Afghan Rapes & Canadian Soldiers' Duty

[Jarnhamar]

It's disgusting and it's wrong.

What happened to leading through example? In my opinion when we Canadians turn a blind eye to this shit inside our own FOBs we're giving them the signal that it's okay.
Silence is consent in this case.

We should put a stop to it even if it's only our little area of control. Don't let it go on in the FOBs for starters.  Just because we're "guests" in their country doesn't mean we should leave our morales and ethics at the door. It's the price of our help (and sacrifice)
If they don't like it they can always complain to the Taliban.

 

[X-mo-1979]

We should put a stop to it even if it's only our little area of control. Don't let it go on in the FOBs for starters.  Just because we're "guests" in their country doesn't mean we should leave our morales and ethics at the door. It's the price of our help (and sacrifice)
If they don't like it they can always complain to the Taliban.

this is happening in the FOB's?

think you may have become part of the investigation!

I heard it was a civi problem...not in the fobs.

 

[GAP]

It's disgusting and it's wrong.

What happened to leading through example? In my opinion when we Canadians turn a blind eye to this shit inside our own FOBs we're giving them the signal that it's okay.
Silence is consent in this case.

We should put a stop to it even if it's only our little area of control. Don't let it go on in the FOBs for starters.  Just because we're "guests" in their country doesn't mean we should leave our morales and ethics at the door. It's the price of our help (and sacrifice)
If they don't like it they can always complain to the Taliban.

If it is consensual, what is the difference between that and the guys going on leave and picking up young bar girls, etc?

If it is forced rape, charge his ass!! But before we go off on a tangent about saving the young lads, we need a whole lot more information as to whether this actually rape or a chickenhawk searching out a sugar daddy.....

 

[Jarnhamar]

I have a feeling if I pick up a 10 or 13 year old girl on leave even if I charm her with my wad of cash and Han Solo roguish looks I'm spending some time in jail.

Let's say the kid doesn't mind the abuse in exchange for money or whatever, we shouldn't let it happen near us period.

Would we turn our back on a 35 year old Sgt in the CF having sex with a 16 year old recruit even if it was consensual? I think the answer would be no for a number of reasons.

The legality of the issue, cultural acceptance and cooperation between Canada and Afghanistan issues can be argued about  quite in depth. I still think saying "Hey not around us you don't" is a good start.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Here's where the Big Cod stands on this one - highlights mine, shared with the usual disclaimer....

Soldiers ordered to report abuse: Hillier
Janice Tibbetts ,  Canwest News Service, 17 Jun 08
Article link

Gen. Rick Hillier said he reaffirmed orders Tuesday "through the entire chain of command" in Afghanistan that Canadian soldiers are not to permitted to turn a blind eye if they witness sexual abuse of Afghan civilians.

The top soldier was responding to news reports that Canadian troops have been ordered by commanding officers to ignore assaults against boys by Afghan soldiers.

"If somebody is being seriously abused, we are not going to stand by and see that continue. I expect young men and young women to have their actions mirror their values that they bring with them from Canada," Hillier said when questioned by the House of Commons Defence committee.

"I don't want any ambiguity on that whatsoever."

(....)

Hillier also said he intends to conduct an investigation to determine whether there is merit to reports that soldiers have stood by while they witnessed rapes.

 

[the 48th regulator]

this is happening in the FOB's?

think you may have become part of the investigation!

I heard it was a civi problem...not in the fobs.

Where did I hear that before.....

If it is consensual, what is the difference between that and the guys going on leave and picking up young bar girls, etc?

Hmmm,

Well lemme see what the Canadian Troop observed;

Canadian soldiers in the main guard tower at forward operating base Wilson last summer winced when I asked about the sudden lineup of teenage boys along the mud walls of the neighbouring Afghan market.

"Wait a few minutes. You'll see," said one, his lip curling. "It's disgusting."

Sure enough, a handful of uniformed Afghan police officers emerged from their rundown detachment, walked through the barricades and started chatting up the dozen or so teens, some looking decidedly pre-teen.

A few minutes after they returned, the selected kids were waved through the main gates and went straight inside the police station. An hour later, when I left the observation post, the boys were still inside.

This evening ritual is often derided by soldiers as man-love Thursdays.

Does not make it okay, legal, or culturally acceptable.

If it is forced rape, charge his ***!! But before we go off on a tangent about saving the young lads, we need a whole lot more information as to whether this actually rape or a chickenhawk searching out a sugar daddy.....

So can Christopher Neil use this argument to defend himself?

