9mm Browning Replacement

[rceme_rat]

With all the major projects that are sitting waiting, I suspect this is hardly anybody‘s priority project.

Nonetheless, does anyone know if there is a pending replacement project for the pistol? Potential replacements? Same or different calibre? Other specs?

Or, if there is no such project, does anyone think there should be -- and if so, what would you propose as specs on the new weapon?

Finally, does anyone think the pistol just isn‘t necessary anymore and that a C8 should be issued to all those who currently carry the pistol (whether they also carry a C7 or not)?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Well, I suppose we could jump on board like everyone else and replace it. Personally though, I find there‘s nothing wrong with the Browning. It has a large mag capacity, is suited to our overpowered 9MM round, it‘s sturdy and simple. Properly tuned and accurized, it‘s a fine pistol. The only thing it lacks is the double action trigger pull for the first round. The 2x pull is normally a long, creepy affair that takes much getting used to to score a fast, first round hit. With the hammer cocked on the Browning, a first round hit can be accomplished just as quick. We have other things to spend our money on.

 

[Spanky]

I agree with recceguy. There is nothing wrong with the present pistol. They should be more readily available however. There are certain jobs that do not require a long arm on a regular basis. It should be fired on a range more regularly as well.

 

[portcullisguy]

However, we already know that it is scheduled to be replaced at some point.

Has anyone given thought to what the replacement might be? Is Ottawa testing or sourcing out replacements?

The Americans went with the Beretta, which upset all the U.S. gun mfg‘rs.

We only have one civilian pistol manufacurer here, Para-Ordanance, and they‘re not known for 9mm Para pistols. I didn‘t see any pistols on Diemaco‘s website.

My personal preference would be for something simple and easy to maintain, such as the Glock. As much as I hate the Glock, it is cheaper than the other "space guns" out there, such as the Smith & Wesson, the H&K USP (which I already own, in .40 cal), and others. They have suitable magazine capacity, but are $800+ per gun, with expensive spare magazines ($90 for my H&K). A lot of people in the gun industry don‘t trust the "plastic" guns such as Glock, H&K USP, etc., but then another camp swear by the modern guns, and have put the all-steel pistols out to pasture.

 

[rceme_rat]

I enjoyed firing the Glock when I had the opportunity on the Golan (was range officer when the Austrians were shooting).

My concerns are that the Brownings must be getting to the point where they are just worn out. I expect they are also quite a bit heavier than modern equivalents. There are also better safety features available on modern weapons.

As far as calibre goes, I was wondering whether it is necessary to stay 9mm since it is now a unique calibre, as would be any pistol calibre (the SMG long having been retired). Any pistol ammo is going to be a logistical burden, so we can adopt whichever one has the best combination of range, penetration, stopping power, and magazine capacity. Of course, if the NATO standard remains 9mm, that is a consideration - as is the fact that he US is using 9mm.

Anyone have any idea how much trade protection Para-Ordnance gets by virtue of being the sole Canadian handgun manufacturer? Is there a duty on non-US manufacturers?

 

[Marauder]

We have pistols? No sh!t, guess you learn something new every day.

I would venture to say the SIGArms P226 would be worth looking at, seeing that the SEALs abuse the crap outta theirs and still love them. I also seem to recall someone saying that most other SOCOM & worldwide SO outfits use them. I also heard our own lads at Dwyer Hill use them too, so there must be a PAM for them buried somewhere in NDHQ. They‘re 9mm‘s and are all steel IIRC, so that should quell most major griping.

Although I would love to be able to shoot a HK USP Tactical or a 1911 (hotrodded like the Marines do with their MEU(SOC) 1911‘s) in an "official" capacity.

