WW2

[Michael Dorosh]

OK but the whole planing and organizing of d-day was done by Montgomery. all he needed was the bodies to do it. and after the invasion was complete whole got all the credit and who still gets all the credit?

thats right the Americans

Unless people start actually reading some actual history texts/quoting sources or at least make an attempt to look intelligent, I think this one may need to be locked up, too.  I have no idea which comic book you pulled this information out of, but if you can cite a credible source I for one would love to hear it.

 

[Infanteer]

Unless people start actually reading some actual history texts/quoting sources or at least make an attempt to look intelligent, I think this one may need to be locked up, too.   I have no idea which comic book you pulled this information out of, but if you can cite a credible source I for one would love to hear it.

Thanks Michael, I was going to say that as well.

Please use "Real History" to back your claims up instead of just saying anything that comes to your mind.

Hutch, Docherty - look into the actual planning for "Overlord" and the British resistance to it (due to its interference in their Mediterranean strategy).   As well, look at the high level strategic relationships and the nature of the Anglo-American alliance.   Finally, try reading actual battle studies of the respective beaches of Normandy instead of just going off of Saving Private Ryan for analysis of tactical approaches.   You kids have some homework to do.

 

[Torlyn]

Wow.    I've wanted to jump in here a few times, but it's hard to type when your jaw is on the floor.  So, Michael, Infanteer, you mean war ISN'T like private ryan, Band of Brothers, Full Metal Jacket, JAG, (am I missing any here?)...  Sigh.  I was all confused for a while there...  :

As to the actual question, there IS no answer.  I mean, there are a million what if's that could have changed the outcome of WWII.  What if the treaty of versailles was more lenient?  What if the great depression had never happened?  What if England and France had mobilized sooner and attacked Germany in Poland?  (Er, I know they weren't ready to, M & I )  What if Hilter's drawings had actually got him in to art school?  IT's a great opinion question, but it seems to be leaning towards a "we didn't need the Americans then and we don't now" sort of bend, which has been rehashed too many times on this board already.

Could we have won without them?  Doesn't really matter now, as we did win with them. 

T

 

[Infanteer]

As to the actual question, there IS no answer.   I mean, there are a million what if's that could have changed the outcome of WWII.

Yup.

That is why I like to stay away from "What If's", they really are pointless.  I think that the only point that can be made here is that with a cursory examination of the historical record the US contribution to the Defeat of Fascism was just as important as that of the British Commonwealth and/or the Soviet Union.

Infanteer Out.

 

[pbi]

they did offer a large number in the fight against the German army. although i do believe and it is in a book i have seen that the British (Montgomery) and the Canadians were the brains of the war and the Americans just had the man power to get the job done.  unfortunately patton and Eisenhower took all the credit and glory. 

for an example of how the British and Canadians were better and smarter is operation overlord A.K.A D-Day. the British and Canadian troops used armored vehicles and tanks to storm the beaches and have less casualties. however on the American side they just used man power and were nearly pushed back into the water by the germans. i believe in the book it said that the Americans had only advanced a measly 100 yard 2 days after landing on the beach. And on saving private Ryan it made it look so easy ha

:  ???  :-X.  Go back and read a few history books, please!

Cheers.

 

[Jonny Boy]

Thanks Michael, I was going to say that as well.

Please use "Real History" to back your claims up instead of just saying anything that comes to your mind.

Hutch, Docherty - look into the actual planning for "Overlord" and the British resistance to it (due to its interference in their Mediterranean strategy).   As well, look at the high level strategic relationships and the nature of the Anglo-American alliance.   Finally, try reading actual battle studies of the respective beaches of Normandy instead of just going off of Saving Private Ryan for analysis of tactical approaches.   You kids have some homework to do.

i will get the book that all the information is in. it is a 800 page novle all about mongumary. i dont just make up history. and i am NOT A KID you do some reserch and find the defanition of a "kid". if it has anything to do with being a son or daughter than guess what so are you

it is true that mongumary had the whole idea of d-day before the americans joined the war. it may of been changed a bit when the americans joined though.

i was told by the person (which is a ww2 vet) that is reading the book that the americans were only like 100 yards or meters off the beach after 2 days of fighting.

so when i find out what book it is i will put it on.

i dont think that we need to lock this. i think we are all old enough and mature enough to keep it appropriate.

