I'll believe it when I see it.
Justin Trudeau hints at boosting Canada’s military spending
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daftandbarmy
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'China' is Singapore's deal...
Despite being a tiny nation they also have hundreds of tanks, but you won't hear much about that
RangerRay
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I think those pigeons came home to roost a few years ago but were in denial then, and still in denial now.
MilEME09
Army.ca Veteran
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The world once again has forced us to care about defense. It us upto us to listen and get our house in order. While I'm optimistic about our new minister, I am not confident in our over bloated bureaucracy not to screw this up.
daftandbarmy
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Looks like it was 2005, but there are some things about compulsory service that don't seem to have gone away. It's kind of confusing actually....
Italy ends compulsory military service
Bringing Italy into line with most of the rest of Europe, the Italian parliament Thursday approved plans to make the armed services all-volunteer from January 1, ending universal military conscription.
However, anyone wanting to join the police, the para-military carabinieri, the customs service or the fire service will still have first to serve a year in the army for a monthly salary of up to 980 euros (1,178 dollars).
Those born in 1985 will be the last to be called up, unless they have obtained student or other exemptions.
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Getting invaded, then occupied during WWII tends to change your defence outlook.
That, and China.
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Bureaucracy remains a secondary issue. Primary issue remains the will (desire) of Government to do the absolute least required for defence as possible, and then just a teenie bit less, just for good measure. Upthread the reality surfaced for a bit…Canada only has to engage in extraterritorial action as it feels it wants to, and for continental defence, despite at times vitriolic “We’re not Americans!” we are more than happy to live under Uncle Sam’s protective umbrella…yet still complain about even that..
Camada has no right to be at all preachy and virtuous to anyone…but that of course, won’t stop us from being so…most irritatingly in a vapid, breathily preachy voice…
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They also have more sniper rifles than the CF too'China' is Singapore's deal...
Despite being a tiny nation they also have hundreds of tanks, but you won't hear much about that
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In addition to Personnel (48%) and Equipment (18%) the NATO budget covers Infrastructure and Others.
Infrastructure is a minor component (1-5%). Canada is strictly middle of the road. No real reason to change anything.
Which brings us to the Other Category
Other expenditure includes operations and maintenance expenditure, other R&D expenditure and expenditure not allocated among above-mentioned categories.
And this one is all over the shop.
It is not useful to compare nations to nations. Each nation has its own needs and standards. The one thing I would say is that this is one area where more is generally better.
Ultimately this category is about troops using equipment. It is about training the troops and maintaining the equipment and ensuring that when called out on operations, which also comes out of this budget, that their tools are in the best condition possible.
It is about spending money for fuel, for tires, for tracks, for bearings, for batteries, for bullets, for worn out barrels and return springs, for broken night vision goggles, radios, GPS systems, missiles, UAVs, targets.... engines, fuel hoses, hydraulic lines... worn out boots and pants.....
The more money available here the better the tools in the tool kit are, the more proficient the troops are and the better their morale. And troops with high morale are less likely to get into trouble.
So,
GDP of 1697 BUSD
Defence Expenditure of 26.5 BUSD or 1.39% of GDP
Defence Personnel Budget of 12.7 BUSD or 48% of the Budget or 0.66% of GDP
Defence Infrastructure Budget of 0.9 BUSD or 3% of the Budget or 0.05% of GDP
Stand fast on those lines and we have committed to put supply a body of 66,500 Canadians to Defend the Country .
0.18% of the population and 0.71% of GDP
Defence Equipment Budget (Current) of 4.7 BUSD or 18% of the Budget or 0.27% of GDP
Raising our Equipment Budget to the same proportion as the Netherlands on a CAF member basis
Defence Equipment Budget (Netherlands Standard) of 7.4 BUSD or 0.44% of GDP.
The change to the Netherlands Standard would require an additional annual investment of 2.7 BUSD or 0.17% of GDP.
This would be a 58% increase in the Equipment Budget and a 10% increase in the Total Defence Budget to 29.2 BUSD or 1.72% of GDP
So how much to spend on The Other?
