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Air Defense Role for 2007

kincanucks

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would it also make sense, from a security point of view, to have some sort of air defence other than relying soley on our CF-18s?

Sure if we had a system like SLAMRAAM or Patriot as they are wheeled.  Driving tracked vehicles like ADATS through city streets is not good for PR. However, deploying AD within a city, with tall buildings, does not work unless you ring the city with the systems or deploy them in very large open areas as what has been done in Washington. Also, the public while it somewhat likes the military doesn't really want it deployed in its cities.
 

dapaterson

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The other problem, of course, is that aircraft do not disintegrate when hit - the debris has to land somewhere, which presents problems in an urban area.
 

Colin Parkinson

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dapaterson said:
The other problem, of course, is that aircraft do not disintegrate when hit - the debris has to land somewhere, which presents problems in an urban area.

Now you are being a NIMBY  ;)

If you don't want aircraft crashing in your backyard, don't live within a 20mile radius of any potential targets, sheesh!!  ;D
 

dapaterson

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Fortunately, Vancouver at least has the lower East side that already resembles an impact area - only less well maintained.
 

kincanucks

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dapaterson said:
Fortunately, Vancouver at least has the lower East side that already resembles an impact area - only less well maintained.

Which should be ideal during the Olympics if the AD has to shoot something down.
 

Rayman

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Kincanucks I never thought about it from that point of view. Again back to the old boring "When I was in Toronto" stories, I remember Mel Lastman called in the army after we got hit with a huge blizzard and that pretty much ended his time as mayor. Though some people said that was the smartest move he ever did since some roads couldnt be cleared and some people on those roads ran into medical problems. An ambulance couldnt get through but a M-113 or AVGP could. Some people said that saved their lives. I mean personally id rather have an airplane uproot my lawn rather than blow up a building. I just figured that with a system like the ASRAD we could have a vehicle mounted system and a MANPAD that used the same missle-something that might save money and training. The CLAWS system looks nice too though.
 

Proud Dad

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All of this conjecture about whether or not there is a future for AD Artillery is very interesting to me, especially since my youngest Son is at BMQ right now and was recruited as a Bird Gunner. If the trade is dying they shouldn't be wasting his time, and turn him into field artillery now, well at SQ anyways.

The trainers give Him a hard time about his career choice with comments like "Oh, heres that damn Bird Gunner!, why you join a dying trade?  :)  His Brother is in Afgahnistan currently driving a Leo2, and He even says AD was maybe not the right choice (mind you he has seen the 777 in action, haha).

I guess my point is that there are plans for at least one more Bird Gunner for at least the next 3 years anyways. He is working hard at BMQ, but wondering what His future role will be.
 

Rayman

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Petard

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To proud dad, I dare say you have every reason to hold claim to that title, you have a son who has shown he is willing to step and do something a lot of others are not so willing to do, and many are only willing to carp about, might I also throw in there that he honours you in doing this too (he had to learn it somewhere).

As for the ones rattling about "dead trade business", I would say they're speaking from ignorance, short sightedness, or both, so I would suggest to try and let it drift. I have been in the Field Artillery for over 27 years now, and I have heard this same kind of talk about the Field artillery. . just a few years ago they were saying the Field Artillery is an obsolete idea; down grade it to a reserve function at most or get rid of it. There were a number of people even at high levels that truly believed that, only now through the lens of recent events in Afghanistan have they relearned how valuable that once dormant capability is.
As for the air defence, they are not going to get much attention in the news but what they do is of a vital importance. For right now it is in ASCC's where coordinating and vectoring the air resources into battles on the ground quickly takes considerable skill and training; it might not make for a good war story but it is part of what is needed so that the ones in direct contact with the enemy get the response they need in short order.

As for the future, who really knows? Besides the domestic 9/11 air defence scenario, one item that General Leslie (Chief of Land Staff, or general of the Army) has referred to more than once, was what happened to the French forces deployed to the Ivory Coast in 2004.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/africa/11/11/ivory.evacuation/index.html
http://www.themilitant.com/2004/6843/684303.html
Basically the French forces were "accidentally" bombed by the Ivory coast air force, and the french retaliation of attacking with their own air force was seen as an over reaction, not proportional to the threat, and was used as a pretext to escalate the situation by many belligerents involved; critics of the French response did seem to "allow" that they were entitled to self defence though, i.e they should've had some kind of air defence capability. Kind of sounds like blaming the victim for not being able to adequately protect himself to me, but then again nothing should surprise me when it comes to politics and UN missions.
What I'm getting at is there may well be situations in the future where Canadian forces, deployed in a similar Ivory Coast type mission way, will very much need protection from such "accidental" bombing and have at least a credible self defence from such a threat, and the presence of that force cannot be one that escalates the situation; this protection will most likely come from Land Based Air Defence. Your son may very well be one of those in future standing up to provide that protection.
 

