Justin Trudeau hints at boosting Canada’s military spending

I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Same table reorganized

Country	Def Exped	GDP (billions)	Per capita	Pers #	Eqpt %	Pers %	Infstr %	Other %
	(millions)	/ % def exp	GDP / def exp
United States	811,140​	20,601 / 3.52	62,100 / 2,186	1351.5​	29.35​	37.47​	1.58​	31.59​
United Kingdom	72,765​	3,014 / 2.29	44,700 / 1,023	156.2​	24.26​	32.69​	1.42​	41.64​
Germany	64,785​	3,521 / 1.53	42,200 / 644	189.1​	18.55​	41.75​	3.69​	36.06​
France	58,729​	2,534 / 2.01	37,400 / 751	208​	27.8​	42.53​	3.02​	26.65​
Italy	29,763​	1,821 / 1.41	30,500 / 428	174.2​	28.9​	60.54​	1.67​	8.89​
Canada	26,523​	1,697 / 1.39	44,100 / 632	71.1​	17.66​	47.5​	3.32​	31.52​
Spain	14,875​	1,250 / 1.02	26,200 / 267	123.9​	22.75​	60.12​	0.73​	16.41​
Netherlands	14,378​	828 / 1.45	47,100 / 685	40.8​	26.2​	47.26​	3.26​	23.28​
Poland	13,369​	575 / 2.10	15,000 / 314	121.2​	26.1​	47.92​	4.97​	21.01​
Turkey	13,057​	1,073 / 1.57	12,700 / 199	445.4​	29.05​	52.47​	1.95​	16.53​

“The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars / But in ourselves," - an appropriate thought as we approach the Ides of March.

I am a big fan of, and major proponent of, increasing our Defence Expenditure to 2% of GDP. I think it would be lovely if we achieved 3.52% of GDP like the US. I would even take the 0.7% of GDP that we are supposed to set aside for foreign aid make it available for humanitarian operations conducted by the Department of National Defence.

But I also agree with those that argue that Cabinet, Treasury Board, Public Services and Procurement Canada, DND and the Canadian Armed Forces wouldn't have a clue how to spend that. Not just on what to spend but the mechanisms necessary to get the money where it needs to be in a timely fashion.

The logistics of money?

The first problem we face is defining the amount of money sent to people, fellow Canadians, that are being hired to wield the tools of defence, and how much is being spent on the tools themselves.

Country	Active military	Reserve military	Paramilitary	Total	% of Popn	% of Popn
					(total)	(active)
Turkey	355,200​	378,700​	156,800​	890,700​	1.08​	0.43​
United States	1,395,350​	843,450​	0​	2,238,800​	0.67​	0.42​
France	203,250​	41,050​	100,500​	344,800​	0.51​	0.3​
Poland	114,050​	0​	75,400​	189,450​	0.5​	0.3​
Italy	161,550​	17,900​	176,350​	355,800​	0.57​	0.26​
Spain	122,850​	14,900​	75,800​	213,550​	0.45​	0.26​
United Kingdom	153,200​	75,450​	0​	228,650​	0.35​	0.23​
Germany	183,400​	30,050​	0​	213,450​	0.27​	0.23​
Netherlands	33,600​	6,000​	6,500​	46,100​	0.27​	0.19​
Canada	66,500​	34,400​	4,500​	105,400​	0.28​	0.18​

Before we look at how much we pay ourselves to defend ourselves we should probably take a look at how many of us we hire to do the fighting for us.

We employ 0.18% of our total population of 38,000,000 to defend us. To fight for us.
We hire 66,500 of us to do the fighting for the other 37,933,500 of us.
66,500 of us to operate the tools necessary to keep threats away from us.

