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A "First Nations" Unit Merged Thread.

So by extension of that proposal there would be 614 regiments stood up for the FN members to join?  Then there is the Metis, Urban and Off Rez (Bill C31s) to consider. 

Newfoundland 3
Nova Scotia 13
Prince Edward Island 2
New Brunswick 15
Quebec 39
Ontario 126
Manitoba 62
Saskatchewan 70
Alberta 44
British Columbia 198
Yukon 16
Northwest Territories 26
Total 614

source INAC
 
geo said:
Hmm.... do you think they would form a Battalion of Lesbians ???
I think that would be interesting - really!
(though I would certainly not want to get in their way - on a bad day)


Man...what a softball team...
 
I fully agree with 9D's hypothesis that this is another manifestation of "just add Indian".

The Gurkha's are magnificient, but they are mercs.

I think that RangerRay's point on NZ is well taken. NZ has something to show us on this.

They (the Kiwis) got there in an entirely different way, but they are in a good spot nonetheless.

I have had the opportunity to spend some time in NZ.

It is a unique tradition and history. It is not a 'done deal'. Real issues exist between the Maori and Pakeha and will for some time, I wager.

Upshot.
I would rather see a way in which the contribution of FN into our military tradition is recognized, in some institutional manner, or the degree to which an individual is allowed to demonstrate that heritage (not to the detriment of good order and discipline) than see some token cap badge attached to the OrBat.

How?

See a Maori 'Staff', on parade, full facial tattoo, dress and decorum all properly turned out... awesome.

To see a section or platoon perform a 'haka' is downright scary ( ... you thought the 'All Blacks' were scary ... add Steyr's ... yikes .. )



Broad strokes folks. I'd rather integrate the best of all than segregate and divide. 0.02
 
I'm Aboriginal, and I think that the idea of a base created solely for aboriginal Soldiers is, for the lack of a better descriptor, stupid.  I have been in the CF for about 4 years and I do not believe my ancestry should be any reason to create a base specifically for a certain nationality.  I have never thought myself any different than any person I have ever had the opportunity to serve beside because at the end of the day, we're all wearing the same uniform, and we're all serving the same country.  That's all I have to say about that.
The thought of a regiment that would highlight certain attributes of first nations culture is intriguing, and the Canadian Rangers is a great example of this.  If they could branch out into other first nations groups, it just might work... Imagine a tracking course, or an escape and evasion in wooded areas course, taught by those who live it.  that's just a thought or two from my perspective. 
 
What would stop them from forming a Reg Force Ranger Unit. I know lots of Natives and non Natives that would love to join a unit such as that.

As stated earlier a Regiment with Native Background similar to a Highland unit would be a step in the right direction. As opposed to standing to a full only Native unit. 
 
One thing to remember is that Kiwi society evolved a lot differently than ours.  The native and non-native populations integrated much more than any other colonial society.  So it probably isn't much of a surprise that their army has combined Maori warrior traditions with British colonial martial traditions.  In Canada, we were so worried about appeasing the French that we completely ignored the natives, and left no place for their warrior traditions in our military.  And while the Kiwis have managed to integrate Maori culture while maintaining British martial culture in their army, in Canada, we seem to be irradicating our British martial heritage in order to make it more attractive to those of French descent.  The time for us to incorporate native heritage and symbolism into our military should have been at the time of unification (ptui!) when all our symbols and culture were redefined.  As well, it would probably only work if the native societies were more integrated with the non-native society like they are in New Zealand.

My $0.02...
 
Rangerray?

WTF - "in order to make it more attractive to those of French descent."

I have seen the way some national courses are "made attractive" to french speaking soldiers.... sink or swim - and that ain't all that attractive IMHO!
 
Okay... how bout making Chinese/Other Asian Regiments? I mean both the Chinese as well as the Japanese Canadians made great sacrifices during the 1st and 2nd WWs. It even came out in a book published by DND. In case those of us have not seen it yet, it's titled 'Fighting for Canada: Chinese and Japanese Canadians in Military Service'. Every unit is supposed to receive two copies.

So why not a Chinese unit huh? A little Fuman-Chu style beard, and a rice stalk and crossed chopsticks for a capbadge all under the crown? I think it would be beneficial to have distinct unit identities and heritage, but at a time right now, isn't it more important to HAVE troops that will later fill those imaginary regiments, and their cultural heritages? I mean if you look around some of the units here in the Greater Vancouver area, we've got ourselves a fair number of soldiers who are of asian decent. Just my 0.02 yuan.
 
niner domestic said:
So by extension of that proposal there would be 614 regiments stood up for the FN members to join?  Then there is the Metis, Urban and Off Rez (Bill C31s) to consider. 