 

[Gunner]

Hutch, if you want to be treated like an adult, I suggest your first action should be working on your grammer, punctuation and spelling.  Who or what is mongumary?  Your post make no sense at all and I can only guess what the point of it is. 

 

[Michael OLeary]

i was told by the person (which is a ww2 vet) that is reading the book that the americans were only like 100 yards or meters off the beach after 2 days of fighting.

You may wish to check your facts before posting. Some assault beaches met heavy resistance, others saw good advances made even on D-Day itself.


Utah Beach - http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/wwii/dday/utah.aspx

By the end of the day, the 4th Division had established a 4-mile deep penetration inland and were within reach of Ste-Mere-Eglise, where the 82nd had fought throughout the night.

Omaha Beach - http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/wwii/dday/omaha.aspx

The landings at Omaha Beach had incurred significant casualties and in fact, the enemy defenses were stronger than expected. Very little progress had been made in the push to the interior and this caused significant backups on the beach. Of the 2,400 tons that were planned to arrive on the beach on D-Day, only 100 tons were delivered. Operations on the 7th and 8th of June would be spent deepening the bridgehead.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

i will get the book that all the information is in. it is a 800 page novle all about mongumary.

Oh...a NOVEL!  Well why didn't you say so?  Of course it is correct.

it is true that mongumary had the whole idea of d-day before the americans joined the war.

WHO??????

The Americans joined the war in 1941, and in 1942 planned for an invasion of Europe - the British actually vetoed the plans (do a google search on ROUNDUP and SLEDGEHAMMER) because the bulk of the force would be British.  Churchill insisted on the Mediterranean route to Germany - Italy and the Balkans.  The Americans fought vehemently for a NW Europe landing and wanted to do so in 1942, then 1943.  The British kept refusing, insisting the Mediterranean route would be much easier.  Poltically, both sides eventually agreed that the NW Europe route would be necessary.

it may of been changed a bit when the americans joined though.

WRONG

i was told by the person (which is a ww2 vet) that is reading the book that the americans were only like 100 yards or meters off the beach after 2 days of fighting.

WRONG - Utah and Omaha beaches were both cleared on 6 June, ie D-Day itself and troops were well inland by early evening.  

so when i find out what book it is i will put it on.

Can't wait.

i dont think that we need to lock this. i think we are all old enough and mature enough to keep it appropriate.

I have a hard time believing anyone posting drivel as inane as yousr could actually be genuinely that ignorant - so unless you can prove that you're not simply trolling for a response, I'd suggest this thread gets locked up.

 

[Jonny Boy]

i usually do a spell check and i think you know who i meant.
the spell checker was acting up and not working right. for example if i miss spelt today the spell check would correct it and put todtoday. so that is why my last post had bad spelling.
and since when is spelling a factor on how much of an adult you are? it doesn't. there are plenty of very smart intelligent and good people that may be bad at spelling.

also if people want to get there point across or correct me is it really necessary to do it in a demeaning and sarcastic way?  so if they want to be treated like an adult than maybe they should act a little more mature. also if it would not kill them act like staff here and offer guidance instead of criticism

you know just a thought

You may wish to check your facts before posting. Some assault beaches met heavy resistance, others saw good advances made even on D-Day itself.

OK but as far as i know (not saying it is true) Juno beach had the heaviest resistance. the reason the Canadians could get through faster than the Americans was because they used tanks to storm the beach. and please if it is not true than don't say anything degrading just offer guidance to somewere that will help me learn different.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Omaha Beach was the costliest of the beaches, not Juno.   Canada suffered about 900 casualties on D-Day, the Americans on Omaha several times more; the terrain was unsuited to a landing there, the American DD tanks did not deploy correctly, and the pre-invasion bombardment missed their targets (this also happened on Juno IIRC).

