be deployed anywere you want.
This system is COTS. It is a helpfull tool for running simulation and train peoples. If it can be used for training it can be used for other purposes.
If you could see what it can do, and some of us (Trainer) can have fun sometimes. Canadian Forces EW peoples are getting good at playing those little games.
Imagine calling Artillery/Mortar or Tac Air in the wrong Grid Square. We did something like that to a Section Commander that always used his civie GPS because he did not like the military issued one. We made him call a fire mission on his own location. (Simulation) He was kind of very pissed off. He basically failed and did beleive us after when we said that civi GPS are not for Ops.
Also see the GPS (PLGR or DAGR) as part of a system. Automated.(Not hunanly monitored) I.E Athena/SAS Shipbased or other. VERY VERY VERY DANGEROUS
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Am I alone in believing that the Taliban spoofing our GPS is a little far-fetched, even if it is theoretically possible?
We (and our allies) have significant EW assets in country, and even a 50Mw signature can be picked up instantly, so what is the problem?
The use of spoofing technology would only serve to garner our attention and attract an attack, so other than being a rather unreliable way to lure us for an ambush, what makes you think that their limited assets are not better used elsewhere?
It is always the sigs types who jump up and down and point out the deficiencies in our systems, but when was the last time you actually did something crafty to the enemy?
You spoofed an NCO on an ex in Borden, good for you, lets see you save our skins or locate the bad guys.
We (and our allies) have significant EW assets in country, and even a 50Mw signature can be picked up instantly, so what is the problem?
The use of spoofing technology would only serve to garner our attention and attract an attack, so other than being a rather unreliable way to lure us for an ambush, what makes you think that their limited assets are not better used elsewhere?
It is always the sigs types who jump up and down and point out the deficiencies in our systems, but when was the last time you actually did something crafty to the enemy?
You spoofed an NCO on an ex in Borden, good for you, lets see you save our skins or locate the bad guys.
Nope.
And I also believe that, were a GPS to be spoofed by the enemy, that a switched-on soldier would notice almost immediately.
GPS is a very handy *aid* to naviation, but it isn't the only tool in the box, and I constantly cross-check my GPS against my map and what I see around me.
If it gets spoofed by more than a couple of hundred metres, I'll (probably) notice.
DG
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To put my past-EWO hat on, it would take a pretty high level of sophistication to both technically and intelligence-wise spoof a GPS signal by enough to make a difference, yet not enough to raise an obvious flag, and in all cases, avoid being detected by certain "assets in theatre" and subsequently having a CAS mission put some drama down on your case.
Point should be well taken, that GPS is an AID, not a primary means of navigation. I use it to confirm what I believe my map-nav'd position solution to be...when it goes down, I still have a warm fuzzy of at least having a four and more likely six-digit grid.
Cheers,
Duey
Point should be well taken, that GPS is an AID, not a primary means of navigation. I use it to confirm what I believe my map-nav'd position solution to be...when it goes down, I still have a warm fuzzy of at least having a four and more likely six-digit grid.
Cheers,
Duey
for the best battery life the newer garmin legendC is great. AA alkalines give more than double the hours over the monochrome legend and summit. 30hr. or all day with NiMh rechargables. the multi level backlight control allows much more night use as well as with the lowest backlight current draw doesn't seem to increase much over daylight use
the color screen is also more readable than the monochrome screens so more detail can be picked up in a quick glance. it also has 24Mb map memory instead of the 8mb of the older legend. it also uses a common "mini usb to usb" cable to attach to your computer which means chances are your, or anyone elses, digital camera or flash memory reader cables can be used for download/upload in an emergency
the latest version of garmins mapsource software, 6.9, now allows the tracks and waypoints to be viewed in google earth without having to pay google any extra $20
the newest garmin legendCx is about to come out with a memory card slot if you need up to 128mb of map memory, (maybe if you buy topo maps or do a lot of driving you need that much memory)
the main advantage of the Cx coming out though is that dealers are now discounting the legendC heavily, US$200?
the helix ant./ on the magellans and bigger garmins is more directional than the patch ant. on the etrex. so a magellan will get a better signal under trees of the sats straight up but the garmin will be better able to track lots of sats in the open and so give better accuracy
garmin "marketing", but not "support" have been very good about sending me parts out of warranty as well
eric e
happy garmin customer
the color screen is also more readable than the monochrome screens so more detail can be picked up in a quick glance. it also has 24Mb map memory instead of the 8mb of the older legend. it also uses a common "mini usb to usb" cable to attach to your computer which means chances are your, or anyone elses, digital camera or flash memory reader cables can be used for download/upload in an emergency
the latest version of garmins mapsource software, 6.9, now allows the tracks and waypoints to be viewed in google earth without having to pay google any extra $20
the newest garmin legendCx is about to come out with a memory card slot if you need up to 128mb of map memory, (maybe if you buy topo maps or do a lot of driving you need that much memory)
the main advantage of the Cx coming out though is that dealers are now discounting the legendC heavily, US$200?