Newfoundland 3
Nova Scotia 13
Prince Edward Island 2
New Brunswick 15
Quebec 39
Ontario 126
Manitoba 62
Saskatchewan 70
Alberta 44
British Columbia 198
Yukon 16
Northwest Territories 26
Total 614

source INAC

To be fair, based on my own limited understanding, not EVERY FN (or Band) is considered a separate "culture".  You ARE bang-on, though, even when we consider Ojibway, Cree, Swampy Cree, Mohawk, and all the other groups out there (not to mention all the East & West coast Aboriginal cultures!). 

Also, from limited experience, I don't think Aboriginal cultural groups are anywhere NEAR as homogenous as the idealists who come up with these schemes think they are.  On one course I've taken, for example, some Ojibway and Cree (urbanized, public sector workers) visiting a Mohawk reserve, when seeing all the British flags and Union-Jack-Based symbols about, said, "These guys are some assimilated, eh?"  Goes to show you that there ain't just one "Indian" history or world view out there.

Good luck, Mr. Coderre.....
 
The classification of First Nations is a bit of a sore point amongst the actual FNs.  INAC and anthropologists in their infinite wisdom lumped a large number of indigenous people into the same as or similar linguistic groups or some simply because of the present alliances they had.  (remember these are the same people that decided that if an Indian woman married a non-Indian she was no longer considered an Indian).  A fair amount of the present day classification is based on those earlier groupings. Some FNs were lumped together for only the sake of expediency of Indian Agents not wanting to head further up a river or trek through a bush to do head counts so they deemed that those groups were the same.  Now, in the Yukon where I'm from there are 16 First Nations up there and all of them are quite distinct from each other.  To further complicate the theory that there are only so many actual group distinctions, my linguistic and anthropology is also found in the southern states in Navajo, Apache who are part of the classification of Dine - we spell it Dene up here.  (I'd like to see who remains standing when one tries to tell a Tlingit that they are the same as a Tutchone) So in the instance of the YT, yes, there would be 16 supposed regiments.  The number of "bands" that one sees today are a direct result of a census taken by the Indian Agents shortly after the inception of the 1878 Indian Act.  Those number are still being used today to calculate transfer payments and treaty rights. 

The "bands" that were created by INAC and Indian agents, did not account for unique traditions, clan association (again my group was mistakenly divided into a north and southern group based only on a misinformed agent that didn't understand the clan structure.  Then merged another group with the southern group only because they used the same fishing grounds.  That merged group isn't even the same FN.)

But we can play the game of name the FN group to shorten down the list.  In the east we have the Wabenaki - made up of Mi'kmaq, Malicite, Passmaquoddy, Penobscot and Abenaki...  then we have eastern woodlands, six nations - that is actually more like 12 nations - plains, subarctic, arctic, Gitsk'an, coastal...Or we can go for the linguistic base to shorten it down even further - Algonquin, Inuit, Siouan, Haudashaunee, Salish, Athabaskan (there are 16 distinct languages spoken up there so that might get tricky again), Aleut - but remember these are just linguistic groups, the actual languages in most cases aren't even the same - Mohawk is not the same as Tuscarora or Cree is not the same as Anishabe. 

Still want to assume that a regiment could be stood up for each FN that would be able to incorporate all of the traditions of each FN? Coderre needs to have better staffers who can actually do the research before they give him his briefing notes. 


 
How much FN culture is there in the CF right now?  The day after reading this thread I recalled where CHIMO came from and saw for the first time the two Salish poles guarding the entrance to 1 CER.  Then again, maybe this was just a fluke and they are the only two things in the CF =)
 
I really can't agree with anything that would create more segregation. I'm Metis, I grew up in small town Northern Alberta surrounded by various different reserves. My Mom grew up on a Metis Settlement and she can remember what that was like very well. Growing up we lived 45 minutes away from said settlement, instead of on it, where we very likely could have had cheap/free housing. Why is that? To get away from the damn segregation. I hate being classified and stereotyped. I hate being told I should be looking into this program, or this scholarship, or this "handout" because of that little ID card in my wallet.

I've now joined the CF and am leaving for BMQ in 3 weeks. I do not want to be part of some "special unit" because of my race. I want to be a "person" like everyone else and go where I am needed throughout the country. I don't need a unit to highlight Native tradition and culture. If people are really interested in that, they should be studying it and practicing it on their own time. Just as every other culture does. I just want to be a soldier in the Canadian Forces, that's it, that's all. No "specialness"
 
niner domestic said:
(....) Still want to assume that a regiment could be stood up for each FN that would be able to incorporate all of the traditions of each FN? Coderre needs to have better staffers who can actually do the research before they give him his briefing notes.