But we should be doing some range work with the damn things we have now. I know there is going to be a new indoor and outdoor range at this new armouries they are building in Windsor, but I hear they are for the 5-0 only, and we get a "Thanks for coming out" pat on the head. WTF, they trust us with auto assault rifles, but we‘re too f%cking stupid to shoot and maintain a pistol??? Maybe the People Upstairs can cut a deal with General Gun & Supply for us to use the range, like maybe one full Saturday every 3/4 months or something, where the troops that want to get some trigger time on the Brownings can put some ammo downrange and learn how to clean and maintain the things.
But that would make some f%cking sense, so God knows that‘s anthema.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Most trades don‘t get pistol trg anymore as there are only certain units that use them in their roles. MP‘s and Armoured recce for a couple. The ammo draw is very small and expensive also. Hence, most people don‘t see them.

 

[portcullisguy]

Originally posted by rceme_rat:
[Of course, if the NATO standard remains 9mm, that is a consideration - as is the fact that he US is using 9mm.[/QB]

Much to the disappointment of the Americans, you are right. NATO‘s standard is 9mm Parabellum. It is not likely to change. The U.S. preferred and asked NATO to use the .45 ACP cartridge, as it is subsonic (can be easily silenced), has very good stopping power, and good overall penetrative power. The 9mm is overpowered, and as a result, zips through most things with hardly the same punch. I have heard that the 9mm will deflect off common laminated windshield safety glass at oblique angles, without penetrating.

.45 ACP is a U.S. calibre. Although common in the U.S., it isn‘t common anywhere else. It is also more expensive than 9mm. The ‘niner‘ is by far the most common handgun cartridge in the western world, and in particular Europe. Since NATO doctrine always (previously) envisioned a land war in Europe, this was thought to be the deciding factor -- availability of a cheap, common round that was easily produced in large quantities in existing ammunition factories in Europe.

Personally, my vote would be for the 10mm or the .40S&W, which blend the .45‘s stopping power, with the high capacity of the 9mm. Of course it isn‘t common at all in Europe, and it is comparitively more expensive to produce because of that. The 10mm in particular has not been subjected to enough ballistics tests, and has been hampered by lack of mfg‘r support. Only the FBI use it. Others that the European armies would probably support are .380 ACP and .32 cal, both of which are used in civvie police agencies in Europe, but are generally considered to be underpowered for military use.

[qb]Anyone have any idea how much trade protection Para-Ordnance gets by virtue of being the sole Canadian handgun manufacturer? Is there a duty on non-US manufacturers?[/qb]

Of course, U.S.-made anything is duty free, thanks to NAFTA.

The Most-Favoured Nation Tariff Treatment rate on pistols and revolvers is 3.5% duty. The HS Code for handguns is 9302.00.00.10 (revolvers) and 9302.00.00.20 (pistols).

However, many countries qualify for duty free import of pistols and revolvers. Besides NAFTA (which includes Mexico and the US), other zero-rated tariff treatments are: NZT (New Zealand Tariff), CIAT (Canada-Israel Agreement on Tariffs), LDCT (Least-Developed Country Tariff), GPT (General Preferential Tariff), and two which I am sure are the Caribbean-Canada Tariff and the Commonwealth Tariff.

MFN countries generally are limited to just Europe. Even China, believe it or not, qualifies as a "General Preferential Tariff" country.

Of course, arms and ammunition for military purposes also require an Import (or Export) Permit from the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade, as they are subject to quotas and other controls, and this may increase the cost of importing certain goods.

 

[Brock]

I am not really sure why no one else on this boaord seems to no know that the Sig P-225 and Sig P-226 are in CF use. The Military Police, JTF 2, and the Navy boarding parties all use the P-225. The P-225 has an 8 round capacity and thus has a small pistol grip. This better enables females and males with small hands to fire a pistol. The P-226 is a high capacity variant of the P-225; the P-226 holds 15 rounds. It is used by the JTF 2. However, I do not know if it is in service anywhere else in the CF.

It is reasonable to assume that the CF will eventually phase out the Browning 9mm over time in favour of the P-225/P-226 given that they are already in limited service with the CF. They also happen to be some of the best 9mm pistols in use anywhere, another plus.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

The Sigs have been in use for specialized units for a long time now with no talk about them being a replacement forces wide. I won‘t hold my breath.