the helix ant./ on the magellans and bigger garmins is more directional than the patch ant. on the etrex. so a magellan will get a better signal under trees of the sats straight up but the garmin will be better able to track lots of sats in the open and so give better accuracy
garmin "marketing", but not "support" have been very good about sending me parts out of warranty as well
eric e
happy garmin customer
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But it STILL won't tell me where in the bejayzus I am, will it?
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I have been member of SAR group in B.C. for over 10 years.PEP in B.C.like groups to use Garmins etrexs I have owned Garmin 45XL ,12 and now have etrex legend C.It is so far the best one I have owned.It is simple to use. Good maps can be down load to it.Good battery life
up to 36 hours on two 1.5 volt AA batteries. It well pick up a signal inside house not like my old one that lost the signal on a cloudy day.
Have used it in a deep valley that run east west that put me well below the horizon.It worked fine.There are some good accessories for it.
The screen is small but unit is small it weight is only 5.6 ounces (159g) I can not say is any better than any of the other GPS unit because
I have not used any.
up to 36 hours on two 1.5 volt AA batteries. It well pick up a signal inside house not like my old one that lost the signal on a cloudy day.
Have used it in a deep valley that run east west that put me well below the horizon.It worked fine.There are some good accessories for it.
The screen is small but unit is small it weight is only 5.6 ounces (159g) I can not say is any better than any of the other GPS unit because
I have not used any.
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Some were in this Posting someone wrote about the GPS unit not keeping it Altimeter zero
I have talked to couple people that use GPS for plotting forestry roads cut blocks etc
They told me that if you want an accurate elevation you should goto a known elevation and zero the unit to that elevation.
I asked them if they did this every time they used there units and was told only if elevation accuracy was needed.
I have talked to couple people that use GPS for plotting forestry roads cut blocks etc
They told me that if you want an accurate elevation you should goto a known elevation and zero the unit to that elevation.
I asked them if they did this every time they used there units and was told only if elevation accuracy was needed.
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Which brings me to this: I am currently looking at upgrading to a newer civ GPS unit. I am using the Etrex legend right now and am thinking about the Legend C, the Legend Cx or the 60Cs... any input? I have all the mapping software I need including topo and I think the colour screen will be a big plus. I am heading to the field on the 20th of Feb and am pretty sure www.gpscentral.ca can get me a new unit by that time. Any comments?
NL_engineer
Army.ca Veteran
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Buzz, you could move up to the Vista C. It should use the same maps/cables/ cases/etc that you have for the Legend. You should ask before you buy if the maps you have are in colour, or it will probably work the same as the one you have.
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Rather add to an old topic than waste bandwidth,
I'm going to buy a Magellan explorist 200 GPS system and am wondering if on civilian GPS units,if the electronic compass can be set to use mils rather than deg for nav?
Not a big issue as I am using a compass as primary nav,but it would still be nice to have a reasonable back-up that uses the same units of bearing.
I'm going to buy a Magellan explorist 200 GPS system and am wondering if on civilian GPS units,if the electronic compass can be set to use mils rather than deg for nav?
Not a big issue as I am using a compass as primary nav,but it would still be nice to have a reasonable back-up that uses the same units of bearing.
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My eTrex Summitt(?) has the electronic compass, and can be calibrated to show mils, so the Magellan SHOULD be able to, as it's a simple mathematical process to determine mils from degrees (6400(mils) divided by 360 (degrees) = 17.78 mils per degree). If it doesn't do it for you, carry a calculator ;D. And most GPS's have a calculator built in(IIRC).
For what it's worth, the electronic compass (on my model, anyway) isn't that accurate, as it has to be perfectly level to get an accurate bearing. From what I remember when researching the different models, there are Magellan's that have better antennas (3 axes) that are more accurate. To be honest, I've only used the electronic compass a few times, and relied on my backup compass (ALWAYS carry a compass!!!) for bearings.
