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9mm Browning Replacement

Banja Luka was a different place, and the "powers that be" were very keen on things like dress and deportment, proper rifle salutes, what headdress was beig worn etc. The guy with the sign out sheets needed his hands free as well...

We moved to VK for about a month and it a much different environment there.
 
Hey all

I don't mean to hijack the thread (well, maybe a little bit)

I have been doing lots of shooting with semi's lately and have recently started using BT (Black Talon) ammo. I find that the amount of miss and double feeds has gone way up. Normal duty ammo being the Jacketed Hollow-Point round in 9mm. The weapons used are the Glock 17, a Norinco Sig (9mm) and a Smith and Wesson Model 59.

Can anyone else add to, or explain that, at all?

Slim
 
One thing that I am very pleased with this thread was the few, if any, posts from untrained and uneducated individuals making irrelevant comments.  Not that my opinion makes any difference, because it is just that. 
I would say when we go with a new pistol, it chamber a round larger than that of 9mm.  By no means am I a proponent for this caliber and in my opinion the only positives it has is a large magazine capacity and is easy to shoot.  I and I know many others would prefer to see a pistol chambered for the .40S&W or even better the .45ACP.  A soldier using a pistol will very rarely, if ever, engage a target past 20 metres.  Therefore, when talking about the range of a weapon system using the 5.7mm round is irrelevant, and the mass of the round is simply too small.  I'm not going to get into terminal ballistics, because it was brifly discussed in the springfield xd thread.
I like what A_Majoor said "pistols if neccessary, but not neccessarily pistol."  I believe it goes hand-in-hand with what KevinB said about the transition between primimary and seconday weapons.  I believe the latter is especially true when operating in urban/CQB environments.  There is a reason why SF and tactical police units are trained the transition.  It works and it will save ones life.  It is much faster to employ the transition that conduct your IA drills with your primary weapon in a high threat, high stress environment.  Once a room has been cleared or a hostile situation been taken control of, one can revert back to their primary weapon conducts thier IA's and continue with the their operation. 
This bring up another issue, the holster.  I was glad to see it was too addressed.  I am inclined to agree with Morpheus32 and believe that the modern infantry soldier does not require a triple retention holster.  I do believe they require some type of retention holster just not one with all the bells and whistles.  When is time of need, there are just more safety measures to keep you from retrieving your weapon.  A friend of mine who went down to the States recently told me that these types of holsters can do more harm than good.  He attended a combatives seminar while there and witnessed that in a high stress environments some cops had difficulty unholstering their weapons.  He went on to say some couldn't draw their pistol because of the position they were in, kneeling laying on their backs.  I say, what good is a holster if you can't draw the weapon out of it.  This wasn't the case with all the holsters, but a few.  A lot of us have watched the 'worlds most dangerous police encounters' shows.  Have you guys ever seen how long it takes some of those officers to draw their weapons.....  If you watch carefully, they sometimes take 3 or 4 attempts at drawing until successful.  Trying to keep moving, keep an eye on the threat, while unsnapping, twisting and pushing or pulling on the pistol seems like to many variables to contend with.  With training, this can be overcome, but from my own experience and the experience of others if that there enough training with these weapons and holsters.  I would much rather see/be issued a Blackhawk CQB holster, almost the best of both worlds, even it would accompany a pistol with a light attached, it would be perfect in my view. 
Thanks to those who are still with me at the end of this post, your time, patience and interest is appreciated.  Enough for now......
 
That C8CQB sure is sexy, wouldn't mind employing that at a VCP or at the gate.  Wait, is this a irrelevant comment.....  DAMMIT.
 
Im not SF (as much as I'd like to be  ;D) however Canadian troops especially Light Infantry types are called on to do many of the so called SF operations simply due to the limited size of JTF and the fact that using a TierI asset for tier II duties is a waste of highend manpower.

Pistols - I think every combat arm solider NEEDS one - Frankly I would like .45 cause if you just have to shoot someone you want a BIG hole at the ranges we are talking about. 

More to follow - I have a few hours to go out an visit family
 
KevinB said:
... Pistols - I think every combat arm solider NEEDS one - Frankly I would like .45 cause if you just have to shoot someone you want a BIG hole at the ranges we are talking about ...