Currently we spend 31.52% of the Defence Budget of 26.5 BUSD or 8.4 BUSD or $126,000 for each of the 66,500 Active Members
The NATO Target is 2% of GDP or 2% of GDP 32.6 BUSD
If we hold the Personnel Budget at 12.7 BUSD (0.66% of GDP)
And the Infrastructure Budget at 0.9 BUSD (0.05% of GDP)
And raise the Equipment Budget 60% to 7.4 BUSD (0.44% of GDP)
For a total of 21 BUSD (1.24% of GDP)
And if we decide to match the NATO target of 2% of GDP or 32.6 BUSD
Then that creates a Budget for the Other of 32.6 BUSD - 21 BUSD or 11.6 BUSD (0.7% of GDP)
That budget represents Canadians sitting by radios waiting for distress calls and flying yellow aircraft to the rescue.
It represents Canadians monitoring satellites and any imagery they can get a hold of to look for changes - new things - people, things, the environmen, so that our government knows more of what is happening in our country, all 10,000,000 square kilometers.
It also represents the same surveillance of seas around our coasts, both our own seas and the High, or international seas.
It represents Canadians monitoring Drones (when we get them) flying missions to investigate things that are discovered by the surveillance systems.
It represents Canadians flying CP140s (which need replacing) flying patrols over all those millions of square kilometers and responding to targets needing investigation. On the land, on the water and under the water.
It represents Canadians flying CF18s (which also need replacing) flying intercept missions to investigate things of interest in the air, on the ground and on the seas and determining it they are threats.
It represents Canadians bobbing around at sea for weeks in AOPVs, MCDVs, CPF Frigates and Submarines extending Canada's government on to the seas. Floating islands that let others know that Canada rules and protects here. Islands from which helicopters fly, from which rescue comes, that provide temporary homes for the RCMP, the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, and Environment officers and all the other law enforcement officers that enforce Canada's laws.
And it also represents the ability to support the enforcement of Canada's laws and the decisions of Canada's Parliament and Government with lethal, destructive fore if that jurisdiction is challenged. It represents bullets, grenades, shells, bombs, torpedoes and missiles that are designed to remove threats when the threats won't listen to reason.
Finally, it represents a tiny force of Canadians, not more than 15,000, of whom some 5000 will come within speaking distance of other people whose intentions will range from friendly to hostile and are probably unknown. A force designed Advance to Contact, discover the capabilities and intentions of the potential threat and then be able to accompany it or destroy it. More bullets, grenades, shells, bombs and missiles.
66,500 Canadians out of 38,000,000 or 0.18% of all Canadians or 1 in 555 defending us and our territory.
15,000 Canadians out of 38,000,000 or 0.04% of all Canadians or 1 in 2500 required to go out make contact with people who may be lost fishermen, refugees, lone killers or foreign armies.
5,000 Canadians out of 38,000,000 or 0.01% of all Canadians or 1 in 7,600 required to go out and actually get close enough to speak to those unknown people. And take the chance of dying if the unknown doesn't want to talk to the Canadian and the Canadian doesn't shoot fast enough.
And in their spare time, when they aren't patrolling Canada and training to act in the defence of Canada we Canadians lend our fellow Canadians to other countries to help them manage their problems. And they are always welcome. Because they are good at their jobs.
These troops are supported by other Canadians willing to assist and supply armed assistance on a part time basis. These are the Reserves, and the Rangers. The Rangers are officially described as paramilitaries by NATO
38,000,000 Canadians
66,500 Canadians actively engaged in the defence of Canada
15,000 Canadians Advance to Contact
5,000 Canadians in hailing distace
4,500 Canadian Rangers observing and reporting on the 70% of Canada where there are no roads
34,400 Canadian Reservists available to assist if they are needed and called for
68,000 Young Canadian Cadets curious about helping to defend Canada
607,951 Registered Canadian Hockey Players in Canada in the 2019/2020 season.
Our GDP is stated as being 1690 BUSD
Divide that by 38,000,000 and you get US$44,473 per Canadian.
1.39% of that is US$618 per year.
Or US$1.69 per day
Or $2.16 Canadian per Canadian per day.
Raising the Equipment Budget 60% would raise that $2.16 to $2.62
Or $0.46 per Canadian per day.
