Afghan Rapes & Canadian Soldiers' Duty

[BlueJingo]

Having sex with children is against the law in Afghanistan, but some military officers have argued that since it is practised by some Afghans, particularly in Kandahar, then the Canadian Forces should not get involved in what should be seen as a "cultural" issue.

I am sorry, but "cultural" issue or not it's STILL against the law.

This sickens me.  :rage:

Hmmm....... if cannibalism is a cultural practice in some places i guess we can kill people as long as we eat them... (BTW i was using this as sarcasm)  :-X

 

[TCBF]

- You are aware, that in certain modern military cultures, sodomy is practically on the Table Of Punishments, right?

 

[The Bread Guy]

- You are aware, that in certain modern military cultures, sodomy is practically on the Table Of Punishments, right?

As close as our own backyard, so to speak.

 

[Kat Stevens]

As close as our own backyard, so to speak.

Sounded to me like he meant sodomy AS a punishment, not grounds for it.

 

[TCBF]

Sounded to me like he meant sodomy AS a punishment, not grounds for it.

- Yup. That's what I meant all right.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Oopsie - In the words of Jack Nicholson in "A Few Good Men," "Well, don't I feel like a ....." (no pun intended)

Also, more back & forth on this one here:
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/77328.15

 

[Cloud Cover]

- You are aware, that in certain modern military cultures, sodomy is practically on the Table Of Punishments, right?

So retired Gen Al Haig ratted out Nixon because he was under punishment?  http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1356&dat=19821101&id=JZoTAAAAIBAJ&sjid=AwYEAAAAIBAJ&pg=5908,4109

 

[George Wallace]

I am sorry, but "cultural" issue or not it's STILL against the law.

This sickens me.  :rage:

Hmmm....... if cannibalism is a cultural practice in some places i guess we can kill people as long as we eat them... (BTW i was using this as sarcasm)  :-X

Comments like the above, are out of sheer ignorance.  We are not imposing Canadian, or Western Culture, on Afghanistan, and what is the norm here is not the norm there.  Our Laws are not their Laws, just as their Laws are not our Laws when we look at them bringing their 'habits' to Canada.  We are not in Afghanistan to impose Western cultural values on the Afghans.  We are there to create the stability for them to take care of their own nation in a stable envirionment. 

I side with BulletMagnet in that the people, including the one named, involved in bringing this to the news are grossely ignorant of what we are striving to do.  We are not there to to impose our culture and proprieties on Afghans.  We can not commit to doing that, as it is diametericly opposed to what our aim is.

These "Goodie Two Shoes" types are crying foul for what we are doing, and then crying foul for what we are not doing.  They can't have it both ways.  I doubt they can make up their own minds, so we should condemn the ignorant persons who fashion themselves to be "whitsle blowers", but really are nothing more than ignorant bigots.

 

[TCBF]

So retired Gen Al Haig ratted out Nixon because he was under punishment?  http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1356&dat=19821101&id=JZoTAAAAIBAJ&sjid=AwYEAAAAIBAJ&pg=5908,4109

- "Deep Throat" was not General Haig, but was in fact FBI Agent W. Mark Felt, who died less than a year ago. He rose to become the Deputy Director of the FBI.

 

[The Bread Guy]

MODS:  Any merit in bringing this all into this already-started thread on the same investigation?
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/77328.15

We are not imposing Canadian, or Western Culture, on Afghanistan, and what is the norm here is not the norm there .... We are not in Afghanistan to impose Western cultural values on the Afghans.  We are there to create the stability for them to take care of their own nation in a stable environment. 

Agreed - we're not there to make a cookie-cutter "democracy" (even if that was possible).

Our Laws are not their Laws, just as their Laws are not our Laws when we look at them bringing their 'habits' to Canada.

To to be clear, it IS against Afghan's own laws of the land (pg. 136 of PDF)....

Penal Code, 1976 
CHAPTER EIGHT: Adultery, Pederasty, and Violations of Honour
Article 427:
“(1) A person who commits adultery or pederasty shall be sentenced to long imprisonment.
(2) In one of the following cases commitment of the acts, specified above, is considered to be aggravating conditions:
a. In the case where the person against whom the crime has been committed is not yet eighteen years old...

 

Do we have bigger fish to fry?  Oh yeah.  Should anyone training AFG cops or troops let this go if they see it?  In theory, no way, but in practice, not so easy, given the cultural sensibilities....

 

[BlueJingo]

Comments like the above, are out of sheer ignorance.  We are not imposing Canadian, or Western Culture, on Afghanistan, and what is the norm here is not the norm there.  Our Laws are not their Laws, just as their Laws are not our Laws when we look at them bringing their 'habits' to Canada.  We are not in Afghanistan to impose Western cultural values on the Afghans.  We are there to create the stability for them to take care of their own nation in a stable envirionment. 

I side with BulletMagnet in that the people, including the one named, involved in bringing this to the news are grossely ignorant of what we are striving to do.  We are not there to to impose our culture and proprieties on Afghans.  We can not commit to doing that, as it is diametericly opposed to what our aim is.

These "Goodie Two Shoes" types are crying foul for what we are doing, and then crying foul for what we are not doing.  They can't have it both ways.  I doubt they can make up their own minds, so we should condemn the ignorant persons who fashion themselves to be "whitsle blowers", but really are nothing more than ignorant bigots.