A few years ago we heard a story from the Sigs O during the Second World War - apparently they were picking up some equipment in England and there "just happened" to be a crate of pistols lying there ... so, of course, they figured they were supposed to pick them up, too ... he said they were worth their weight in gold to the signallers - something that always sticks in my mind ...

Yup - it never hurts to have a backup weapon, and a pistol is lighter than another long barrel (although personally I'd love to have a shotgun, too - since, after all, both the pistol and shotgun have at some point in time been referred to as "The Equalizer" ...)
 
I'll go back to my statement as an aircrew...  The pistol is a must in that if we need to get out in a hurry (ie burning chopper in a smoking hole), at least that gun is strapped to you.  However, if we have to hump it back home, or go hide somewhere awaiting CSAR, I'd rather have something with a little more firepower and range (ie, not shotguns or 9mm MP-5) than just a pistol.  Another important consideration is that the DND will never buy anything else than "ball" ammo, so maybe pistol in .40 or .45 would be nicer.  Otherwise, a 9mm in JHP+P or Hydra-Shock would be awesome.
 
I think the 10.3" C8CQB has a place from roles like Laps mentioned - and in limited use for VCP duties (I always like a gun barrel I can point at a driver withou having to draw back very far...)

That and a dedicated "bug out bag" for certain roles - if you go down and have to bail you can get out with a few esentials.

By far the biggest problem is that as a_majoor pointed out a fundemental mindset issue that has to be addressed.
The kinder gentler army is all well and good in the theoretically - unfortunately when the warm and fuzzy's interfer with the bayonet that is the problem.  Saluting in theatre is ridiculous - as the formal crap can take away from the GUARD doing his or her duties - secondly it can identify officers who in some theatres really dont want to be identified, thirdly it does not instill any advantage - my respect for an officer is not chnaged if I do or do not salute him (or her) - similarily officers I have complete contempt for I can be incredibly formal to.

What I think we should do - is adopt the C8 for all non combat arms personnel (it is a light simply and yet effective weapon system) issue some pistols to these troops where nec. - and for all combat arms and certain combat support pers issue the C8SFW and pistol to (still issuing the C9 and C6 etc...)



Slim - Winchester dropped the BT line a while ago now the Ranger SXT is their premium LE ammunition (a better version of the BH as you were) they have SXT (non Ranger line) and other JHP loads - or do you have the older BT rounds?
The 147gr Ranger SXT is one of the 5 top 9mm performers.




 
Hey Kev

Ammotech was kind enough to steer me via PM. It seems that the boss got some (a box of boxes) full of actual BT ammo. What closet this has come out of is still a mystery but I'm guessing that they're pretty old and, as ammotech said, there is no longer any lubrication on the round, hence the slide-stoppages and miss-feeds.

We currently use jacketed HP as our round of choice and it works very well for us. The BT was just getting burnt off for practice. I will tell the boss about the Ranger SXT and see if we can get our hands on some.

Thanks though.

Slim
 
Sorry, Kev, for the misunderstanding, but I was aware you and the PPCLI aren't SF.  I didn't mean to puff your ego, if I did, I would have said "Kevin you're the coolest soldier alive, I want to be just like you," and would have made googily eyes at you.  I was eluding to your statement that some higher-ups think that the transition is a frill and how it isn't widely trained.  It really is too bad that such a mentality prevails and that kind of attitude does nothing to further the growth of soldiers.....

I would like to see something along the lines of the new Marine MEU pistol.  Basically a specialized 1911 with a light attached.  Theirs is a Kimber, either that or a Para-Ordnance would be nice.  I would settle for a USP too, though.
 
Kal,
Unfortunately even "elesewhere" there seem to be a difference of opinion on the issue of transition...
Those who recommend "taking a knee" upon a stoppage on entry miss the point you have now put you least armoured (head) area in the typical line of fire of the enemy while removing your most armoured area (chest) from it.