Less than $0.50 extra per Canadian per day from each of 38,000,000 to give the 66,500 the tools they need to defend the 38,000,000 and the 607,951 Registered Canadian Ice Hockey Players
Raising the Other Budget, the Surveillance, Patrols, Maintenance, Research and Development and Exercise Budget to bring the Total Defence Expenditure up to the NATO Target of 20%, would raise the $2.62 per Canadian per day to $3.11 per Canadian per day
Or an additional $0.49 per Canadian per day.
In total, to raise the Canadian National Defence Budget, money spent with Canadians defending Canadians, from its current 1.39% of GDP to the NATO target of 2% would cost each of those 38,000,000 Canadians an additional $0.95 per day.
An additional 95 cents per day to equip the 66500 Canadians defending us with new Satellites, new Radar, new Drones, new Patrol Aircraft, new Interceptors, Air Defence systems and new Communications and Electronic Warfare systems, new Transport Aircraft and Ships, new Helicopters.
And new Armour to protect those 15,000 that Advance to Contact and the 5,000 that get close enough to talk to the unknown.
Also to supply ammunition to eliminate any discovered threats.
And also to cover the expenditure of tires, diesel, beans, bandages and bullets necessary to keep the force well trained.
For 95 cents a day more.
For $3.11
Infrastructure is a minor component (1-5%). Canada is strictly middle of the road. No real reason to change anything.
| Infrastructure | |
| Poland | 4.97 |
| Turkey | 1.95 |
| Spain | 0.73 |
| Germany | 3.69 |
| Canada | 3.32 |
| Netherlands | 3.26 |
| France | 3.02 |
| Italy | 1.67 |
| United States | 1.58 |
| United Kingdom | 1.42 |
Which brings us to the Other Category
Other expenditure includes operations and maintenance expenditure, other R&D expenditure and expenditure not allocated among above-mentioned categories.
And this one is all over the shop.
| Other | |
| United Kingdom | 41.64 |
| Germany | 36.06 |
| United States | 31.59 |
| Canada | 31.52 |
| France | 26.65 |
| Netherlands | 23.28 |
| Poland | 21.01 |
| Spain | 16.41 |
| Italy | 8.89 |
It is not useful to compare nations to nations. Each nation has its own needs and standards. The one thing I would say is that this is one area where more is generally better.
Ultimately this category is about troops using equipment. It is about training the troops and maintaining the equipment and ensuring that when called out on operations, which also comes out of this budget, that their tools are in the best condition possible.
It is about spending money for fuel, for tires, for tracks, for bearings, for batteries, for bullets, for worn out barrels and return springs, for broken night vision goggles, radios, GPS systems, missiles, UAVs, targets.... engines, fuel hoses, hydraulic lines... worn out boots and pants.....
The more money available here the better the tools in the tool kit are, the more proficient the troops are and the better their morale. And troops with high morale are less likely to get into trouble.
So,
GDP of 1697 BUSD
Defence Expenditure of 26.5 BUSD or 1.39% of GDP
Defence Personnel Budget of 12.7 BUSD or 48% of the Budget or 0.66% of GDP
Defence Infrastructure Budget of 0.9 BUSD or 3% of the Budget or 0.05% of GDP
Stand fast on those lines and we have committed to put supply a body of 66,500 Canadians to Defend the Country .
0.18% of the population and 0.71% of GDP
Defence Equipment Budget (Current) of 4.7 BUSD or 18% of the Budget or 0.27% of GDP
Raising our Equipment Budget to the same proportion as the Netherlands on a CAF member basis
Defence Equipment Budget (Netherlands Standard) of 7.4 BUSD or 0.44% of GDP.
The change to the Netherlands Standard would require an additional annual investment of 2.7 BUSD or 0.17% of GDP.
This would be a 58% increase in the Equipment Budget and a 10% increase in the Total Defence Budget to 29.2 BUSD or 1.72% of GDP
So how much to spend on The Other?
Currently we spend 31.52% of the Defence Budget of 26.5 BUSD or 8.4 BUSD or $126,000 for each of the 66,500 Active Members
The NATO Target is 2% of GDP or 2% of GDP 32.6 BUSD
If we hold the Personnel Budget at 12.7 BUSD (0.66% of GDP)
And the Infrastructure Budget at 0.9 BUSD (0.05% of GDP)
And raise the Equipment Budget 60% to 7.4 BUSD (0.44% of GDP)
For a total of 21 BUSD (1.24% of GDP)
And if we decide to match the NATO target of 2% of GDP or 32.6 BUSD
Then that creates a Budget for the Other of 32.6 BUSD - 21 BUSD or 11.6 BUSD (0.7% of GDP)
That budget represents Canadians sitting by radios waiting for distress calls and flying yellow aircraft to the rescue.
