XXX Corps was too slow

[army]

XXX Corps was too slow





Posted by Michael A. Dorosh from Canada on April 08, 1999 at 14:55:37:


In Reply to: Re: So how did he kill too many of "our guys"? posted by A Corporal on April 08, 1999 at 03:59:37:



American commanders were a bit disappointed in the British habit of laagering for the night, rather than rushing to meet up with their comrades in embattled Arnhem.

I think you underestimate the importance of that "litle bit of intelligence", but your point is valid. Had the planners taken into account the presence of 9th and 10th Panzer Divisions, the operation would have been cancelled or modified - as it should have been. Of course, there is the old saying about hindsight...

As for the Falaise Gap - chalk that one up to Canadian inexperience, not Patton or Montgomery. The inexperienced Canadians and British fighting against German armour and anti-tank guns, despite overwhelming aerial superiority, were still trying to learn how to fight in the big leagues with raw troops and over difficult terrain. Simonds came up with some innovations ie the APC and carpet bombing also helped, but what could Montgomery have done differently at Falaise? With so many units crammed into such a small bridgehead, there was no room for maneuver.

 

[army]

Re: XXX Corps was too slow and for Ted





Posted by Jules Deschenes from Canada on April 08, 1999 at 18:32:13:


In Reply to: XXX Corps was too slow posted by Michael A. Dorosh on April 08, 1999 at 14:55:37:



I know someone who was there and they couldn‘t figure out why the **** they weren‘t chasing the Germans. This individual was a seasoned soldier. It was only when he read all the accounts AFTER the war that he realized what the problem had been. He was a CSM by the way. Now for Ted I just read Berton‘s account on Vimy. My opinion on Currie still stands. He was a crook! As I was reading I felt that maybe in spite of this he was a great tactian until I read the account of March 1917 when because he didn‘t step in 687 Canadians were gassed and died. You may disagree with me but I am entitled to my opinion. As i have stated on more than one occasion I don‘t suffer fools gladly and I don‘t take prisoners. The reference to fools is not directed towards any of you. I have too much respect for your info and narratives.

 

[army]

Re: XXX Corps was too slow and for Ted





Posted by Brad Sallows from Burnaby BC Canada on April 09, 1999 at 16:34:18:


In Reply to: Re: XXX Corps was too slow and for Ted posted by Jules Deschenes on April 08, 1999 at 18:32:13:



1 One tactical mistake isn‘t sufficient to malign Currie‘s military expertise, nor is one
weakness of character sufficient to malign a reputation.
2 Sending armour unsupported, or by night, up the highway through the polder from Nijmegen to
Arnhem would‘ve been suicide, unless you think miring tanks in mushy ground at the side of the
road provides a nice stable firing platform to shoot in the infantry.
3 By the time of the Falaise battle, the Canadians were experienced. So were the Germans, and if
the Germans up to that point had been difficult opponents, imagine how motivated they were to keep
that gap open. People can whine all they like about the "slow" progress from the beaches north of
Caen to Falaise, but the simple fact remains that while the British and Canadians may not have
advanced very quickly against the cream of the German army, the cream of the German army didn‘t
make much progress the other way.

 

[army]

Re: XXX Corps was too slow and for Ted





Posted by Jules Deschenes from Canada on April 09, 1999 at 19:28:32:


In Reply to: Re: XXX Corps was too slow and for Ted posted by Brad Sallows on April 09, 1999 at 16:34:18:



It was NOT a tactical mistake. He knew it wouldn‘t work and he never spoke up. That‘s lack of intestinal fortitude to protect your people. By the time they had stopped farting around with the phosgene and chlorine gases over 1600 of our soldiers had died and countless wounded. I have no respect for either Monty or Mountbatten they were both egotists. I found it rather apropos that Mountbatten went down with his "ship". As for the Gap it seems to me that the troops were seasoned as you said. But does one stop because the other side is seasoned too. The CSM stated tht they waited for someone to decide to move. Instead they spent days contemplating their navels. Like I said I‘m entitled to my opinion, right or wrong.