Thanks for sharing more details about ethno-cultural history here, 9D - I only know a little bit about northern Ontario (and that's complex enough - let's not even start to talk about religious-spiritual divisions, righ?).

While gov't ministers have big bureaucracies (for better or worse) working on briefing notes, I'd be interested to know what kind of support opposition types get in such issues?  This strikes me as almost reflexive, rather than reflective, policy making - like someone wiser than me said earlier in the thread, "add Indian and mix".
 
Technetium said:
How much FN culture is there in the CF right now?  The day after reading this thread I recalled where CHIMO came from and saw for the first time the two Salish poles guarding the entrance to 1 CER.  Then again, maybe this was just a fluke and they are the only two things in the CF =)
I presume you may have seen this before?
MPCapBadge.gif
 
Pte Pea good words. That seems to be the general consesis of others in your situation.

Leave the politics and vote buying out of the CF. Lets soldiers, Sailors and Airmen be eqaul among themsevles.
 
One of the reasons the Libs are not in power any more is that there was no special interest group to small for them to not to try to appease. They had so many priorities and so many special interest groups to please that it just became un managable. That and the majority of ordinary Canadians began to get sick and tired of it all. I think the last year of having a government focused on the main issues and mainstream population has been a breath of fresh air....but the libs still don't get it. They elected yesterdays man's (Chretien) main cheer leader as their boss and keep harping about issues most of us couldn't give a monkey's about........I hope they like the opposition benches....and I hope Denis Coderre is never considered to run anything...ever!
 
Coderre would be eligible for the same services offered to all members of parliament:

Members also have access to Parliamentary facilities and services such as the Public Information Office and its education and visitor services; the Library of Parliament and its research services; and language training in either French or English for the Members, their spouses, and their employees. Food services are available at the Centre Block Restaurant as well as a number of cafeterias, canteens and lounges, and room service; preventive health services. Daycare services for Members and their staff, mini-bus transportation between Parliamentary buildings, and other services, such as a barber shop, beauty salon, tailor, steam room, massage therapist, recreation room and gymnasium are also accessible to Members. Further, each MP receives offices in one of the buildings around Parliament as assigned by the Sergeant-at-Arms in consultation with party officials. Finally, substantial research funds are made available to officially recognized parties (i.e. those with a minimum of 12 elected M.P.s), with Government receiving significantly more than the Official Opposition or 2nd Party Opposition.
Each Member also receives an Office Budget which can be used for Ottawa office staff costs, a constituency office and its staff costs and operating expenses, constituency travel expenses, and certain other authorized expenses. (See attached.) There is also a graduated Elector Supplement for constituencies where the number of electors is 70,000 or more, and a graduated Geographic Supplement for constituencies where the area to be served is 8000 square kilometres or more. (See attached.) Members also receive $3000 per Parliament if re-elected or $5000 if newly elected for the purchase of furniture and equipment for constituency offices. In addition, Members have free mailing privileges to anywhere in Canada and constituents may send mail to a Member free of postage from anywhere in Canada.

Also, Members may hire staff with their office budgets, whose rates of pay are determined by the Member upon appointment, but may not exceed an annual rate of $60,460, and pay increases may be made up to three times each year, not including raises resulting from promotions. Members, as employers, recruit, hire, promote, define job responsibilities, and discharge staff "for cause," although in reality staff can likely be discharged even without cause. However, MP employment practices are subject to human rights legislation if there is discrimination on gender, age, religion, race, etc. Furthermore, an MP is not allowed to hire a spouse or family members--there were even uproars in the past when M.P.s hired each other’s children. http://www.david-kilgour.com/mp/house.htm

We have a monsterous department allocated for all things First Nations, they have staffers there that spend all their days just preparing BNs for members and Ministers.  In this day and age of rapid communication ability there is no excuse for any elected member of government not to be able to research before they open mouth to insert foot. 




 
Call me crazy however I'm a big fan of the "Canadian army" as an ideal.
What happens to leadership issues?I'm not saying a Native cannot be a fantastic leader,I have met some great ones myself.However when you segregate you tend to lower the standard.What happens if a francophone commander is the better commander than the Native commander?Obviously the native commander will get the position due to it being a segregated closed unit.

How about a full African American Brigade?While were at it the homosexual brigade.White only brigade.Hell lets segregate meal lines and washrooms while were at it.Where do i sit on the bus going to Petersville every Monday?

STUPID.

...I can see the brigade patches now....rainbows.....

Shudder
 
All chinese unit! CROSS CHOPSTICKS with RICE STOCK!!! THINK ABOUT IT!!!


*sigh* why do we waste money on stupid ideas and stupid politicians who come up with said stupid ideas?!
 
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