	Personnel
Country	Active military	% of Budget	Expenditure	Expenditure
				per active mbr
		%	(millions)	USD
Turkey	355,200​	52.47	6,851	19,288
United States	1,395,350​	37.47	303,934	217,819
France	203,250​	42.53	24,977	122,890
Poland	114,050​	47.92	6,406	56,172
Italy	161,550​	60.54	18,019	111,535
Spain	122,850​	60.12	8,943	72,795
United Kingdom	153,200​	32.69	23,787	155,267
Germany	183,400​	41.7	27,015	147,303
Netherlands	33,600​	47.26	6,795	202,233
Canada	66,500​	47.5	12,598	189,450

Canada is not stingy when it comes to covering its personnel. It looks pretty good compared the $19,288 per year that Turkey spends on each service person. It compares very favourably to Britain, France, Germany and Italy. The only countries that spend more on their people than Canada are the Netherlands and the US.

We spend a lot on our people.

We don't spend a lot on the tools they need.

Country	Active military	Equipment
		% of Budget	Expenditure	Expenditure
				per active mbr
			(millions)	USD
United States	1,395,350	29.35	$ 238,070	$ 170,616
United Kingdom	153,200	24.26	$ 17,653	$ 115,227
Netherlands	33,600	26.20	$ 3,767	$ 112,114
France	203,250	27.80	$ 16,327	$ 80,328
Canada	66,500	17.66	$ 4,684	$ 70,436
Germany	183,400	18.55	$ 12,018	$ 65,527
Italy	161,550	28.90	$ 8,602	$ 53,244
Poland	114,050	26.10	$ 3,489	$ 30,595
Spain	122,850	22.75	$ 3,384	$ 27,546
Turkey	355,200	29.05	$ 3,793	$ 10,679

Poland, Spain and Turkey have special economic circumstances that put them in a different category to Canada.

Canada is a G7 country. An position it shares with France, Germany and Italy, as well as the UK and the US.
We can afford to do better. We should do better.

The Netherlands, a strong EU member and not notably a warmonger, is in the same league as the US and the UK spending $112,000 annually to supply the necessary tools for its defence. This compares to the $115,000 the UK spends.

The US spends significantly more, at $170,000 but for the purposes of this exercise I suggest we treat it as an outlier. Just as Poland, Spain and Turkey should be treated at the other end of the spectrum.

Our peers are France, Germany and Italy. We fair fairly well in that division.

But, and this is where opinion matters, I think we should be emulating the Netherlands lead and aspiring to a similar budget.

Raising our $70,436 expenditure to a Netherlands equivalent expenditure of $112,000 would raise the capital budget from $4,684,000,000 to $7,448,000,000. That 60% increase in the capital budget, or $2,764,000,000, would only represent a 10% increase in the total defence budget raising it to $29,287,000,000. That would also be a rise from 1.39% of GDP to 1.7%. Not 2% but getting closer.



Summary to date - keep the size of the force the same and make it more effective by spending the same amount per soldier as the Netherlands on the tools they need to conduct an effective defence.

Raise the Capital Budget by 60% adding $2,764,000,000 annually.

This will still leave us short of the NATO 2% target but 1.7% is better than 1.4%. Half Way there.

More to Follow.

Sometimes I wish your posts were videos lol

Good post!

 

[Remius]

Anand says Canada on track to hit defence spending targets but asks, ‘is that enough?’ - National | Globalnews.ca

Defence Minister Anita Anand said on Friday that Canada is "still on track" to hit spending targets, and billed the current moment as a "crucial" one for Canada and allies.

globalnews.ca

I get the impression that Anand is testing the waters or setting the scene on public opinion with some of her media interviews about increasing defence commitments.

