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All Things Air Defence/AA (merged)

SeaKingTacco

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I think, if the Army is smart, they look to what the RCN is about to do with CSC. A whole bunch of new missiles and ammo types will have to be qualified. Don’t be clever. Share missile and gun types with the Navy.
 

MilEME09

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Cdn Blackshirt said:
Do you think that config provides enough range given what we've seen in Libya and then Armenia with the Turkish Baktayar (sp?)?

Based on my limited knowledge that system wouldn't give you the required range to protect our troops.

To throw another alternative, given we are sourcing them for the frigates, why not order pre-existing CAMM components("Land Ceptor?") and mount onto CF trucks?

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/21139/british-armys-new-land-ceptor-sam-system-blasts-its-first-aerial-target

What about a truck mounted Iron Dome style system? Create an invisible curtain around our troops to intercept munitions and UAVs.
 

GR66

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Cdn Blackshirt said:
Do you think that config provides enough range given what we've seen in Libya and then Armenia with the Turkish Baktayar (sp?)?

Based on my limited knowledge that system wouldn't give you the required range to protect our troops.

To throw another alternative, given we are sourcing them for the frigates, why not order pre-existing CAMM components("Land Ceptor?") and mount onto CF trucks?

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/21139/british-armys-new-land-ceptor-sam-system-blasts-its-first-aerial-target

They are two different classes of air defence systems.  The RWS system would cover the lower end of the air threat spectrum.  I don't think you're going to want to expend a CAMM missile on a quad copter drone but with an RWS you could use the cannon/MG or a less expensive Stinger missile.

As you noted though, with the RCN getting CAMM (SeaCeptor) missiles for the CSC it would make great sense for us to get CAMM (LandCeptor) systems for a mid-range AA system.

 

Cdn Blackshirt

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SeaKingTacco said:
I think, if the Army is smart, they look to what the RCN is about to do with CSC. A whole bunch of new missiles and ammo types will have to be qualified. Don’t be clever. Share missile and gun types with the Navy.

Nor that it's any time on the near-horizon, but could the Army start looking ahead to the Mk48 VLS,  57mm Bofors and Phalanx systems that will become available as the Halifax class are retired? With current CSC schedules there should be lots of time to look at towable options for each, if those systems are not already spoken for to be retrofitted into AOPS, etc.  That is of course assuming the Halifax will not be resold to intact upon retirement.
 

dapaterson

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Cdn Blackshirt said:
Nor that it's any time on the near-horizon, but could the Army start looking ahead to the Mk48 VLS,  57mm Bofors and Phalanx systems that will become available as the Halifax class are retired? With current CSC schedules there should be lots of time to look at towable options for each, if those systems are not already spoken for to be retrofitted into AOPS, etc.  That is of course assuming the Halifax will not be resold to intact upon retirement.

One of the major challenges in any resale would be that the majority of the weapons systems are American, and thus subject to US export regulations (ITAR).  Most manufacturers would rather sell new, and thus might fight efforts by Canada to resell...
 

Cloud Cover

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MilEME09 said:
What about a truck mounted Iron Dome style system? Create an invisible curtain around our troops to intercept munitions and UAVs.

What did we buy? https://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/the-current-for-november-13-2015-1.3317292/canada-invests-in-iron-dome-to-fend-off-rocket-attacks-1.3317346
 

GR66

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MilEME09 said:
What about a truck mounted Iron Dome style system? Create an invisible curtain around our troops to intercept munitions and UAVs.

While I think the elements of the Iron Dome system are "mobile" I don't think they are mobile in the sense of being suitable for providing air defence for maneuver units.  More "relocatable" rather than "mobile".
 

MilEME09

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GR66 said:
While I think the elements of the Iron Dome system are "mobile" I don't think they are mobile in the sense of being suitable for providing air defence for maneuver units.  More "relocatable" rather than "mobile".

Right so best for ports and airfields, got it. Still could make it a useful tool at the corp and division level to protect the supply train.
 

suffolkowner

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CloudCover said:
What did we buy? https://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/the-current-for-november-13-2015-1.3317292/canada-invests-in-iron-dome-to-fend-off-rocket-attacks-1.3317346

for some reason i thought we bought these for counter battery?
 