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080601/neil_thailand_080602/20080602?hub=CTVNewsAt11

Gents,

I saw the Jordanians holding hands when they went on patrol, I was told told that was culturally acceptable.  Let them fill their boots, or anything else they see appealing.

I even saw the rough treatment of the civvy population of Krajina, by their own defenders.  But had I seen them raping or molesting, they would have been lucky if a report to my commanders is all they got.

Bottom line, disgusting, and they should be stopped.  Pederasts are not a "cultural" acceptance.

dileas

tess

 

[X-mo-1979]

Where did I hear that before.....

Sorry I'm not following 48th.
Think I may have been misunderstood.

 

[the 48th regulator]

Sorry I'm not following 48th.
Think I may have been misunderstood.

I heard it was a civi problem...not in the fobs.

Maybe I don't follow, explain.

dileas

tess

 

[GAP]

Quote from: GAP on Today at 16:37:24
If it is consensual, what is the difference between that and the guys going on leave and picking up young bar girls, etc?
Hmmm,

Well lemme see what the Canadian Troop observed;

Does not make it okay, legal, or culturally acceptable.

So can Christopher Neil use this argument to defend himself?

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080601/neil_thailand_080602/20080602?hub=CTVNewsAt11


Bottom line, disgusting, and they should be stopped.  Pederasts are not a "cultural" acceptance.

dileas

tess

Nobody is questioning the need for a reaction to what the Canadian soldier witnessed, that is not what the comment was based on.

 

[the 48th regulator]

Nobody is questioning the need for a reaction to what the Canadian soldier witnessed, that is not what the comment was based on.

If it is consensual, what is the difference between that and the guys going on leave and picking up young bar girls, etc?

Where has it been reported that it was consensual?

dileas

tess

 

[GAP]

Where has it been reported that it was consensual?

dileas

tess

Actually my comment was based on the New York Times article posted earlier

 

[the 48th regulator]

Actually my comment was based on the New York Times article posted earlier

Which part?

dileas

tess

 

[Fusaki]

The way I see it, it's about priorities.

The Afghans do alot of things that are pretty fucked up by our standards, but we can't be picking fights with the ANA if we're going to work with them to defeat the Taliban. Somewhere down the road we'll encourage them to quit with the Man Love Thursdays, but in the short term we need to focus our efforts on killing the bad guys and establishing security.

It's not like you can just arrest an ANA guy like you would a Canadian soldier. If his buddies don't want him to be arrested, they WILL start a gunfight over it. Most of the time all you can do is shrug your shoulders and get back to dealing with the common enemy. Maybe once that country is stable they'll do things different. Untill then, I've got other things to worry about.

 

[the 48th regulator]

The way I see it, it's about priorities.

The Afghans do alot of things that are pretty ****ed up by our standards, but we can't be picking fights with the ANA if we're going to work with them to defeat the Taliban. Somewhere down the road we'll encourage them to quit with the Man Love Thursdays, but in the short term we need to focus our efforts on killing the bad guys and establishing security.

It's not like you can just arrest an ANA guy like you would a Canadian soldier. If his buddies don't want him to be arrested, they WILL start a gunfight over it. Most of the time all you can do is shrug your shoulders and get back to dealing with the common enemy. Maybe once that country is stable they'll do things different. Untill then, I've got other things to worry about.

What is your mission as a soldier then?

You would turn a blind eye to abuse, so that you can work with a few degenerates, that taint the whole ANA?

You would do nothing if you saw a rape, a murder, or some other form of indignity done by the "Allies"?

dileas

tess

 

[X-mo-1979]

Maybe I don't follow, explain.

dileas

tess

What I was trying to say,I have heard of things like "man love thursdays" but always didnt understand that it was happening in our FOB's.Never heard that before,find it kind of disturbing if it's true.That's all I meant.

 

[the 48th regulator]

What I was trying to say,I have heard of things like "man love thursdays" but always didnt understand that it was happening in our FOB's.Never heard that before,find it kind of disturbing if it's true.That's all I meant.

However,

Your post came across that you insinuated that it was a civvy problem, therefore we had no reason to intervene, am I correct?

Maybe I misinterpreted you post.

dileas

tess

 

[Fusaki]

What is your mission as a soldier then?

You would turn a blind eye to abuse, so that you can work with a few degenerates, that taint the whole ANA?

You would do nothing if you saw a rape, a murder, or some other form of indignity done by the "Allies"?

My mission as a soldier is to help establish a secure environment so that the Government of Afghanistan can eventually stand on it's own so that terrorists can not use that country as a base of operations.