 

[tomydoom]

Same table reorganized

Country	Def Exped	GDP (billions)	Per capita	Pers #	Eqpt %	Pers %	Infstr %	Other %
	(millions)	/ % def exp	GDP / def exp
United States	811,140​	20,601 / 3.52	62,100 / 2,186	1351.5​	29.35​	37.47​	1.58​	31.59​
United Kingdom	72,765​	3,014 / 2.29	44,700 / 1,023	156.2​	24.26​	32.69​	1.42​	41.64​
Germany	64,785​	3,521 / 1.53	42,200 / 644	189.1​	18.55​	41.75​	3.69​	36.06​
France	58,729​	2,534 / 2.01	37,400 / 751	208​	27.8​	42.53​	3.02​	26.65​
Italy	29,763​	1,821 / 1.41	30,500 / 428	174.2​	28.9​	60.54​	1.67​	8.89​
Canada	26,523​	1,697 / 1.39	44,100 / 632	71.1​	17.66​	47.5​	3.32​	31.52​
Spain	14,875​	1,250 / 1.02	26,200 / 267	123.9​	22.75​	60.12​	0.73​	16.41​
Netherlands	14,378​	828 / 1.45	47,100 / 685	40.8​	26.2​	47.26​	3.26​	23.28​
Poland	13,369​	575 / 2.10	15,000 / 314	121.2​	26.1​	47.92​	4.97​	21.01​
Turkey	13,057​	1,073 / 1.57	12,700 / 199	445.4​	29.05​	52.47​	1.95​	16.53​

“The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars / But in ourselves," - an appropriate thought as we approach the Ides of March.

I am a big fan of, and major proponent of, increasing our Defence Expenditure to 2% of GDP. I think it would be lovely if we achieved 3.52% of GDP like the US. I would even take the 0.7% of GDP that we are supposed to set aside for foreign aid make it available for humanitarian operations conducted by the Department of National Defence.

But I also agree with those that argue that Cabinet, Treasury Board, Public Services and Procurement Canada, DND and the Canadian Armed Forces wouldn't have a clue how to spend that. Not just on what to spend but the mechanisms necessary to get the money where it needs to be in a timely fashion.

The logistics of money?

The first problem we face is defining the amount of money sent to people, fellow Canadians, that are being hired to wield the tools of defence, and how much is being spent on the tools themselves.

Country	Active military	Reserve military	Paramilitary	Total	% of Popn	% of Popn
					(total)	(active)
Turkey	355,200​	378,700​	156,800​	890,700​	1.08​	0.43​
United States	1,395,350​	843,450​	0​	2,238,800​	0.67​	0.42​
France	203,250​	41,050​	100,500​	344,800​	0.51​	0.3​
Poland	114,050​	0​	75,400​	189,450​	0.5​	0.3​
Italy	161,550​	17,900​	176,350​	355,800​	0.57​	0.26​
Spain	122,850​	14,900​	75,800​	213,550​	0.45​	0.26​
United Kingdom	153,200​	75,450​	0​	228,650​	0.35​	0.23​
Germany	183,400​	30,050​	0​	213,450​	0.27​	0.23​
Netherlands	33,600​	6,000​	6,500​	46,100​	0.27​	0.19​
Canada	66,500​	34,400​	4,500​	105,400​	0.28​	0.18​

Before we look at how much we pay ourselves to defend ourselves we should probably take a look at how many of us we hire to do the fighting for us.

We employ 0.18% of our total population of 38,000,000 to defend us. To fight for us.
We hire 66,500 of us to do the fighting for the other 37,933,500 of us.
66,500 of us to operate the tools necessary to keep threats away from us.

	Personnel
Country	Active military	% of Budget	Expenditure	Expenditure
				per active mbr
		%	(millions)	USD
Turkey	355,200​	52.47	6,851	19,288
United States	1,395,350​	37.47	303,934	217,819
France	203,250​	42.53	24,977	122,890
Poland	114,050​	47.92	6,406	56,172
Italy	161,550​	60.54	18,019	111,535
Spain	122,850​	60.12	8,943	72,795
United Kingdom	153,200​	32.69	23,787	155,267
Germany	183,400​	41.7	27,015	147,303
Netherlands	33,600​	47.26	6,795	202,233
Canada	66,500​	47.5	12,598	189,450

Canada is not stingy when it comes to covering its personnel. It looks pretty good compared the $19,288 per year that Turkey spends on each service person. It compares very favourably to Britain, France, Germany and Italy. The only countries that spend more on their people than Canada are the Netherlands and the US.

