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Winter warefare/survival ideas

This saved my feet once out hunting. 

Teach the importance of using cat tails out of swamps for insulation for boots and in your shirt.  You pull it apart and it looks like  down feather.  Stuff it anywear, its a great insulator.  As well its a great fire starter if you have zero kindling as it is extremely flamable.  Great to use with flint, or as Petamocto stated to start a fire after you get some embers going off of your fire saw etc.  Goes up really fast with a big flame so have your wood your going to burn at the ready.
 
So to be clear, your side of this discussion is that you see no value in training to start a fire from scratch?

To take your point to the next logical level, why not be prepared for everything?  Why not be in the forest with a full camper with a stove, generator, and television?
 
Flawed Design said:
I'm looking for ideas for winter warfare/survival training to be run at section level.

Does anyone have any ideas?  Maybe something that they did in the past which they found really keen or something they have heard of which sounded cool?


just giving ideas to this initial question. 

As far as adding to your " wood on wood" comment Petamocto I think that the idea of learing how to rub to sticks together to create fire is important to know.  The cat tails was just an extra to that comment that you could use with the process once the flame has been created.

:cdn: 
 
Petamocto said:
So to be clear, your side of this discussion is that you see no value in training to start a fire from scratch?

recceguy said:
By all means, teach the bow and other methods, but you'll really have to be exceptionally hard up and lost to have to use them. Like the Boy Scouts say "Be prepared".

And right there is your problem, here and in the other threads that you drag off topic or try to dominate You're so fixated on your own narrow, personal view of the encapsulated little world that you occupy that you just can't wait to open your mouth without fully reading or understanding what someone else is trying to say.

You can add me to the quickly, and exponentially, expanding list of people, here, that no longer wish to have an sort of dialogue with you.

Later.
 
recceguy said:
Unless the plane I was on was the Silver Dart, I still wouldn't be making a fire with a bow. If you are totally unprepared and unimaginative you deserve to while away your hours recreating 'Quest for Fire'

Sorry, but did you forget writing that part?

Yes you did mention that it could still be taught, but you also implied that it was a waste of time because obviously a person would have to be retarded to crash without their tac vest and ruck sack with them.
 
Petamocto said:
Sorry, but did you forget writing that part?

Yes you did mention that it could still be taught, but you also implied that it was a waste of time because obviously a person would have to be retarded to crash without their tac vest and ruck sack with them.

Not to mention all the fuel, batteries, survival gear, etc, that you'd have available in a plane crash. But that doesn't fit your argument, does it?

Oh wait. I'll bet you're one of those yogic flyers aren't you?

Quit bothering me.
 
Beat me to it Recce, as I am pretty sure all aircraft are required to have a survival kit in them.  It may be different with personal aircraft.  Most of us don't fly around in those.  It is a great skill to try to learn, but relying on it to save your life is asinine.  Even the experts have a hard time creating fire from scratch.  Using the focal point from glass is more promising than rubbing two sticks together.  If you are with a group, it is almost guaranteed at least one will be a smoker as well, which means source of flame, either matches or lighter.

Another great source for Winter training, if you can find them, are the old cadet manuals.  The ones with the red covers from the 70's to late 80's.  Those that were around back in that era will most likely remember them.  I think I still have a couple laying around back in BC.  I will try to remember to get their reference numbers for you when I get back to Canada, they might still be in an archived system somewhere accessible to others
 
Even on the Advanced SERE course, we didnt have to start a fire from scratch........if we got away from the enemy far enough to start a fire.

That course is about as "life couldnt get any worse" as it gets.
 
recceguy said:
So it was done on private land with the owner's permission ;)

2000 acres of Private property in Northern Quebec cottage country. The land owner even lent us his Mint condition BV206 - troops even got to drive it..

Few years ago he "attacked a defensive position" of ours with an old Sherman tank.  good times :)
 
Oh, com'on guys, stop picking on the RCR guy.  :camo:

I think it should be taught if only to show how hard it is and its use should be saved for a last resort - or if only to keep busy.
Some kids are quick to jump on some ideas - like rubbing sticks - instead of looking for easier alternatives if available.
The thing is, you can't predict what you will have with you when you get lost somewhere (by whatever means), so you should be prepared to use whatever you have at your disposal - and that usually comes with experience or from expert sources (some books, videos, etc.)