Uhhh if you look at the quote from the original article it shows that it is against the law IN AFGHANISTAN!

It's against Their law too!

 

[George Wallace]

You will also notice this statement:

It is the position of the Canadian Forces that its troops have no jurisdiction over the activities of Afghan military and police personnel, even those operating on Canadian bases.

 

[tango22a]

Post Removed as was considered offensive.

tango22a

 

[BlueJingo]

I know, but isn't it still their responsibility (Afghan Police) to uphold their OWN penal code?


Penal Code for the Republic of Afghanistan

Article 429: 1) A person who, through violence, throat, or deceit, violates the chastity of another (whether male or female), or initiates the act, shall be sentenced to long imprisonment, not exceeding seven years.
2) In the case where the person against whom the crime is committed is not eighteen years old, or the person who commits the crime is one of the persons specified under paragraph 2 of Article 427 of this Law, the offender shall be sentenced to long imprisonment, not exceeding ten years.

http://www.idlo.int/Afghanlaws/CD%20Laws%201921%20-%20to%20date%20in%20English/Afghan%20Laws%20in%20English%20(and%20other%20languages)/Penal%20Code%201976.pdf

 

[Eye In The Sky]

OK.

Its against our, and their law.

CF personnel have no legal juridiction over it.  Great. 

Its still wrong, it is still sickening and something should be done about it.  Whatever pressure the Canadian government, ISAF, NATO, whoever can put on them to punish those doing it, that pressure should be put on.

Its against the laws to throw acid on little girls, and when that happened there was a bit of an uproar about it, including the members of this site/forum.  Is this not as horrific and wrong?

Some of you are trying to draw attention to the peas, when the real issue is the steak.  In this case, the steak happens to be sick motherfuckers raping boys. 

We seem to be able to make it so woman can vote and little girls can go to school.  But we just turn our eyes when it is little boys being sexually abused?  I don't think the "but that isn't our job" line works with most people who are reading about this one, sorry.

Tango22A,

That post of yours is in REALLY bad taste.  Got any grandsons? 

 

[George Wallace]

Jurisdiction. 

I love it that we are condemned as trying to impose Western values on the Afghans, only to be condemned for not trying to impose Western values on Afghans. 

What's that old army saying?      F'd if you do; F'd if you don't.

Jingo/Eye In The Sky

There are a lot of homophobes out there, even in Middle Eastern and Southwest Asian cultures.  Laws are made, yet totally ignored.  Homosexual acts are commited in dozens of these countries, yet not considered homosexual in any way.  It seems that there is a double standard in what they consider homosexual and what they consider a norm.  Your definitions and their definitions are not the same.

 

[BlueJingo]

Some of you are trying to draw attention to the peas, when the real issue is the steak.  In this case, the steak happens to be sick motherfuckers raping boys. 

Above quote: I agree

---

And, George Wallace, as for trying to impose western values on the Afghans, they (The Afghans) obviously thought it was wrong enough to put it in their own penal code don't you think?

 

[Edward Campbell]

This is, quite clearly, a morally difficult issue for many Canadians, Canadian soldiers included.

Canadians may not have any direct authority to intervene or to force changes but, at the very least, we need:

1. A formal channel of reporting - so that soldiers can, at least, have "done something," however inadequate, and so that, at the very least, the CF does not have to endure a constant drubbing in the press because it ignores the problem;

2. A formal channel for advising the Government of the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan that these actions lower the level of Canadian support for the mission and for the Afghan government; and

3. A formal feedback channel - so that the soldier who made the intial report knows that something, however inadequate, was done about the issue.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Well, there is no double standard in what I read their law states.

DUI is an offence in Canada, yet people still do it.  If/when they are caught, they are then punished.  Sure people will do it, and there isn't much you can do to stop them, but they should damn well be held accountable once caught and proven guilty.

I see no difference here.  I know one thing;  there are little boys suffering and that ain't cool.

For the record, I see the resolution of this coming from outside the CF, and am not suggesting that it is the CF or CF personnel that are dropping the ball.  This is a diplomatic or political issue and one that should be solved internally. 

I certainly don't know the facts, or all of them, but I know what I think of sick bastards that target kids.

 

[George Wallace]

And, George Wallace, as for trying to impose western values on the Afghans, they (The Afghans) obviously thought it was wrong enough to put it in their own penal code don't you think?

Yes they did, but again, their concepts of homosexual differ vastly from yours.  Afghans are not the only ones in this case.  You can go to dozens of countries and find the same views.  You can go to Turkey.  You can go to several African nations.  You can go to the Far East.  You will find the idea of "Tea Boys" is not restricted to one nation.  You will also find that many of these nations also condemn homosexual acts, and at the same time condone them. 

You are placing your values above theirs, in their nation, and their culture.  You are treading into someone else's jurisdiction in your outrage of these acts.  Do you have the right to be judgmental of them in their country?

I am sure I can ask if you have visited a friend or neighbour's home and seen them smoke in the presence of children.  Have you had them arrested?  That, too, is against the Law; and Canadian Law, not foreign, in a foreign land.


EITS

This is not an internal problem, other than our imposing our standards on foreigners, which is wrong.  It is the problem of a foreign nation to solve in their own manner.  You can take offence all you want.  It is not your problem to dictate a solution.  It is theirs to solve.