Al
For what it's worth, the electronic compass (on my model, anyway) isn't that accurate, as it has to be perfectly level to get an accurate bearing. From what I remember when researching the different models, there are Magellan's that have better antennas (3 axes) that are more accurate. To be honest, I've only used the electronic compass a few times, and relied on my backup compass (ALWAYS carry a compass!!!) for bearings.
Al
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I highly recommend www.gpscentral.ca for any GPS stuff, ask and they WILL give a military discount though it is not listed anywhere. I just bought a new Garmin GPSmap 60C from them and my Etrex Legend is still going strong, though it's a little beat up. For information you can try the forums on www.geocaching.com, there a many GPS tech geeks there that can help with a lot of stuff.
Am I alone in believing that the Taliban spoofing our GPS is a little far-fetched, even if it is theoretically possible?
Its not theoretically possible. It is possible, its been done. If a GPS can recieve a signal, then someone can send a different signal for the GPS to recieve. Dont underestimate the Taliban, or Al Queda, or whomever it is. They are vast networks or people with hordes of money and fanatical support. There have been cases of GPS jamming throughout the wars of 2000. They sometimes may not be jamming your vehicle or handheld GPS specifically but they may be jamming the GPS in precision munitions (its been done). The side effect is it also affecting your GPS.
Nobody really made a strong point as to why you shouldnt use a civilian GPS so I will try.
You should NEVER, EVER use a civilian GPS in theatre for any operational goals. Not ever! A civilian GPS is very suseptible (sp?) to jamming and spoofing. Would you take the risk that your GPS can be spoofed? The result being that your leading a patrol into an ambush. If you were lucky enough to survive you'd no doubt be punted from the military since you willfully placed men and women in danger because you ignored what is right. At the very least that should be your driving factor, if the men and women behind you are not. This is pure negligence towards your duty and brethren. Think about it another way. Are you using your cellphone to call in grids of friendly positions? Well if you think that is bad, then by this same reasoning a civilian GPS is bad.
On the other subject. No it does not replace a map and compass, but a GPS is more accurate. They both have thier own jobs they are good at. With the new DAGR you can put a map in the GPS, and the DAGR acts as a satellite driven compass. Your only limitation is how well you type with your thumbs and double A batteries. The advantages of GPS far outweight the advantages of map and compass IMO, accuracy is the single most important feature. The biggest limitation of map and compass, is that most people cannot extract an accurate 10 figure plus grid on a 1:50,000 map. You NEED a GPS for this. As you can probably tell from my statements and your own experience, slowly but surely, the GPS is taking all the jobs map & compass do. Its doing the jobs with more accuracy, ease of use and more compatibility with our current comms systems, ie: SAS. Soon those that believe the GPS is a backup for M&C will believe quite the opposite.
Its not theoretically possible. It is possible, its been done. If a GPS can recieve a signal, then someone can send a different signal for the GPS to recieve. Dont underestimate the Taliban, or Al Queda, or whomever it is. They are vast networks or people with hordes of money and fanatical support. There have been cases of GPS jamming throughout the wars of 2000. They sometimes may not be jamming your vehicle or handheld GPS specifically but they may be jamming the GPS in precision munitions (its been done). The side effect is it also affecting your GPS.
Nobody really made a strong point as to why you shouldnt use a civilian GPS so I will try.
You should NEVER, EVER use a civilian GPS in theatre for any operational goals. Not ever! A civilian GPS is very suseptible (sp?) to jamming and spoofing. Would you take the risk that your GPS can be spoofed? The result being that your leading a patrol into an ambush. If you were lucky enough to survive you'd no doubt be punted from the military since you willfully placed men and women in danger because you ignored what is right. At the very least that should be your driving factor, if the men and women behind you are not. This is pure negligence towards your duty and brethren. Think about it another way. Are you using your cellphone to call in grids of friendly positions? Well if you think that is bad, then by this same reasoning a civilian GPS is bad.
On the other subject. No it does not replace a map and compass, but a GPS is more accurate. They both have thier own jobs they are good at. With the new DAGR you can put a map in the GPS, and the DAGR acts as a satellite driven compass. Your only limitation is how well you type with your thumbs and double A batteries. The advantages of GPS far outweight the advantages of map and compass IMO, accuracy is the single most important feature. The biggest limitation of map and compass, is that most people cannot extract an accurate 10 figure plus grid on a 1:50,000 map. You NEED a GPS for this. As you can probably tell from my statements and your own experience, slowly but surely, the GPS is taking all the jobs map & compass do. Its doing the jobs with more accuracy, ease of use and more compatibility with our current comms systems, ie: SAS. Soon those that believe the GPS is a backup for M&C will believe quite the opposite.