One of the most important things I like to stress to the troops is the importance of staying dry. Take them on a fighting patrol - setting up an ambush works great. Hump for 5km or so, all loaded up - watch for the ones that don't strip down at the first stop. Once you arrive at the objective and start to wait - watch the shivering start. Call the OPFOR before it gets too bad and spring the ambush; get them to the tents that the OPFOR LOSVs were pulling and set up camp; warm up and talk about it.

cheers,
Frank
 
PanaEng said:
One of the most important things I like to stress to the troops is the importance of staying dry. Take them on a fighting patrol - setting up an ambush works great. Hump for 5km or so, all loaded up - watch for the ones that don't strip down at the first stop. Once you arrive at the objective and start to wait - watch the shivering start. Call the OPFOR before it gets too bad and spring the ambush; get them to the tents that the OPFOR LOSVs were pulling and set up camp; warm up and talk about it.

cheers,
Frank

They shouldnt have to strip down too much. You should be ready to go from the start. Teach that if you are warm before you leave, you are overdressed. You should be cold with what you are wearing before stepping off. We ran into that this past weekend on ex. Guys wearing fleece pants, and bib pants for a 4km snowshoe, with tobbogans, and it was like -3. They were sweatin alot by the first stop we made, which was purley for them to strip down, a usless stop.

These are all basic winter skills, that need to be taught, but also need to be reinforced.
 
That's the thing, some times you can say something until you a blue in the face but it won't sink in until they experience it themselves. I bet you those guys/girls will not be wearing all that stuff next time.

Now, one of the most rewarding activities when doing the winter indoc is having a nice, warm, penthouse like shelter but, for me, nothing beats catching lunch/dinner. Wether it is ice fishing or snaring something, it is pretty reassuring that you can actually expand your diet if you find yourself in a survival situation.

cheers,
Frank
 
PanaEng said:
That's the thing, some times you can say something until you a blue in the face but it won't sink in until they experience it themselves. I bet you those guys/girls will not be wearing all that stuff next time.

You can say that again...

So here's something I'll throw out for you guys:  What have you found to be the most effective layering system?

For wintertime in Ontario, I've been able to get away with polypro, softie, and a parka shell.  Before stepping off I'll take the softie off and stuff it in my ruck.  If it's really cold out, I'll add a fleece.

The bottom half, for me anyways, is a little trickier.  Ideally, I'll march in combat pants, but given the strong possibility of ending up in the prone this usually isn't the best option.  Windpants/polypro combo is more versatile, but I can't help but think there's a lighter option that I just haven't figured out yet.

I haven't been issued the new rain gear yet.  How's this stuff in the winter?
 
Even on the Advanced SERE course, we didnt have to start a fire from scratch........if we got away from the enemy far enough to start a fire.

That course is about as "life couldnt get any worse" as it gets.

Is that course for pilots only? I've not heard much about this course before.

Thanks.
 
I ran AWT in Norway several times.

It was pretty standard and covered most of the things in the CF syllabus, except we did everything on skis. We also were pretty 'stripped down' kit wise and travelled with light 4 man tents, or tarps that we used for 4-8 man shelters. With a decent sleeping bag and a 2 man stove per pair, we did fine down to -30C or so - as long as we weren't shy!

This meant that we could cover long distances at high speed, which was good for practising the ol' 'Motti' tactics (below), which was our intended war role as light infantry should the commies roll across the border. We had to rely on the skills learned during AWT to stay warm though. This was perfect for the 'survival' night at the end, as we would issue orders for a raid at the start of the training period, with all the AWT fitting into BP for the operation, and strike like 'shivering starving lightning' on the op. This made it all far more realistic, of course, and also provided an opportunity to teach BP in a winter warfare environment.