MAR SOC Kimber - a very nice gun (for the USMC's fledgling Det1 [well I guess a year and a bit now] addition to USSOC)  The MEU-SOC gun is handbuilt by the smiths at Quantico Precision Weaponshop (by Marines for Marines) however PWS could not keep up, and the Kimber was an 'interim' solution.  (note: MAR SOC is for MARINE Special Operations while MEU-SOC is MARINE Expeditionary Unit-Special Opaeratiosn Capable)

 
Thanks for the clarification, Kevin.  Just wondering, though, what weapon would you choose for a new pistol, realistically speaking, of course.  No Wilson Combat CQB's with streamlights attached, although would love to see them, doubt the government would pay for a new 2500$ pistol.  Maybe if the Conservatives were in leadership, but still unlikely.........
 
Kal - I dont think non SOF units should have a Single Action pistol - as I dont think the training is their to use it safely enough in large numbers.  That said I would simply open the warstock guns and issue them all out - buying Sig P226 as replacements when the Inglis's give up the ghost.

In bulk the MARSOC Kimber would be less than 1K, but as I said before I think only the SOF units get enough range time to safely employ the cocked and locked - and in the general service issue the DoubletoSingle transition from firts to secondshot will not affect our shooting - however in a surgical Direct Action mission the single action can be very welcome.





 
Speaking of transition drills I have to wonder if NLBPs and the army are taught the same method.
 
Pistols - An American shooting guru by the name of ?????? Cooper once stated, " if you want to shoot a handgun well you need two things, a good 45 ACP and a boxcar full of ammo". Although the first point is and will always be a subject of endless debate the later are sage words. The ONLY way to shot a handgun well is to shoot it lots.

It is far better to hit a target... ;D ... w/ a 9mm than miss it w/ a 45 ACP or any other wpn.

BHP - my god man, Johnaton Moses Browning designed this wpn in 1935, it's original name was the GP-35. I would be far more respectfull of an oldtimer who was good w/ a BHP than a wipper-snapper who was so-so w/ any new space gun/pistol you care to name.

I have and love my Sig P226, it's a great pistol and I'm glad the CF has adopted the P225.

The BHP in the CF are way past worn out, it is very rare to find a tight BHP in the inventory. Since the P225 is already in the inventory, in limited No's w/ the Navy and MP's, it would make sense to adopt the P226. If we keep it as long as we have the BHP it would be money well spent.... with money out aside for shooter training.





Edited to keep the forum investigation free.
 
Gotta jump in here, I've used BHPs and I like them, but they are past their shelf life in the CF.

Sig P225s are in use, so it makes sense to replace the BHP w/ other Sigs.

Then again, I'm biased, I like my P228 clone. After having put <2000rds through it; my preference is with a Sig currently.

As a sidebar:
I spent the most time training on a .45 Springfield Armoury 1911 over the years. After I left the Infantry and began to consider the Navy, that's when I decided to purchase a Sig (clone). Without a prohibited licence, a Sig P225 is unavailable, the Norinco 9mm NP-34 (P228 clone) is the closest pistol to train with legally on the range for a civilian.

9mm/.40S&W CZ-75/85s deserve consideration for individual range time also, not neccessarily for BHP replacement, but a good option overall for DA/SA training.

Thoughts?
 
I had until recently the NP-22 ,Sig P226 clone and now have the NZ_85b, clone of the CZ-85b. Despite not firing a pistol for 15 years I found the Sig P226 design incredible easy to use. The slide is easily grasped (unlike my NZ). The decocker is simple and safe, no chance of accidentally dropping the hammer. The gun is ready to shoot as soon as your finger is on the trigger, no safety to forget or fumble with, shoots very nicely and easy to clean (No tools required, unlike the 1911 and CZ)

I plan to get a Sig P226, prefer the balance over the P228. Also the Sig P220 is in .45 and can easily be converted to fire .40, 357 S&W and I believe 9mm

US Coast Guard and Homeland Security just announced Sig as the winner of their competition using the Sig P226,228DAK and the P239DAO

The DAK give a constant trigger pull of 6.5 lbs if I remember correctly and is only in DA It  has gotten good reviews

The P239 is designed for smaller hands, so everyone can train on similar pistols.

I love the BHP and want one, but like everything, time has come to start replacing it 
 
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