All things Charlottesville (merged)

[The Bread Guy]

New Jersey's Dep't of Homeland Security assesses the threat pretty much down the middle after seeing Charlottesville (source - NJDHS Week in Review document also attached):

Demonstrations Complicated by Attendance of Militia ‘Security’ Forces and Antifa Militants

Politicians and police worry that armed militia members, who attended recent protests in Boston, Portland, Oregon, and Charlottesville, Virginia, could inflame tensions at upcoming demonstrations and complicate law enforcement response. Authorities are also concerned about more clashes between militia members and Antifa activists, far-left militants often armed with bats and improvised weapons. These groups brawled during the white nationalist rally in Charlottesville on August 12. An Ohio man who stood with the white nationalists is accused of later driving a car into a crowd of counter-protesters, killing one person. Some militia members, including those in groups such as the Oath Keepers and Three Percenters, maintain that they provide security. Police counter that such assistance is not wanted, and a lack of coordination creates problems.

(...)

 

[mariomike]

The alt-right people didn't show up with army cam and rifles, nazi flags, and chanting racist slurs to host a peaceful exchange of ideas about the issue of statues

Nazi rallies are politically provocative and socially disruptive.

That was the tactic when they targeted the predominantly Jewish community of Skokie, Illinois in the 1970's.

The more moderate members of the community wanted to ignore the neo-Nazis. To "quarantine" and ignore them and refuse to be provoked. The logic was if the community refused to acknowledge the Nazis and refuse to feed the media any publicity, the rally would be futile and eventually forgotten.

On the other hand, some Holocaust survivors remembered that they were told to ignore the Nazis in pre-war Germany, and before they knew it, were in concentration camps.

The decision was made to take action. To shed blood if necessary.

Jimmy Carter was president then, so less likely to blame "both sides". To claim there was a false moral equivalency between Nazis and those who oppose them. He had served in the military during the war and understood the difference.

To avoid a violent confrontation with the Jewish Defense League, the ACLU negotiated a compromise where the Nazis would not march in Skokie but instead they would be allowed to rally in a Chicago park.

 

[mariomike]

Reply #420

"Some militia members, including those in groups such as the Oath Keepers and Three Percenters, maintain that they provide security. Police counter that such assistance is not wanted, and a lack of coordination creates problems."

eg: At a demonstration in Texas, twenty to thirty of the marchers showed up with AR-15s and other types of military-style rifles. A sniper opened fire on police officers who were accompanying the marchers. As the attack unfolded, it made it difficult for officers to distinguish between suspects and marchers.

Two men who were armed were detained. This led the police to mistakenly believe there was more than one shooter.

The police chief said when the shooting started, because they ( the twenty to thirty of the marchers showed up with AR-15s and other types of military-style rifles ) ran in the middle of the shooting, police on the scene viewed them as suspects: "Someone is shooting at you from a perched position, and people are running with AR-15s and camo gear and gas masks and bulletproof vests, they are suspects, until we eliminate that."

 

[Blackadder1916]

To avoid a violent confrontation with the Jewish Defense League, the ACLU negotiated a compromise where the Nazis would not march in Skokie but instead they would be allowed to rally in a Chicago park.

Do you have a reference that the ACLU "negotiated a compromise"?  The "Skokie Nazis" is probably the most well known (though probably not accurately known) activity by the ACLU within the memory of those of us of a certain age.  While the ACLU represented the NSPA and Mr. Collins (the Illinois Nazi leader) in their lawsuits based on a violation of first amendment rights, I don't think there was any "negotiation".  A very well done timeline and discussion of the events is available at the Skokie Public Library.

 

[mariomike]

Do you have a reference that the ACLU "negotiated a compromise"? 

That is the way I understood it.

I could be wrong, but I suspect Frank Collin was made aware that if he held his rally in Skokie, that there would be resistance from the Jewish Defence League. So he took the hint and agreed to hold the rally in Chicago, "where they were outnumbered and jeered by thousands of counter-protesters."

"To avoid a violent confrontation with the Jewish Defense League, the ACLU negotiated a compromise where the NSPA would not march in Skokie but instead Chicago would allow the group to return to the park."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquette_Park_(Chicago)#Neo-Nazi_protests
( Usual Wikipedia caveat. )

"In a compromise negotiated through the US Justice Department's Community Relations Service, he ( Frank Collin ) agreed to demonstrate at Federal Plaza in downtown Chicago."
In Defense of American Liberties: A History of the ACLU
Chapter: Skokie: Crisis and Recovery 1977 - 1979
Page 327

'Swastika war': When the neo-Nazis fought in court to march in Skokie
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/commentary/ct-neo-nazi-skokie-march-flashback-perspec-0312-20170310-story.html
"But Collin did float his idea of a compromise. He wouldn't march in Skokie if his group was allowed to hold a rally in Marquette Park."

The day I sided with the Nazis
http://www.philly.com/philly/columnists/stu_bykofsky/the-day-i-sided-with-the-nazis-20170814.html
"In the end, the Nazis compromised and held a rally in Chicago rather than the march through Skokie,"

Charlottesville and Skokie have been frequently compared in 2017,
https://www.google.ca/search?q=skokie+charlottesville&biw=1280&bih=603&source=lnt&tbs=cdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A8%2F3%2F2017%2Ccd_max%3A8%2F29%2F2017&tbm=

 

[kkwd]

I think Charlottesville was not a political event. It was probably deemed one by a media genius when they decided that a street fight between a bunch of clowns and a mob of idiots wouldn't draw readers. Why does something like this need a political slant to it, isn't it bad enough as is?