Rayman

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I agree with you Petard. I just think that 34 some odd ADATS is a small number. I think we should at least have a MANPAD or invest in one of the newer systems they are coming out with not to replace but to work with and compliment the ADATS.
 

LCIS-Tech

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Rayman said:
I agree with you Petard. I just think that 34 some odd ADATS is a small number. I think we should at least have a MANPAD or invest in one of the newer systems they are coming out with not to replace but to work with and compliment the ADATS.

While i will not give you the exact numbers or details (suffice to say that I COULD..), there has been some (what I consider to be) rather "drastic" reductions in the Canadian ADATS fleet size in conjunction with the Series 400 Upgrades currently underway. As far as getting something to "compliment" ADATS...Don;t bother wasting your money: The system is obsolete. The ADATS system was designed for Cold-War style symetrical battlefield situations, where air superiority and air-field defense was an issue. The system is far too cumbersome, expensive to maintain and run, and fragile for today's battlefield (even for the battlefield of yesteryear, for that matter). The Radars (which give only bearing and range to a target, without any elevation information..ie: 2D) never recieved a true mid-life overhaul. Furthermore, I could tell you a couple of things about them that would definately make you say "hmmmmm".

On the upside, the Radar IS still very effective despite it's age and fragility (Let's remember that these things were not "supposed" to be mounted on armoured vehicles. The Bunker mounted ones in use in Thialand continue to run phenominally, so I am told..), and because of the way targetting is done, once you are tagged, you had better start counting the seconds until you are shot down....assuming that the fella in the Gunner's chair can actually hit you. Another downside of such an out-dated and expensive piece of kit is that live-fire something of a rarity. Combined with the age of the missile stockpiles....well....you can probably guess where I am going with that one....

In my humble opinion, the future of Air Defence lays firmly in the venue of CRAM: Counter Rocket Artillery and Mortor, TUAV/MUAV and Air Space Coordination. Now all we need to do is procure ourselves a competent CRAM System, like the trailer mounted Phalanx, and our own Low Level Rader like a couple of AN/TPS-75 Radars to deploy with our ASCC's and we'll be all set. Anyone have a checkbook?
 

Rayman

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LCIS-Tech said:
In my humble opinion, the future of Air Defence lays firmly in the venue of CRAM: Counter Rocket Artillery and Mortor, TUAV/MUAV and Air Space Coordination. Now all we need to do is procure ourselves a competent CRAM System, like the trailer mounted Phalanx, and our own Low Level Rader like a couple of AN/TPS-75 Radars to deploy with our ASCC's and we'll be all set. Anyone have a checkbook?

Isnt there a C-RAM system out there that plans to use the twin 35's we had? With the AHEAD round?
 

Proud Dad

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Its good to hear such positive comments from all of you in the know. Even if it means alternatives to current hardware is the answer, it seems likely that AD is not a "Dead trade". I guess all things considered, my Son's instructor is likely just "busting his chops", and that's OK.
 

Loachman

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Awake, Thread, awake...

We have a bunch of 4 AD guys training with us on TUAV Flight Roto 6, as per normal. They are employed not only in the AV Prep, Launch, and Recovery Teams, but some very talented ones as AV Operators and Payload Operators. They certainly seem to be enjoying their jobs, despite the steep learning curve.  We are trying to train them to slouch more and keep their hands in their pockets where they belong.

AD has been short-changed since we achieved air superiority/supremacy in WWII and they found themselves lacking for things to shoot at. A brief resurrection occurred in the last few years of the Cold War, but Cold War and ressurrection have both faded into the past.

While many current roles seem to include a fair amount of non-traditional stuff (not shooting at aeroplanes), the AD background is either necessary (ASCC) or very helpful (TUAV).

The trade needs to be kept alive, including the traditional shooting role. We may indeed have no operational need for that role now, but nobody can predict what specific capabilities we will need in five or ten years. China is boosting its "defence" budget yet again...
 

Colin Parkinson

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I can see the need for AD against UAV's being the next wave. Hezbollah is already the leader in Non-state player in this role and the ability to gather information or launch attacks with them will not go unnoticed by other groups for long.
 
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