So, I'd suggest that you issue orders for a 'Motti inspired' raid at the start of the training, deliver the AWT stuff within the context of BP for a raid, ditch the mega-heavy tents and snowshoes on the op itself in favour of hootchies/ improvised shelters and skis (but use them at the 'patrol base' during the training to get people familiar with them), and just generally treat it all like another offensive patrolling ex. I've found that when you exclusively focus on the survival stuff without placing it in the correct military context, it all degenerates into a boy scout - type winter camping jamboree (no offense to you scouts out there, of course) with no real tactical value. The troops respond in kind, unfortunately.

I think that our CTS clothing & equipment is perfect for this type of activity, by the way. The stuff we used in Norway was literally cotton and leather and we made it work, but it was effing uncomfortable!


Motti Tactics:

"Makeshift weaponry was not the only development to augment the Finnish soldier's lack of resources and manpower. The army also developed new tactics with time. One of the most popular was the motti tactics. In Finnish, a motti is a pile of wood with stakes holding it in place, which will eventually be cut up for firewood. The motti tactics was to approach and pin a Soviet column that adequate information has been gathered about. Then with a focus on concentration of firepower, the column would be attacked and divided into many isolated parts. The key was not to make the isolated part too large to put up a struggle which it can use to break out of the motti, or defend until Red Army reinforcements arrived. Then the mottis could be dealt with, beginning at the weakest, and cold, hunger and lack of supplies could weaken the stronger ones. This tactic was used to supplement the lack of ammunition, artillery and manpower the Finns had." http://ww2db.com/battle_spec.php?battle_id=30

http://www.winterwar.com/Tactics/mottis.htm



 
daftandbarmy said:
I've found that when you exclusively focus on the survival stuff without placing it in the correct military context, it all degenerates into a boy scout - type winter camping jamboree (no offense to you scouts out there, of course) with no real tactical value. The troops respond in kind, unfortunately.

I'm not sure it's a bad approach to the basic winter warfare course, though. A general introduction to taking care of yourself in the cold, followed up later on by unit-level winter indoc and other winter courses.  My own basic winter warfare course saw such scout-style fare as fire-starting contests.
 
Wonderbread said:
You can say that again...

So here's something I'll throw out for you guys:  What have you found to be the most effective layering system?

For wintertime in Ontario, I've been able to get away with polypro, softie, and a parka shell.  Before stepping off I'll take the softie off and stuff it in my ruck.  If it's really cold out, I'll add a fleece.

The bottom half, for me anyways, is a little trickier.  Ideally, I'll march in combat pants, but given the strong possibility of ending up in the prone this usually isn't the best option.  Windpants/polypro combo is more versatile, but I can't help but think there's a lighter option that I just haven't figured out yet.

I haven't been issued the new rain gear yet.  How's this stuff in the winter?

For the top. I was using a tshirt, and parka shell. With a touque and shemeg(sp?). For bottoms it was polypro bottoms, and bib pants. Alot of people diss on the bib pants, yes they are heavier then the gortex pants(wind pants), but they can be ventilated. I spent most of the weekend with the side zips open, but if I got cold, they got done up. That worked well for me.

My Pl WO has the new rain gear, he was in a tshirt, softee and rain jacket. It was perfect for that weather. The snow was too wet for anything but rain gear.
 
Nothing to do with dress, as anyone quickly finds a comfort zone. All tripwire coils kept are perfect for winter warfare snare training. Nothing beats real game captured utilizing leftovers from your defensive build kit. And a length of lashing wire can certainly garner larger game, if hungry enough.
 
Here's an idea: don't try to copy Les Stroud if you haven't got a clue what you're doing (or a full backup team in support just in case).

http://www.nationalpost.com/multimedia/video/index.html?category=National+Post&video=3aPjUKtnThZWmaZLIY1d5YugciuLKpBi

 
recceguy said:
Flint and steel is easy to teach and learn. A kit takes up no extra room (an Altoid tin) and the weight is negligable. Even a novice can have a fire going in under ten seconds.

One of those magnesium keychain sticks is even easier.

9V battery and steel wool works very well esp in windy environments where magnesium is hard to scratch off and confine.  Just be sure to keep your battery and steel wool in seperate pockets, you're buds will find it funny but you will find it very uncomfortable.  ;)
 
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