It represents Canadians monitoring satellites and any imagery they can get a hold of to look for changes - new things - people, things, the environmen, so that our government knows more of what is happening in our country, all 10,000,000 square kilometers.
It also represents the same surveillance of seas around our coasts, both our own seas and the High, or international seas.
It represents Canadians monitoring Drones (when we get them) flying missions to investigate things that are discovered by the surveillance systems.
It represents Canadians flying CP140s (which need replacing) flying patrols over all those millions of square kilometers and responding to targets needing investigation. On the land, on the water and under the water.
It represents Canadians flying CF18s (which also need replacing) flying intercept missions to investigate things of interest in the air, on the ground and on the seas and determining it they are threats.
It represents Canadians bobbing around at sea for weeks in AOPVs, MCDVs, CPF Frigates and Submarines extending Canada's government on to the seas. Floating islands that let others know that Canada rules and protects here. Islands from which helicopters fly, from which rescue comes, that provide temporary homes for the RCMP, the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, and Environment officers and all the other law enforcement officers that enforce Canada's laws.
And it also represents the ability to support the enforcement of Canada's laws and the decisions of Canada's Parliament and Government with lethal, destructive fore if that jurisdiction is challenged. It represents bullets, grenades, shells, bombs, torpedoes and missiles that are designed to remove threats when the threats won't listen to reason.
Finally, it represents a tiny force of Canadians, not more than 15,000, of whom some 5000 will come within speaking distance of other people whose intentions will range from friendly to hostile and are probably unknown. A force designed Advance to Contact, discover the capabilities and intentions of the potential threat and then be able to accompany it or destroy it. More bullets, grenades, shells, bombs and missiles.
66,500 Canadians out of 38,000,000 or 0.18% of all Canadians or 1 in 555 defending us and our territory.
15,000 Canadians out of 38,000,000 or 0.04% of all Canadians or 1 in 2500 required to go out make contact with people who may be lost fishermen, refugees, lone killers or foreign armies.
5,000 Canadians out of 38,000,000 or 0.01% of all Canadians or 1 in 7,600 required to go out and actually get close enough to speak to those unknown people. And take the chance of dying if the unknown doesn't want to talk to the Canadian and the Canadian doesn't shoot fast enough.
And in their spare time, when they aren't patrolling Canada and training to act in the defence of Canada we Canadians lend our fellow Canadians to other countries to help them manage their problems. And they are always welcome. Because they are good at their jobs.
These troops are supported by other Canadians willing to assist and supply armed assistance on a part time basis. These are the Reserves, and the Rangers. The Rangers are officially described as paramilitaries by NATO
38,000,000 Canadians
66,500 Canadians actively engaged in the defence of Canada
15,000 Canadians Advance to Contact
5,000 Canadians in hailing distace
4,500 Canadian Rangers observing and reporting on the 70% of Canada where there are no roads
34,400 Canadian Reservists available to assist if they are needed and called for
68,000 Young Canadian Cadets curious about helping to defend Canada
607,951 Registered Canadian Hockey Players in Canada in the 2019/2020 season.
Our GDP is stated as being 1690 BUSD
Divide that by 38,000,000 and you get US$44,473 per Canadian.
1.39% of that is US$618 per year.
Or US$1.69 per day
Or $2.16 Canadian per Canadian per day.
Raising the Equipment Budget 60% would raise that $2.16 to $2.62
Or $0.46 per Canadian per day.
Less than $0.50 extra per Canadian per day from each of 38,000,000 to give the 66,500 the tools they need to defend the 38,000,000 and the 607,951 Registered Canadian Ice Hockey Players
Raising the Other Budget, the Surveillance, Patrols, Maintenance, Research and Development and Exercise Budget to bring the Total Defence Expenditure up to the NATO Target of 20%, would raise the $2.62 per Canadian per day to $3.11 per Canadian per day
Or an additional $0.49 per Canadian per day.
