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A "First Nations" Unit Merged Thread.

I don't think this is an attempt to get votes from the Natives but a ham fist-ed attempt to embarrass the Tories. Let's say the Libs bring this up in an election, the Tories respond that this is a ridiculous idea, the Liberals then can cry that the Tories are racist and bigoted against the Natives. This of course assumes that the electorate believes this is a good idea or even cares...
 
K to start I'm not anything close to being Native Canadian.

I have on occasion thought of this.  We all make this out to be a form of Segregation.  You don't need to send only Natives to a unit like this but allow it to be prodominantly Native.  Are there no English people in the 22nd or on the HMCS Ville de Quebec??  It could be a Unit based on Native traditions and Native Warrior traditions (not unlike a highland regiment).  It could instill allot of pride in a people who are plagued with many many social issues. 

I can think of one unit of this type in the commonwealth.  Anyone think of the Gurkhas??  They were/are considered one of the Elite units in the UK.  It would take allot of work to build a unit like the Gurkhas but it could be done.
 
Navy_Blue

That is an Apples and Oranges argument.  Gurkhas are not native to the UK.
 
Well, this whole idea does not surprise me at all. Over the last 3 decades, there has been an emerging attempt from politicians to "add Indian and mix" to various institutions throughout our country.  This one is just one of many by our elected representatives. Some others have been:

Barry Stuart J of the Yukon Bench, idea to bring a concept of a sentencing circle to northern communities that as part of their culture, never use the motifs of circles in government.  As a result an idea that was originally meant to address sentencing disparity amongst First Nations *in the north* for crimes of a *non-violent* nature has been quickly co-opted by other jurisdictions as the mechanisms to address disproportionate representation of First Nation in federal pens.  We all know how that's gone over in the courts.  

Then there was the bright idea to institute all First Nation rolls of jurors following the Donald Marshall Inquiry.  I recall one FN inmate vehemently opposed to the idea and putting it simply, that he'd rather take his chances with 12 white people than 12 Indian grandmothers.  Knowing full well the gradmothers of his FN would in all likelihood leave him out for wolf fodder.  

Then there was the Kingston business man who wanted to reenact the whole Mohawk/Loyalists/1812 thing down by the waterfront at Fort Henry by starting it off with Mohawk "warriors" shooting flaming arrows over the ramparts of the fort.

Then there was the Birkenstock brigade that wanted to introduce an eagle feather to the Supreme Court of Canada as an alternative to using a bible or using an affirmation.  This idea actually got far enough that a committee had been formed.  It was shot down when they couldn't answer the questions of, which First Nation are you going to use for the acquisition of the said feather? (in some FN one does not simply bend over and pick up a feather off the ground, there is a whole ceremony for that other FN believe that only certain people should have possession of a feather while others believe it is very important to know exactly which bird and how the feather was obtained.  What will you do when a witness (now please note here that in the SCC there is very little direct testimony from a witness - if at all) that isn't from the particular FN and wants a feather from their own FN? And lastly, who will be the keeper of the said feather? Who and why someone has a feather is quite important to FNs, so using a generic "feather" would not necessarily bind someone to an oath by using it.  So that idea got shelved.

Then there was the whole CSC thing about section 81 of the CCRA.  Some talk was shuttled back and forth about what it actually meant for fed prisoners and their communities.  It got as far as a symposium in Prince Albert in 1994.  

Then there is the total mess of the Indian Land Claim commission that for all it's necessity has only guaranteed jobs for the staff for the next 30 years as they plow through the current land claims. But the chair is an Indian so it must be a good thing.  

We'll skip over the Healing Foundation and the mess there.  

Then there was the bright idea to turn DIAND into a super ministry and staff it with 50% FN persons.  The problem at the time was there weren't enough FN public servants in the mix to apply for the *internal* postings. So there was an emergence of my great-great-great-great grandmother was a Cherokee princess type of public servant that managed to keep their job.  

Then there was the National Film Board's attempt to "Indian" up the place.  It started the Aboriginal Film Section.  Filmmakers like Bruce MacDonald seemed to have managed to tap into that  pot of money quite nicely as the criteria is limited to having one or two FN technical crew and one or two FN actors to constitute an Aboriginal film.  

Then there is Health Canada's blueprint for a sunsetting organization.  Medical Services Branch was supposed to shut up shop and have completed health transfer over to all FN by.....1999.  They are a little behind in the schedule. Seems the bean counters forgot to add into the envelope of funding the *ongoing and sustainable amounts* so FN are saying no thanks to that proverbial white elephant.  

Back in early 1993, the then Commissioner of CSC, John Edwards ordered up a study on whether there should be racial segregation(especially black and  First Nation inmates) in the pens.  His orginal thought was to prevent the issues of gangs and racial tensions.  Those at CSC quickly pointed out to Edwards that this study coming from any other commissioner might be able to be got away with but with Edwards requesting it was going to be a hot potato and potential media nightmare.  Edwards, was a former civil servant in Nigeria and South Africa - pre-Mandela.   That study is sitting on some shelf somewhere in the bowels of NHQ collecting dust.  