 

[rceme_rat]

I‘m aware of both Sig-Sauer weapons being in use. I‘m also aware that their cost is quite high and I doubt they would be adopted universally.

Para-Ordnance has an excellent reputation in the U.S. shooting community. It commonly produces .45, .40, and 10mm. It also produces 9mm but doesn‘t make a big deal about it, probably because of its focus on the sport shooting market.

Additionally, Para-Ordnance has developed a reputation for honesty, integrity, and safety -- it was one of the few handgun producers that was able to be dismissed from a class action lawsuit because its advertising was clearly not aimed at buyers seeking low-price, anonymous handguns.

Thanks for the above info on import duties. From this, we can conclude that Para-Ordnance would only have a political advantage, not a governmentally imposed price advantage.

 

[meamer]

My vote would be for the Sig-Sauer products. They are already in the system, and are good, reliable weapons. They come in any configuration you want (double-single action, double action only etc) and the different models fit different hand sizes (staggered mags versus straight mags). By the way, the Sigs are not all steel, the lower receiver is a composite alloy - much lighter than all steel, the slide is all steel though. I would also stick with 9mm, although I carry a .40 S&W P229, it wouldn‘t make sense to be the only guy on the battlefield using non standard ammo. :cam:

 

[MikeH]

I was certain that the only pistol being
considered is the FN Five-Seven in 5.7mm,
depending on whether the P90 gets
selected as our new Personal Defence
Weapon -- PDW being the trendy new
name for SMG.

Remember reading something from the
puzzle palace that only the 5.7mm could
reliably defeat body armour in a pistol
calibre.

Although buying ten-inch barrelled uppers
for the C8‘s and scrapping pistols altogether
would probably make more sense.

MikeH

 

[TOW2B]

The Brownings were due to be replaced ,but considering the fact that we have so many refurbished Bronings in War tocks it was decided to continue to use it until the replacement parts were depleted.The P-225 is for use with special duty units(Navy Borading Parties for example) and MPs the P-226 is issued to JTF and some pilots.The PDW made by Diemaco is the likely replacement the FN P-90 is too expensive and is not seriously being conidered although JTF 2 may be using them already (they trialed them a couple of years back).The Diemaco PDW is essentially a C-8 with a 7 -10 inch barrel heavy barrel and will be issued to WOG units that have no need for a rifle and to AFV Crews in the rest of the Combat Arms.On an interesting note the Linemen are in line to be issued MP-5 A3s for use when out on repair calls while deployed...It is an excellent weapon but is not meant for field use with any luck they will go with a weapon better suited to their field work

 

[rceme_rat]

So what we have is a proliferation of different small arms, rather than a movement towards a single personal weapon, or at least, a family of personal weapons?

Just what we need to drive up the costs of training, repair and supply of spare parts and ammo!

 

[Marauder]

You‘re forgetting the most important, critical issue that pertains to any piece of kit the CF hopes to own:

Can it be made in Shawinigan for an outrageously expensive amount that will let the Liberals skim a bit off the top for the party‘s "warchest"?

(Ironic that the government can wage a "leadership war", but we settle for looking like innocent ****ing Boy Sprouts, huh?)

 

[Zoomie]

I believe that the Sig P225/6 is more widely in use than this forum believes. CPC Trenton have their own allotment of these same weapons. They use them for qualifying their staff (maybe Pathfinder courses too).

 

[baboon6]

Have seen quite a few pics of 3 PPCLI in Afghanistan with pistols, who would be issued them, looks mainly like officers and machine gunners. Going off-topic a bit, what is the establishment of a Cdn rifle platoon, 3 PPCLI‘s all seem to be of different sizes, due to personnel shortage?

 

[Gelan]

I personally don‘t like the Browning, as it has outdated safety features, is unsafe to carry it around with a round chambered. Not fun to have your sidearm go off in your holster...

I would have to agree with the SiG/Sauer weapons. Nicely ergonomic, but expensive.

 

[scm77]

Approx. How many years before the Browning 9mm is replaced? Is it true that it‘s from WWII? If that is indeed true then there is no reason why it shouldn‘t already be replaced.