SeaKingTacco

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MilEME09 said:
Right so best for ports and airfields, got it. Still could make it a useful tool at the corp and division level to protect the supply train.

Israel, in their strategic context, don’t really need much in the way of mobile AD systems.
 

FJAG

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suffolkowner said:
You got me there. But can they not provide the targetting information to the M777?

This is one of the capabilities the Canadian Army actually has. 4th Artillery Regiment (General Support) fields the AN/MPQ 405 Medium Range Radar for the counter mortar/gun/rocket role. The radar can also survey the skies for air traffic from UAVs to jets.

See here.

images


:cheers:
 

daftandbarmy

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FJAG said:
Actually this is one of the capabilities the Canadian Army actually has. 4th Artillery Regiment (General Support) fields the AN/MPQ 405 Medium Range Radar for the counter mortar/gun/rocket role. The radar can also survey the skies for air traffic from UAVs to jets.

See here.

images


:cheers:

My Dad was with 4th LAA Regiment in the 3rd Div during WW2. I wonder if this unit is their successor....
 

FJAG

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daftandbarmy said:
My Dad was with 4th LAA Regiment in the 3rd Div during WW2. I wonder if this unit is their successor....

In short, no. It's linage is:

This Regular Force regiment originated on 9 May 1905. 4th Artillery Regiment (General Support), RCA,
originated in CFB Gagetown, New Brunswick, on 11 June 2014 through the amalgamation of the “4th Air
Defence Regiment, RCA” and “4th Field Regiment (Self-propelled), RCA”.1

The full lineage (too long for here) is set out at page 5-20 of Part 2 of the RCA Standing Orders but note that 4th AD Regt does NOT trace back to 4th LAR and was created as a new entity in 1987.

http://rca-arc.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/rca-standing-orders-2015-vol2.pdf

The Canadian Archives list the following with respect to 4th LAR:

Authorized and placed on active service. Composed of 32nd, 62nd, 69th and 100th Light Anti-Aircraft Batteries, 1 January 1941.
Disbanded, 13 November 1945.

See here at page 84 and 85

Generally the artillery traces lineage through batteries.

32nd LAA Bty created 17 Feb 42 traces lineage back to 32nd Kingston Fd Bty and was eventually converted to infantry 1 Dec 1959 (Brockville Rifles) (see above pg 752-4);

62nd LAA Bty created 1 Mar 43 traces lineage back to 62nd Fd Bty (Duncan BC) disbanded 1 Mar 44 converted to ATk Bty (SP) 1 Apr 46 (41st ATk Regt) and eventually converted to infantry 17 Oct 54 (C Coy C Scot R) (see above pg 856-8);

69th LAA Bty created 1 Jan 41 traces lineage back to 69th Fd Bty (Sault St Marie, ON) and continues in Simcoe, ON with 56th Fd Arty Regt (see above pg 870-1);

100th LAA Bty created 1 Jan 41 traces lineage back to 100th Fd Bty (Listowel, ON) reduced to nil strength 1 Oct 70 (see above 919-20);

4th RCA (GS)'s current batteries are 127, 128 and 129 GS Batteries (as an aside, 127 and 128 btys for part of their lineage were designated 1 and 2 Surface to Surface Missile Bties armed with Honest John nuclear missiles).

You might be interested in these two articles:

http://www.thememoryproject.com/stories/2733:/

https://www.hmdb.org/m.asp?m=62232

:cheers:

 

Cloud Cover

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FJAG said:
This is one of the capabilities the Canadian Army actually has. 4th Artillery Regiment (General Support) fields the AN/MPQ 405 Medium Range Radar for the counter mortar/gun/rocket role. The radar can also survey the skies for air traffic from UAVs to jets.

See here.

images


:cheers:

Is that the top or bottom half of the AAD glass?
 

GR66

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Found this interesting article from last summer on the RAND site. Seems like in some cases some existing AAD systems are not as effective as advertised.

https://www.rand.org/blog/2020/07/drone-era-warfare-shows-the-operational-limits-of-air.html

Certainly doesn't mean we should not make the urgent investment in badly need AAD systems, but definitely something to keep in mind when looking at the overall "system of systems" when balancing our offensive and defensive capabilities.
 
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