Still with CSC, back in the early 90s, some bright spark decided that all FN inmates needed to be rehabilitated was to get in touch with their inner Indianess.  So self appointed elders were put on contract to deliver "programs".  It was quite lucrative to get one of those contracts because all you had to do was photocopy some pages from the WhiteBearcrappinginthewood's new age touchy feely book on real-honest-to-goodness-Indian ceremonies and hand them out to the inmates and tell them to walk the red road.  Six weeks later, hand them all a fancy-schmancy certificate and tell them they are all warriors.  

Then there was the brilliant government idea to re-initiate aboriginal language training after spending a century trying to quash anyone from speaking it.  But, someone decided that by 2050, there would be only three linguistic groups surviving (this is just a remake of the 1920 museum period's prediction that by 1960 all FN would be gone or assimilated) so oodles of money got thrown into Cree, Inuit and Haudausonee.  Then in a innocuous little survey done by a school board in Kingston Ontario, it came to light that what was originally thought to have a number of maybe 30 FN kids in the area interested in learning a language, turned out to have over 1600 kids and their parents who were First Nation. This started a reexamination of off reserve stats. The feds in true form, handed that language envelope to the province's boards of education to sort out.  

Are you starting to see a pattern?

Coderre's idea will last as long as the NAVA has to shoot him down.  This is not about votes, or attempts to embarrass the current government - this is just another case of an attempt to add Indian and mix...
 
 
For another fine example of how ethincly segragated units operate, Mr Coderre should look to the example of Former Yugoslavia in the 1990's.......
 
IN fact ,The Gurkhas are "mercenary soldiers " who fight for pay. They sign for a 21 year contract, and only recently have they been granted any pension rights by the UK Government, so a poor compariosn to this idiotic idea spawned by this Liberal MP.

Racially segregated CF units ? Crazy. Totally crazy.

Jim B. Toronto.
 
Hmm.... do you think they would form a Battalion of Lesbians ???
I think that would be interesting - really!
(though I would certainly not want to get in their way - on a bad day)
 
Regarding the Gurkha units within the British Army,

While most folks consider the word Gurkha to be representative of a Nepalese citizen the fact is historically this has not been true.  Traditionally these troops and units have recruited primarily from the martial minded tribes of central Nepal...Gurung, Magar, Tamang, Khasa and Kiranti tribes.  However this is just a fraction of the groups in Nepal as the link attached shows:
http://nefin.org.np/content/blogcategory/67/40/

So basically what you have is a famed regiment that has traditionally been racially based from only 5 out 55 tribes in the country.  During times of conflict huge numbers of the non-core tribal groups have signed up but recruiting is still very selective.

What does this all mean for Canada?

Well consider if Canada created the Aboriginal Unit as proposed but only recruited from the 6 Nations of Central Canada?  Or the Plains Confederation?  Now we're into a situation that is even worse than before because we now have a selective racial based unit that in turn is racially selecting members for the unit based upon their warrior traditions.

It's a no win situation.


 
Imagine this. Oka, The once Famed Native Regiment has now gone into a full on blockade of their traditional land here. They have tanks, AFV's, Anti tank rockets and helicopter support and Fighter Jets.

Over the past 15 years we have set this group of what once were proud soldiers with this high tech equipment and high end training. This was thought to have brought around the redevelopment of Native rights with in Canada and rejoin what was once a far distant memory of what was wrongfully down to them by our fore fathers over 100 years ago and then 20 years ago.  Only a paper agreement that todays elders say was brought about with trickery and onyl the white mans best interest.

We have been living in solitude, we have been asked to live by Canadain Laws, but those laws do not allow me to carry on my tradtional rights as a Native. These include bartering for my basic necssitys, hunting for my food, carrying out my tradtional ceremoines. (involves smuggling smokes at discount prices, shooting animal with high powered rifles, hunting wales with jet boats and again very high powered rifles, over fishing areas that have not been touched by anyone but them selves for 5 years.)


I understand the thought behind this politician's idea of forming a Native Regiment. Sounds all good. Except if you are going to do something like this it needs to be for the right reasons.
As far as I can tell if a exodous of Natives are leaving for the US to Join their military then I have to ask a few questions. Who are they loyal to? What are their traditional rights upon return to Canada? Do they claim special status when they join? Why have they abandoned their proud land that they speak so freely of defending?

To any politicians who wants to break Our country up further then it already is, think twice about it. I will fight to the bitter end to ensure that Canada stays as Canada. Not some political crap shoot you call your job. 
 