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I am a firm believer in the use of technology to aid soldiers, but I think that your account, MOOXE, is a little too breathless on the capabilities and limitations of the PLGR/DAGR or any GPS receiver.
To imply that they will replace the map and compass (as a primary means of navigation) is not also heretical, but downright foolish. To rely that much on something powered by batteries and silicon chips is foolhardy and/or negligent, which you state using a civilian GPS would be due to spoofing. I would say placing the amount of faith that you do in any GPS receiver (whether it is civvy or secret squirrel) is borderline insane. Don't get me wrong: I fully believe in using them, and given the choice between carrying a GPS and carrying sniv kit, I would go with the GPS, for the reasons you gave (accuracy, ease of use, which the old PLGR didn't exactly fulfill). Saying that a map and compass will be relegated to backup status will cause people to use the GPS as the crutch that it has wrongly been blamed for in the past, and make those that rely strictly on GPS more susceptible to cases of where people will have
There are many factors that can cause a GPS receiver to present the wrong information to the user, and spoofing is only one of the myriad ways. Environmental effects, atmospheric conditions, electrical/mechanical issues. Something as simple as having the antenna covered and not noticing the "MSF" warning (that the old PLGR gave, not sure what the DAGR has... stands for Minutes Since Fix, or when the last "good" signal was received) can cause a grid to be off by huge amounts, and if the user is poorly trained (as I was, once upon a time) a wrong grid will be plotted. It is up to the user to determine if the data presented by the GPS unit is accurate, and go from there. Use it if it appears to be accurate, bin it if it is out to lunch. And without the map (and/or compass) skills that a soldier should have, determining what is good or bad is impossible.
As an aside, a GPS without a map (whether it is old school paper or a hi-tech map embedded in a GPS) is pretty much useless, as it only tells you on earth where you are, based on radio signals. You NEED a map to plot yourself according to the grid/coordinates that the fancy-dancy machinery that the CF (or electronics store) provided you with. And your logic of
Allan
Poorly trained user of PLGR and civvy GPS's since '96
To imply that they will replace the map and compass (as a primary means of navigation) is not also heretical, but downright foolish. To rely that much on something powered by batteries and silicon chips is foolhardy and/or negligent, which you state using a civilian GPS would be due to spoofing. I would say placing the amount of faith that you do in any GPS receiver (whether it is civvy or secret squirrel) is borderline insane. Don't get me wrong: I fully believe in using them, and given the choice between carrying a GPS and carrying sniv kit, I would go with the GPS, for the reasons you gave (accuracy, ease of use, which the old PLGR didn't exactly fulfill). Saying that a map and compass will be relegated to backup status will cause people to use the GPS as the crutch that it has wrongly been blamed for in the past, and make those that rely strictly on GPS more susceptible to cases of where people will have
.
There are many factors that can cause a GPS receiver to present the wrong information to the user, and spoofing is only one of the myriad ways. Environmental effects, atmospheric conditions, electrical/mechanical issues. Something as simple as having the antenna covered and not noticing the "MSF" warning (that the old PLGR gave, not sure what the DAGR has... stands for Minutes Since Fix, or when the last "good" signal was received) can cause a grid to be off by huge amounts, and if the user is poorly trained (as I was, once upon a time) a wrong grid will be plotted. It is up to the user to determine if the data presented by the GPS unit is accurate, and go from there. Use it if it appears to be accurate, bin it if it is out to lunch. And without the map (and/or compass) skills that a soldier should have, determining what is good or bad is impossible.
As an aside, a GPS without a map (whether it is old school paper or a hi-tech map embedded in a GPS) is pretty much useless, as it only tells you on earth where you are, based on radio signals. You NEED a map to plot yourself according to the grid/coordinates that the fancy-dancy machinery that the CF (or electronics store) provided you with. And your logic of
is unsound: too many people think that, due to all the fancy gear that we have now, there is no requirement to use good voice procedure (using reference points or veiled speech rather than using plain speech to give friendly positions). That is based on the assumption that "they" don't have the technology to crack our technology (remember the Germans and their "impenetrable" codes???) or use captured equipment to monitor our comms. A civilian GPS that might be spoofed is no more or no less dangerous (and I would argue far less dangerous in most cases) than someone who insists on sending friendly information in clear under the misguided notion that our "secure" comms won't be monitored or breeched by "them".
Allan
Poorly trained user of PLGR and civvy GPS's since '96