And we're not talking about a few degenerates here. We're talking about the whole culture. That sort of stuff doesn't change overnight, and we need to be ready to accept some things we don't like in favour of reaching long term goals.

The standard I apply to another Canadian soldier, an American soldier or Marine, or any other NATO troop doesn't have much to do with the standard I apply to the ANA. We belong to professional western militaries. The ANA are a 3rd world army with 3rd world ethics. We work with them for the same reason we work with guys like Dostum. It would be nice to have enough influential Afghans who havn't been accused of war crimes to fill government positions, but we can't have everything we want all at once. We need to take whatever we can get now, and encourage the government of Afghanistan to sort the rest out on their terms over the long haul.

 

[the 48th regulator]

My mission as a soldier is to help establish a secure environment so that the Government of Afghanistan can eventually stand on it's own so that terrorists can not use that country as a base of operations.

And we're not talking about a few degenerates here. We're talking about the whole culture. That sort of stuff doesn't change overnight, and we need to be ready to accept some things we don't like in favour of reaching long term goals.

The standard I apply to another Canadian soldier, an American soldier or Marine, or any other NATO troop doesn't have much to do with the standard I apply to the ANA. We belong to professional western militaries. The ANA are a 3rd world army with 3rd world ethics. We work with them for the same reason we work with guys like Dostum. It would be nice to have enough influential Afghans who havn't been accused of war crimes to fill government positions, but we can't have everything we want all at once. We need to take whatever we can get now, and encourage the government of Afghanistan to sort the rest out on their terms over the long haul.

At around 10am on 31 January 2008 a vehicle with the markings and number plate of the Afghan National Army (ANA) stopped near a water-point where Sweeta was filling her buckets, according to the Afghanistan Human Right Organisation (AHRO).

“The three men in the car grabbed her and drove to an army barracks where the commander raped her in his office,” said Lal Gul Lal, chairman of AHRO, who has provided legal support to the victim’s family.

The child was semi-conscious when the rapist dropped her home with some gifts, lying to her elder sister that she was hit by a car and was experiencing abdominal bleeding.

“She [Sweeta] was threatened that if she told anyone about the incident they would kill her parents,” Lal told IRIN in Kabul.

But it soon became clear that the girl had been raped, and this was later confirmed by local doctors.

Article link

The Toronto Star also reports a Canadian soldier overheard an Afghan soldier abusing a young boy in late 2006 and later saw the victim with signs of rape trauma, specifically protrusions of his bowels and lower intestine.

Offences of Breach of Command/Superior Responsibility

Under the Crimes Against Humanity and War Crimes Act, breach of command/superior responsibility is a criminal offence. This means that military commanders and superiors are obliged to take measures to prevent or repress genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes. In the event that such a crime is committed by one of their subordinates, military commanders and superiors are responsible for submitting the matter to the competent authorities for investigation

My mission as a soldier is to help establish a secure environment so that the Government of Afghanistan can eventually stand on it's own so that terrorists can not use that country as a base of operations.

And we're not talking about a few degenerates here. We're talking about the whole culture. That sort of stuff doesn't change overnight, and we need to be ready to accept some things we don't like in favour of reaching long term goals.

The standard I apply to another Canadian soldier, an American soldier or Marine, or any other NATO troop doesn't have much to do with the standard I apply to the ANA.

Yes it does.

So what you are saying is you would turn a blind eye, because you perceive this is acceptable to their culture, and you are only there to fight the taliban.

Am I correct in this statement?

dileas

tess

 

[X-mo-1979]

However,

Your post came across that you insinuated that it was a civvy problem, therefore we had no reason to intervene, am I correct?

Maybe I misinterpreted you post.

dileas

tess

Yeah big time misinterpretation.I don't agree with sodomy of children.

However as I said as with other war zone's such as female mutilation while we were in Somalia,it tends to get over looked I guess.
I have never been to that country yet.Leaving for there soon however.

Is there an army investigation happening reference this?

Glad I know nothing honestly,this could turn pretty messy for some leadership,IFthe allogations are true and it has been reported.

If this was happening in FOB's I'm sure the media would have picked up on it by now.

 

[Fusaki]

So what you are saying is you would turn a blind eye, because you perceive this is acceptable to their culture, and you are only there to fight the taliban.

Am I correct in this statement?

No.

If I had reason to suspect that the ANA were commiting acts such as this I would be legally bound to pass that information up my chain of command. I've only heard unsubstantiated rumors and read newspaper articles and have not witnessed anything personally.

My previous posts were a matter of opinion. However, as a member of the CF I am subject to and I abide by the QR&Os, international law, ect.