American & Canadian Indians In The Military
US/Canadian Indian Tribes
Serving as of April 1, 2003
Source: Immigration Policy Center and U.S. Defense Department

Army - 2,985 Eskimo - 98 Aleut - 79 = 3,162
Navy - 7,068 Eskimo - 116 Aleut - 199 = 7,383
USMC - 1,111 Eskimo - 30 Aleut - 31 = 1,172
USAF - 1,696 Eskimo - 30 Aleut - 22 = 1,748
US/Canadian Indians total = 12,860, plus
Eskimo - 274 & Aleut - 291 Total = 13, 425
Grand Total All Serving = 1,401,128

Interesting related sites:

The People's Path Home: http://www.yvwiiusdinvnohii.net/military.htm

Turtle Island Native Network: http://www.turtleisland.org/news/news-veterans.htm

 
First Nations can join the US military because of the Jay Treaty.  Just as anyone else who has rights to abode in the UK, Aus, NZ or the US can also join that respective country's military.  Can one of you please explain to me what the difference in your thinking is of a FN joining the US mil as opposed to the many threads on Canadians leaving a joining the UK forces, or ANZAC? Why is that not questioned whereas a FN leaving Canada is?


CTD, your post is confusing, are you setting out an argument to convey a potential scenario that upon training, a FN would turn that training for their own use in some distant future? Are you questioning the loyalty of FN that are serving, have served and are about to serve? Please clarify.




 
While Coderre's idea to re-insitute what basically amounts to segregation is undoubtedly wrong, and flat out idiotic, I think Navy Blue's idea is kind of interesting. Why not a regiment (like the highland regiments) based on native traditions, but composed of everyone?
 
Seyek said:
While Coderre's idea to re-insitute what basically amounts to segregation is undoubtedly wrong, and flat out idiotic, I think Navy Blue's idea is kind of interesting. Why not a regiment (like the highland regiments) based on native traditions, but composed of everyone?

Better yet, why not just focus on the individual unit. Let the Unit build its' own History and Tradition, irrespective of where the people came from or what religion/color they were?
 
GAP said:
Better yet, why not just focus on the individual unit. Let the Unit build its' own History and Tradition, irrespective of where the people came from or what religion/color they were?

+1

This segregation thing is a stupid idea.
 
Niner Domestic. I come from a Native background, though I use that very loosely. Because my Great Grandma was full blooded. But untill recently I have know very little about it, growing up in the rest of Canada. Making a living for myself and not blaming the failures of where I came from onto others who have no control over the matter.  

I am not advocating that people who are already or may join the CF in the future are going to be disloyal.
I am just giving out a scenerio that is not that far fetched from what I have seen over the past while from some of these special groups.  

One idea which makes more sense to me would be to stand to a Regiment in the North. Full time infantry soldiers. The primary recruiting group would be the Inuit. Why? they already live there. Those wishing to go there would have a choice. But this unit would be responsible not only for Artic soverinty but also for over seas deployments.

This would serve a purpose and could be better suited for the idea of a Native style unit in Canada. Which will combine the customs of the different peoples in Canada to join together.

I am still against a unit soley staffed of one group of people in Canada.
To each their own.

One thing I will note is that if the Liberals think they are going to win the next election on promising the Natives their own Military Unit, and promising Eastern Canada more money for Kick backs I think they have another thing comming to them.  

If you like it or not the Goverment in place right now has stood up for Canadians as a whole. For better or worse they have made some very tough decisions. Which the Liberals and other partys have waffled on.

Cheers.








 
I think that a unit made up of just one group of people is a bad idea. You tend to lose a wealth of experience that you would usually have from the various backgrounds. As far as aboriginals in the CF, there are several Aboriginal recruiting programs already in effect. The PRTC, Op Raven and Op Bold Eagle are three of the better known ones right now. Several years ago, there was a bit of a recruiting drive for up north when HMCS Montreal went up to the Northern native cummunities with some aboriginal recruiters from the navy on board. They had a few sign up and with the other programs we usually average about 11 to 18 candidates who will be sworn in. Last year in Esquimalt for the PRTC we had 11 people who were sworn in in their respective communities.
Feet. :cdn:
 
Those programs work well. Why can't the Liberals leave things well alone.
 
Further to what I said about the New Zealand Army...

Though they combine the British colonial traditions with Maori warrior traditions and have a large proportion of Maori members, Maori and whites are not segregated into seperate units.

Below is a picture of Kiwi troops on parade.  Note that rather than wearing scarlet sashes, the NCOs are wearing sashes that have a distinct Maori pattern to them.  Note that the NCOs pictured in the sashes are white.

sdar2tn.jpg
 
Along the lines of what RangerRay mentioned,  I think it would be cool to have a Native Regiment, similar to how we have Highlander Regiments where the traditions are Scottish, but the unit is comprised of soldiers of any heritage.  This has nothing to do with what Mr Coderre is suggesting, I just thought it would be cool.
 
Technetium said:
Along the lines of what RangerRay mentioned,  I think it would be cool to have a Native Regiment, similar to how we have Highlander Regiments where the traditions are Scottish, but the unit is comprised of soldiers of any heritage.  This has nothing to do with what Mr Coderre is suggesting, I just thought it would be cool.


Maybe this is what they are planning, make different regiments, then people will join "their regiment". Just a thought.
 
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