Resistance was tough on ALL the beaches; opposed landings are always difficult.   Comparing Omaha to Juno is silly; both were well defended by the Germans, but terrain and circumstance made the day's experiences on each beach very much different.

There are hundreds of books out there on D-Day and the Normandy landings - suggest you go down to your local library and look over the shelves.   Corenelius Ryan's THE LONGEST DAY is a good start for a readable account, but there is little Canadian content.   Ted Barris wrote a book on D-Day but it only covers the Canadians.   There are many others if you are truly interested.   C.P. Stacey covers the day well in a general overview in THE VICTORY CAMPAIGN and also THE CANADIAN ARMY 1939-1945.   These are the official Canadian histories.

Also try Max Hasting's OVERLORD.

Best suggestion is to read the books first, THEN proclaim that you know what you're talking about.   Veteran's memories 60 years later are as fallible as my memory trying to remember what I had for lunch last Tuesday.

Good luck.

 

[dutchie]

Canada made a significant contribution, as did Britain, to WW2. You don't need to minimize the huge impact the US effort had on the War to legitimize the sacrifice and effort by Canada - it stands on it's own, thank-you very much.

This thread COULD have morphed into an intelligent discussion on the pivotal points of WW2, the contributions made, or not made, by various nations, etc. Instead, it has degenerated into a 'we did it all, you tool all the credit, blah, blah, blah' due to ridiculous claims of 'facts' of 'history' made by a man-child and others (I am not a kid, I am a Cadet!).   :

I suggest this be locked.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

I am not an historion Hutch, but the problem here is you are not asking for guidance, you are trying to sound knowledgeable  by giving what you think you know.
These guys you are trying to compete with ARE historions and, why not take the next 24 hours and start googling the subjects mentioned by these people, and then come back with a report.
If you are really that interested, it should make for a fun day.
Thanks
Bruce

EDIT :a few people posted but I'll put this up anyway.

 

[Jonny Boy]

Omaha Beach was the costliest of the beaches, not Juno.   Canada suffered about 900 casualties on D-Day, the Americans on Omaha several times more; the terrain was unsuited to a landing there, the American DD tanks did not deploy correctly, and the pre-invasion bombardment missed their targets (this also happened on Juno IIRC).

Resistance was tough on ALL the beaches; opposed landings are always difficult.   Comparing Omaha to Juno is silly; both were well defended by the Germans, but terrain and circumstance made the day's experiences on each beach very much different.

There are hundreds of books out there on D-Day and the Normandy landings - suggest you go down to your local library and look over the shelves.   Corenelius Ryan's THE LONGEST DAY is a good start for a readable account, but there is little Canadian content.   Ted Barris wrote a book on D-Day but it only covers the Canadians.   There are many others if you are truly interested.   C.P. Stacey covers the day well in a general overview in THE VICTORY CAMPAIGN and also THE CANADIAN ARMY 1939-1945.   These are the official Canadian histories.

Also try Max Hasting's OVERLORD.

Best suggestion is to read the books first, THEN proclaim that you know what you're talking about.   Veteran's memories 60 years later are as fallible as my memory trying to remember what I had for lunch last Tuesday.

Good luck.

thank you that is the kind of guidance that should be offerd thank you.

the reason i was acting like i know what i am tlaking about it becouse i really honestly thought i did know. ever since i was a little kid my dad and grandpa have been reading books and reserching the ist and 2nd world war. i was just saying what they have always told me. whitch you would concider true if you grew up being taught it all.

i will still get the book i was talking about though. i is a documentry novle i would belive it to be true

(if the spelling is off agian it is becouse the spell check is acting up again)

 

[Infanteer]

OK but as far as i know (not saying it is true) Juno beach had the heaviest resistance. the reason the Canadians could get through faster than the Americans was because they used tanks to storm the beach. and please if it is not true than don't say anything degrading just offer guidance to somewere that will help me learn different.