We spend a lot on our people.

We don't spend a lot on the tools they need.

Country	Active military	Equipment
		% of Budget	Expenditure	Expenditure
				per active mbr
			(millions)	USD
United States	1,395,350	29.35	$ 238,070	$ 170,616
United Kingdom	153,200	24.26	$ 17,653	$ 115,227
Netherlands	33,600	26.20	$ 3,767	$ 112,114
France	203,250	27.80	$ 16,327	$ 80,328
Canada	66,500	17.66	$ 4,684	$ 70,436
Germany	183,400	18.55	$ 12,018	$ 65,527
Italy	161,550	28.90	$ 8,602	$ 53,244
Poland	114,050	26.10	$ 3,489	$ 30,595
Spain	122,850	22.75	$ 3,384	$ 27,546
Turkey	355,200	29.05	$ 3,793	$ 10,679

Poland, Spain and Turkey have special economic circumstances that put them in a different category to Canada.

Canada is a G7 country. An position it shares with France, Germany and Italy, as well as the UK and the US.
We can afford to do better. We should do better.

The Netherlands, a strong EU member and not notably a warmonger, is in the same league as the US and the UK spending $112,000 annually to supply the necessary tools for its defence. This compares to the $115,000 the UK spends.

The US spends significantly more, at $170,000 but for the purposes of this exercise I suggest we treat it as an outlier. Just as Poland, Spain and Turkey should be treated at the other end of the spectrum.

Our peers are France, Germany and Italy. We fair fairly well in that division.

But, and this is where opinion matters, I think we should be emulating the Netherlands lead and aspiring to a similar budget.

Raising our $70,436 expenditure to a Netherlands equivalent expenditure of $112,000 would raise the capital budget from $4,684,000,000 to $7,448,000,000. That 60% increase in the capital budget, or $2,764,000,000, would only represent a 10% increase in the total defence budget raising it to $29,287,000,000. That would also be a rise from 1.39% of GDP to 1.7%. Not 2% but getting closer.



Summary to date - keep the size of the force the same and make it more effective by spending the same amount per soldier as the Netherlands on the tools they need to conduct an effective defence.

Raise the Capital Budget by 60% adding $2,764,000,000 annually.

This will still leave us short of the NATO 2% target but 1.7% is better than 1.4%. Half Way there.

More to Follow.

I am struck by the fact that Italy, which spends less than Canada , has carrier air groups and an amphib capability. Admittedly Italian shipyards are among the most modern in the world, but still..

 

[daftandbarmy]

I am struck by the fact that Italy, which spends less than Canada , has carrier air groups and an amphib capability. Admittedly Italian shipyards are among the most modern in the world, but still..

Different priorities

WE.org - WE Charity | We're in this together

www.we.org

 

[Remius]

Different priorities

WE.org - WE Charity | We're in this together

www.we.org

What is Italian pay like?

 

[Remius]

Quick check has Italian average military pay at 51k and ours at 67k.

 

[tomydoom]

What is Italian pay like?

Less then Canada, I would assume, based on the Charts. But If I am reading the charts correctly, they also spend a good deal less on equipment per service member.

 

[GK .Dundas]

One has.to understand that Italy's military have to operate on a daily basis in the real world. The Canadian Forces have to operate in Ottawa's.world....where ever that may be.
Although I've begun to wonder if the current crisis has actually started to sink in. I mean the the Russians have actually used the "N" word and the other two bio and chemical.
Furthermore both Sweden and Finland are actually publicly open to joining.NATO. Think about the previous sentence.

 

[daftandbarmy]

What is Italian pay like?

Conscripts don't get paid much.

Hmmmm .....

 

[tomydoom]

One has.to understand that Italy's military have to operate on a daily basis in the real world. The Canadian Forces have to operate in Ottawa's.world....where ever that may be.

Prioritising a Quebec based source for organic fair trade peace mittens and water box thingies, I'm sure.