 

[mariomike]

I think Charlottesville was not a political event.

It's in Global Politics, so we consider it "a political event".

 

[kkwd]

It's in Global Politics, so we consider it "a political event".

Perfect, thank you. I couldn't really see it anyplace else.

 

[The Bread Guy]

I think Charlottesville was not a political event. It was probably deemed one by a media genius when they decided that a street fight between a bunch of clowns and a mob of idiots wouldn't draw readers ...

So you think maybe the organizers had at least some political intent when they called it "Unite the Right" - see attached posters - or did they mean to unite right-handed shoes, socks or gloves?  I'm comfortable going by the words used by the organizers.

Meanwhile, in case a bit more background is desired, since naming of U.S. mil facilities after Confederates has been mentioned earlier in the thread, here's a 3-pager from the U.S. Congressional Research Service on what facilities are named for Confederate folks, and the rules around naming places/ships for the different service branches.

 

[Journeyman]

So you think maybe the organizers had at least some political intent .....

For whatever reason, kkwd has developed a hate-on for calling political things "political" in several threads.    :dunno:

I can't see what the last few posts have to do with US politics in 2017. Is it because it is some politician's fault?

I think Charlottesville was not a political event. It was probably deemed one by a media genius when they decided that a street fight between a bunch of clowns and a mob of idiots wouldn't draw readers. Why does something like this need a political slant to it, isn't it bad enough as is?

 

[kkwd]

For whatever reason, kkwd has developed a hate-on for calling political things "political" in several threads.    :dunno:

I see now it is correctly called a politically motivated event. I'm just a random guy on the internet with an opinion, you know full well how that is.

 

[kkwd]

Way to go Nancy, these people deserve this.

"Our democracy has no room for inciting violence or endangering the public, no matter the ideology of those who commit such acts," Pelosi said in a statement. "The violent actions of people calling themselves antifa in Berkeley this weekend deserve unequivocal condemnation, and the perpetrators should be arrested and prosecuted."

http://thehill.com/homenews/house/348493-pelosi-condemns-anitfa-after-berkeley-clashes

 

[kkwd]

These people have good intentions. But what kind of scum and villainy are they going to attract once they get to Washington for what they call "DC Action"?

http://www.cville2dc.us/

 

[EpicBeardedMan]

These people have good intentions. But what kind of scum and villainy are they going to attract once they get to Washington for what they call "DC Action"?

http://www.cville2dc.us/

Sounds like a big 'ol waste of time. Good luck trying to remove the President from office with hurt feelings..

"For years, white supremacist violence, rhetoric, and policies have escalated and intensified – exploding during Donald Trump’s run for president and reaching a boiling point in Charlottesville, as courageous people of moral conscience stood up to an army of white nationalists, neo-Nazis, and members of the KKK.

This is the time for us to stand up for justice and equality. This is the time to confront white supremacy in our government and throughout our history. We demand that President Trump be removed from office for allying himself with this ideology of hate and we demand an agenda that repairs the damage it's done to our country and its people."

Can't wait. op:

 

[kkwd]

Sounds like a big 'ol waste of time. Good luck trying to remove the President from office with hurt feelings..

"For years, white supremacist violence, rhetoric, and policies have escalated and intensified – exploding during Donald Trump’s run for president and reaching a boiling point in Charlottesville, as courageous people of moral conscience stood up to an army of white nationalists, neo-Nazis, and members of the KKK.

This is the time for us to stand up for justice and equality. This is the time to confront white supremacy in our government and throughout our history. We demand that President Trump be removed from office for allying himself with this ideology of hate and we demand an agenda that repairs the damage it's done to our country and its people."

Can't wait. op:

I support them in one way, their stand against supremacy. Well partially, they say it is against white supremacy, it would make more sense to march against all supremacy no matter the race of the people. As for the rest like governmental change, that is just plain flaky. But at least they provide teh following on the march:

“vegetarian, vegan, and gluten-free” meals will be provided.

 

[EpicBeardedMan]

I support them in one way, their stand against supremacy. Well partially, they say it is against white supremacy, it would make more sense to march against all supremacy no matter the race of the people. As for the rest like governmental change, that is just plain flaky. But at least they provide teh following on the march:

What white supremacy, specifically in the Government, exists though? Genuinely curious, because any antifa interview I've seen on youtube where they are asked why Trump is racist they can't produce any quote or example of racism.

 

[kkwd]

What white supremacy, specifically in the Government, exists though? Genuinely curious, because any antifa interview I've seen on youtube where they are asked why Trump is racist they can't produce any quote or example of racism.

You can see the deep effects of Charlottesville, there is a boogeyman around every corner now.

 

[EpicBeardedMan]

You can see the deep effects of Charlottesville, there is a boogeyman around every corner now.

It's been like that since Trump was a serious threat for Presidency. The sheep just repeat what they're told by mainstream media and Facebook.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CbJ9ivUE9E&t=

Fleccas' videos are just really spot on and hilarious. Highly recommend.

 

[kkwd]

It's been like that since Trump was a serious threat for Presidency. The sheep just repeat what they're told by mainstream media and Facebook.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CbJ9ivUE9E&t=

Fleccas' videos are just really spot on and hilarious. Highly recommend.

I have seen his videos. It was provided as a link from somebody earlier but I can't find the post to give them credit.

 

[EpicBeardedMan]

I have seen his videos. It was provided as a link from somebody earlier but I can't find the post to give them credit.

Was probably me, lol.