 

[army]

Re: XXX Corps was too slow and for Ted





Posted by Jules Deschenes from Canada on April 09, 1999 at 19:29:28:


In Reply to: Re: XXX Corps was too slow and for Ted posted by Brad Sallows on April 09, 1999 at 16:34:18:



It was NOT a tactical mistake. He knew it wouldn‘t work and he never spoke up. That‘s lack of intestinal fortitude to protect your people. By the time they had stopped farting around with the phosgene and chlorine gases over 1600 of our soldiers had died and countless wounded. I have no respect for either Monty or Mountbatten they were both egotists. I found it rather apropos that Mountbatten went down with his "ship". As for the Gap it seems to me that the troops were seasoned as you said. But does one stop because the other side is seasoned too. The CSM stated tht they waited for someone to decide to move. Instead they spent days contemplating their navels. Like I said I‘m entitled to my opinion, right or wrong.

 

[army]

Re: XXX Corps was too slow and for Ted





Posted by Michael A. Dorosh from Canada on April 10, 1999 at 00:32:19:


In Reply to: Re: XXX Corps was too slow and for Ted posted by Brad Sallows on April 09, 1999 at 16:34:18:




Good Points. To respond in order

a re Currie - well said. Did Dancocks write a book about Currie? I seem to remember that he did - wonder what Dancocks had to say about him. Maybe Jules can give it a looksee and let us know.

b Fighting armour at night is obviously suicide, and you‘re right about road conditions. However, stopping at tea time instead of pushing on until dusk probably isn‘t showing much of a sense of ‘urgency‘.

c By the time of the Falaise battle, 2 Cdn Div had only been on the Continent six weeks. They may have been blooded, but I don‘t think they were ‘experienced‘. And bear in mind many ‘experienced‘ troops from 3 Div had already been killed or invalided out. Look at Buron in July, where the HLI lost 262 men in a single day.

As for the ‘cream‘ of the German Army, by July 1944 Germany‘s best were by and large buried in Russia. Hitlerjugend Division was just as inexperienced as the Canadians, despite a cadre of LAH. And the number of second line divisions far outnumbered units like LAH or Panzer Lehr.

I didn‘t mean to whine about the Canadian Army‘s lack of progress at Falaise - actually, I meant to defend it by saying that they were inexperienced, and in fact I did point out some of the tactical innovations that they came up with the APC I believe I mentioned, wasn‘t another one "artificial moonlight" - it was used disastrously to silhouette the North Novies in one attack, but was it not used to advantage in other situations?

As for the Germans not making progress going the other way - rubbish. How do you think the Falaise Pocket was created in the first place? By a counterattack on Mortain. Had they not gained any ground at all, they would not have created any pocket. Granted, strategically it was stupid and led to the destruction of a large part of the Seventh Army, but since we are discussing tactical prowess, something must be said for that.

In the final analysis - Normandy was a meatgrinder. It is amazing that all the armies involved managed to suffer such horrible losses yet maintain their fighting capability and spirit, enough to prolong the war into the spring of 1945.

 

[army]

Re: XXX Corps was too slow and for Ted





Posted by Jules Deschenes from Canada on April 10, 1999 at 19:47:33:


In Reply to: Re: XXX Corps was too slow and for Ted posted by Michael A. Dorosh on April 10, 1999 at 00:32:19:



Thank you Michael but do I look like a flamin‘ librarian? This same CSM said that tongue in cheek that when they encountered the Hitlerjugend they didn‘t know if they should shoot them or spank them.

 

[army]

Re: XXX Corps was too slow and for Ted





Posted by Brad Sallows from Burnaby BC Canada on April 12, 1999 at 13:04:06:


In Reply to: Re: XXX Corps was too slow and for Ted posted by Michael A. Dorosh on April 10, 1999 at 00:32:19:



After 6 weeks in Normandy, any formation was probably as experienced as it could
hope to be. The commanders and staffs all had a pretty good grip on their jobs,
and owing to turnover due to the high casualty rates on the left flank of the
bridgehead it‘s hard to believe the troops‘ experience level could‘ve increased
much more.
When I refer to "cream", I‘m not trying to simply infer something about troop quality,
although the SS divisions had remarkable cohesion compared to other formations, even
other German formations. One must consider also the large number of panzer divisions
squeezed into the ground facing the British/Canadians and the fact those divisions had
significantly better equipment and logistical priority than their infantry divisions,
particularly the SS formations.
The Mortain counteroffensive was against the Americans, not the British/Canadians,
and it stalled out pretty quickly. One must note that the best formations the Germans
could possibly hope to muster were concentrated south of Caen and they failed to ever
achieve anything decisive while they were fresh.