 

[FSTO]

The Minister did the rounds of the Sunday Talk shows. Was very vague when asked about the relevance of SSE as it retains tot the current international security climate. I'm hoping that this means that there is going to be a refreshment of this policy in the near future, but only after a Foreign Policy document is produced. DND/CAF is shooting blind if we don't know what our International policy arcs of fire are.

 

[Remius]

The Minister did the rounds of the Sunday Talk shows. Was very vague when asked about the relevance of SSE as it retains tot the current international security climate. I'm hoping that this means that there is going to be a refreshment of this policy in the near future, but only after a Foreign Policy document is produced. DND/CAF is shooting blind if we don't know what our International policy arcs of fire are.

I’d be fine with a stronger NORAD and focus on the Arctic. That would cover a lot of bases. Biggest threats to the Arctic is Russia and China.

So that would be a good start.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Conscripts don't get paid much.

Hmmmm .....

Italy abolished conscription in 2000 and didn't have a draft after 2003. It's been a volunteer force since before we rolled into Kandahar in broken Iltis'.

Italians, unlike most Canadians, remember how unruly the neighbours can get.

 

[SupersonicMax]

I am struck by the fact that Italy, which spends less than Canada , has carrier air groups and an amphib capability. Admittedly Italian shipyards are among the most modern in the world, but still..

Do they include their SAR capability in those numbers?

 

[Remius]

Do they include their SAR capability in those numbers?

And carabinieri?

 

[Quirky]

I’d be fine with a stronger NORAD and focus on the Arctic. That would cover a lot of bases. Biggest threats to the Arctic is Russia and China.

So that would be a good start.

-Disband the Army, or severely reduce it, and teach citizens how to handle/fire rifles incase of invasion. Do we really need a deployable fulll-time Army? Keep SOF?
-Rebrand the Navy to a Coast Guard. Get more ships.
-Focus on NORAD defense and increase Transport support for humanitarian aid (need to justify being in NATO). Dissolve CAF SAR and contract it out to private companies.

Off-topic: Holy hell does Singapore have a solid Air Force, what's their deal?

 

[Remius]

-Disband the Army, or severely reduce it, and teach citizens how to handle/fire rifles incase of invasion. Do we really need a deployable fulll-time Army? Keep SOF?
-Rebrand the Navy to a Coast Guard. Get more ships.
-Focus on NORAD defense and increase Transport support for humanitarian aid (need to justify being in NATO). Dissolve CAF SAR and contract it out to private companies.

Off-topic: Holy hell does Singapore have a solid Air Force, what's their deal?

I’m in agreement with the army. I’d reduce the full time and increase the reserves or even double it. Make it mostly combat arms and some CSS. But that would require massive changes to reserve TOS.

Keep SOF. keep specialists and CSS. And a full time cadre of trainers/instructors for the combat arms element

Increase the airforce and Navy significantly.

 

[dimsum]

Do they include their SAR capability in those numbers?

Probably not. From Wiki, the Italian Coast Guard does SAR, backed up by Navy and Air Force assets.

 

[RangerRay]

I am struck by the fact that Italy, which spends less than Canada , has carrier air groups and an amphib capability. Admittedly Italian shipyards are among the most modern in the world, but still..

How much of our costs are energy and transportation costs of being in a large, cold, sparsely populated country? I know it’s often a factor in other organizations in this country. If we weren’t paying so much in heating buildings and moving people and stuff around, would we have a more skookum military?

 

[GK .Dundas]

Funny thing, usually when someone mentions somebody else's navy having a carrier or for that matter any piece of gucci kit . There is almost spinal reflex reply of "We don't need that , besides some one else will provide (fill in blank here) ".
I guess those pigeons have come home to roost. Our cupboard isn't just bare there are actually 'fracking' pieces of the cupboard missing.
I suspect that the usual suspects are currently in a state of shock a large heaping dose of reality tends to do that. All though I do wonder how long that will last?