Tanks don't "storm beaches", read up on amphibious assaults, you'll find that they all tend to be heavy on Infantry and Engineers.

You've already been given your guidence - go read the basic history on the subject (searching this thread will give you a good start); you keep pressing the issue here, hence the reason the replies are starting to get testy....

 

[Jonny Boy]

Could we have won without them?  Doesn't really matter now, as we did win with them. 

T

i missed this quote and i really like it. it is soooooooo true

oh and just cause i promised and if anyone is still interested the book i was talking about is called " Master of the Battlefield"  Monty's war years 1942- 1944.

it was written by Nigel Hamilton.

i haven't read it my self but one of the reviews on it says "many good writers have had a shot at explaining Monty. No one has come as close to the man as Mr Hamilton.

sounds like a good book though, if i ever have the time to sit and read it i would love to. * looks at book and realizes that there are over 800 pages  .

 

[Danjanou]

i missed this quote and i really like it. it is soooooooo true

oh and just cause i promised and if anyone is still interested the book i was talking about is called " Master of the Battlefield"   Monty's war years 1942- 1944.

it was written by Nigel Hamilton.

i haven't read it my self but one of the reviews on it says "many good writers have had a shot at explaining Monty. No one has come as close to the man as Mr Hamilton.

sounds like a good book though, if i ever have the time to sit and read it i would love to. * looks at book and realizes that there are over 800 pages   .

So let me get this straight here Cadet Master Warrant Officer. First you come on stating all your theories are from this "Great Book" and now you say you haven't even read it!

Why did I bother to go to University and get a degree in Military History. I could have just come on the Net and pulled stuff out of whatever ororificeas convenient and declared myself an expert on the subject.

BTW is "the spell checker was acting up" the modern eqequivalentf the "dog ate my homework."

800 pages of Military history is light fun reading to the guys you're arguing against here young troop. I seriously suggest you take the generous advice offered and go and do some real research. You're a bit out of your league here.

 

[Jonny Boy]

First you come on stating all your theories are from this "Great Book" and now you say you haven't even read it!

i already told everyone that the person that is reading the book told me about it way before that post. i think you should read it a bit better.

So let me get this straight here Cadet Master Warrant Officer.

i would like it you did not pull me being a cadet into any of this. it does not mean a thing when it comes too military history thank you

Why did I bother to go to University and get a degree in Military History.

i don't know, why did you?

BTW is "the spell checker was acting up" the modern eqequivalentf the "dog ate my homework."

OK so what is your excuse for the horrible spelling?   i mean what is eqequivalentf and ororificeas?

800 pages of Military history is light fun reading to the guys you're arguing against here young troop.

ok i know that. i admittedto being mistaken. i was going from what i believedto be a reliable source had told me.   i really do believet is light fun reading for the people here. for me on the other hand am not the best reader. i would really enjoy reading it but i don'think i would be able to read it and my other books in school. so when i am done with school i will attempt to tackle it. is that ok with you?

I seriously suggest you take the generous advice offered and go and do some real research. You're a bit out of your league here.

oh i have taken the advice that is why i did not make any more posts saying i am right and i know these facts. i can admit to being wrong and being out of my leagueere. the question is can you admit to being slightly immaturend continuing the argument?  

just stop it and carry on with an intellagent conversation. forget what i previously posted.

thank you

 

[big bad john]

Hutch;
we all make mistakes, we all must learn from them.  So the thing to do is not to get defensive, but to take the advice of those that are trying to help you.  By being defensive you are not improving your profile on the site.  just a friendly word to the wise.

 

[Jonny Boy]

ya i know i admitted to mine and i am learning from them.  i didn't mean the post in a defencive way but more of a way to clarify that it is all over.

bye