In total, to raise the Canadian National Defence Budget, money spent with Canadians defending Canadians, from its current 1.39% of GDP to the NATO target of 2% would cost each of those 38,000,000 Canadians an additional $0.95 per day.
An additional 95 cents per day to equip the 66500 Canadians defending us with new Satellites, new Radar, new Drones, new Patrol Aircraft, new Interceptors, Air Defence systems and new Communications and Electronic Warfare systems, new Transport Aircraft and Ships, new Helicopters.
And new Armour to protect those 15,000 that Advance to Contact and the 5,000 that get close enough to talk to the unknown.
Also to supply ammunition to eliminate any discovered threats.
And also to cover the expenditure of tires, diesel, beans, bandages and bullets necessary to keep the force well trained.
For 95 cents a day more.
For $3.11
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The next step is figuring out how to spend the money the CAF is given so that they don't have to turn it back in at the end of the year because they couldn't spend it fast enough.
Or figure out how to get that money carried over to the next year and added to next year's budget.
Just because the money went away it doesn't mean the problem went away. The problem is still there. Just with less money.
Or figure out how to get that money carried over to the next year and added to next year's budget.
Just because the money went away it doesn't mean the problem went away. The problem is still there. Just with less money.
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The link to the data on which the above was based.
www.nato.int
Defence Expenditure of NATO Countries (2014-2021)
NATO collects defence expenditure data from Allies and publishes it on a regular basis. Each Ally's Ministry of Defence reports current and estimated future defence expenditure according to an agreed definition of defence expenditure. The amounts represent payments by a national government...
daftandbarmy
Army.ca Dinosaur
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They also have more sniper rifles than the CF too
And bigger training areas
Australia-Singapore Military Training Initiative
The Australia-Singapore Military Training Initiative (ASMTI) is an opportunity for Australia to build Defence capability and enhance its bilateral relationship with Singapore, while providing enduring economic benefits to Central and North Queensland.
Home : ASMTI : Department of Defence
Department of Defence. Defending Australia and its national interests.
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When I was their for their sniper rifle program the ranges in Singapore where tightly controlled (and a colossal cluster for the non SOF units to get weapons to the range). I always marveled at their equipment and ingenuity but wondered how they could train in large formations. They seem to have solved that part now.And bigger training areas
Australia-Singapore Military Training Initiative
The Australia-Singapore Military Training Initiative (ASMTI) is an opportunity for Australia to build Defence capability and enhance its bilateral relationship with Singapore, while providing enduring economic benefits to Central and North Queensland.
Home : ASMTI : Department of Defence
Department of Defence. Defending Australia and its national interests.defence.gov.au
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AFAIK all Singaporean pilots are initially trained in Australia at RAAF Base Pearce next to Perth. There were Singaporean navigator students in Winnipeg at one point.And bigger training areas
Australia-Singapore Military Training Initiative
The Australia-Singapore Military Training Initiative (ASMTI) is an opportunity for Australia to build Defence capability and enhance its bilateral relationship with Singapore, while providing enduring economic benefits to Central and North Queensland.
Home : ASMTI : Department of Defence
Department of Defence. Defending Australia and its national interests.
Then there's that whole chunk of their Air Force in the US.
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Italy also has a well developed military industry system, that generates a lot of revenue from exports (Oto-Melara and Fincantieri immediately come to mind) and Italy is not averse to subsidizing when it can. It also steers clear of ITAR rules when it can.
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How about a clear statement of Domestic Policy first. After all it is National Defence we're talking about. Our expeditionary capability, in my view is only part of that National plan.
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And the Carabinieri? They would probably show up in the Paramilitary category I guess.
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I get the impulse but in all fairness our army is not much bigger than some countries SOF in any event.
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'China' is Singapore's deal...
Despite being a tiny nation they also have hundreds of tanks, but you won't hear much about that
Not much track wear running around Singapore.
Hundreds of relocatable pill boxes.
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Kind of like the incentive plan there. I wonder if they have something similar for health and environmental services on the non-violent side of things?
Halifax Tar
Army.ca Fixture
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Full agreement I know people hate it but we really don't need a deployable Army.
A solid small SOF organization and some territorials is all we need for land forces.
Almost all of our defense spending should be towards sea and air power.
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