Why we pay Reservists what we do (Including Reg v.s. Cl B v.s. Cl C pay, and Double-Dippin')

[armyvern]

Funny, long term CL B. I was told I was going to Afghanistan on a TAV last Jan, touched down in March (it took that long for the dorks in Ottawa to get my contract straighened out, and my pay was still screwed well into April).

I pull the same hours (actually much longer, because I work in the same town as my home unit). I am subject to the exact same short term short notice taskings as my peers. I am expected to remain green throughout. I could find myself in Wainright next week, as easily as I can find myself at my desk... How is my job any different?

If you are on contract due to deployment and are still working on top of that "contracted" duty with your Home Unit (even if they are in the same town) ... you are doing that at your own choosing. They are not your employer, nor are they your "owning Unit" while you serve on the "contract" and you are under no obligation to report to those Unit lines to work.

 

[PO2FinClk]

Thus, IMHO, justifying the pay difference.

You are correct, however it is not just a matter of opnion but rather of fact. There are several documents out there outlining this precisely, one of which I mentioned in my earlier post. It all boils down to Unlimited Liability, rather then Selective.

 

[armyvern]

Ok, but you know and I know regF pers who arrange, for family or other reasons not to be posted or not to be depoyed. 

Yes, that does happen --- due to extenuating circumstances such as critical health issues or terminal illness' etc. A child that requires treatment at sick kids etc for a life threatening illness ... will not find his parents posted to Wainright or deployed. This falls under the "Compassionate Posting" category, and, in these circumstances the RegF members career progression CEASES. No courses, no postings, no promotions. THAT is NOT applicable to the ResF member who can say "no" and STILL enjoy courses, taskings AND career progression and promotions.

However, if I don't want to be posted to Wainwright because my "spouse has a good job in Halifax" ... that's just too f'n bad for me and my family --- and I either PROCEED on the posting ... or GET OUT. Or, I can also choose to proceed on that posting IR -- leaving my family in Halifax while I serve 3 or 4 years in Wainright. A ResF member will NOT find themselves forced into any of this. They have the choice to just say "no" without any career implications or upheaval to their families.

You, as a reservists can say "no" anyway ... and STILL have a job.

Again, Apples/Oranges ...

 

[PO2FinClk]

They are now expected to have the same medical and fitness standards

Regardless of Reg or Res, they are members of the CF where Medical and Fitness is the cornerstone of anyone wearing the uniform.

People can come up with endless arguments to attempt to justify their arguments, this has been the case for decades and will likely continue. Until the Res F is subject to the same impositions as the Reg F where their personal desires are but suggestions to someone who effects control over your career (and in aspects of your personal life), the variance will remain.

Beating a long dead and buried horse unfortunately, other threads have run their course on the very same subject.

 

[armyvern]

At which point in time, I assume that YOU will pay my mortgage? If there was a danger of that, there is no way I would have taken my currant contract. I could guess, I would not be alone.

I sincerely hope that you did not base your 25 year mortgage upon a 3 year temp employment contract. How will you pay that mortgage in 3 years when that contract is done --- and not re-signed and no others are available for you?? I'm curious. Thousands of Canadians find themselves in this situation (with no permanent work) ... what do they do, certainly no one is paying their mortgages for them?

 

[Teeps74]

If you are on contract due to deployment and are still working on top of that "contracted" duty with your Home Unit (even if they are in the same town) ... you are doing that at your own choosing. They are not your employer, nor are they your "owning Unit" while you serve on the "contract" and you are under no obligation to report to those Unit lines to work.

So I walk away from my home unit. My unit then decides that they can not afford to lose any more people, and thus no longer approves TD taskings or longer term employment out of the unit (yes, units can do that, and in fact are expected to manage their own manpower readiness). Further, I lose my career advancement.

It is more then just a choice. Some of us stay reservists out of loyalty to our units. I took this job because it is local. And the idea that it is a "choice" does not ring true to me, simply because it may be a legal choice, does not mean it is one I can ethically make. Ask a Royal to rebadge to Vandoo or Pat sometime... A percentage I am sure would. I would guess that would be a very small percentage, expecially as one moves up in rank.

Further, my home unit IS my owning unit. My employing unit does not administer me in any way (which made for all sorts of pay difficulties when I deployed to Afghanistan last year, both on the front end and on the back... That is a different subject altogeather). I was sent on the TAV (not that I would have turned it down, I suppose I had the option), and my home unit was burdened with all the paperwork associated.

 

[Teeps74]

I sincerely hope that you did not base your 25 year mortgage upon a 3 year temp employment contract. How will you pay that mortgage in 3 years when that contract is done --- and not re-signed and no others are available for you?? I'm curious. Thousands of Canadians find themselves in this situation (with no permanent work) ... what do they do, certainly no one is paying their mortgages for them?

It is one thing to offer me a three year contract. It is another thing entirely to end my contract early because you decide you want someone else. If there is a breach of contract on my end, sure, I can see that, and breaching a contract IS terms for immediate termination.

But that is not what is being discussed in this case. "Gee, let's send WO Bloggins to replace that toon over there... WO Bloggins needs a break." That is not grounds to take money out of my pocket.

 

[armyvern]

So I walk away from my home unit. My unit then decides that they can not afford to lose any more people, and thus no longer approves TD taskings or longer term employment out of the unit (yes, units can do that, and in fact are expected to manage their own manpower readiness). Further, I lose my career advancement.

It is more then just a choice. Some of us stay reservists out of loyalty to our units. I took this job because it is local. And the idea that it is a "choice" does not ring true to me, simply because it may be a legal choice, does not mean it is one I can ethically make. Ask a Royal to rebadge to Vandoo or Pat sometime... A percentage I am sure would. I would guess that would be a very small percentage, expecially as one moves up in rank.

Further, my home unit IS my owning unit. My employing unit does not administer me in any way (which made for all sorts of pay difficulties when I deployed to Afghanistan last year, both on the front end and on the back... That is a different subject altogeather). I was sent on the TAV (not that I would have turned it down, I suppose I had the option), and my home unit was burdened with all the paperwork associated.

Ahhh see, there's the kicker. YOU were on a TAV and thus were TDd. YOU were not on a C Class contract (thus still falling under your Home Unit). NOW, with those facts out -- your original statement becomes a tad bit more acurate. You were a TAV ... you were not deployed overseas as a member of the tour for a pro-longed period and you were not subject to the same vigors and extent of work up training that those pers who formed the actual deployed battle group were.

Please --- don't come back with a "TAV" pers are equal to "deployed pers" comment; many on here who have been deployed will be quick to point out the vast differences between TAV (Military tourism [sometimes essential/sometimes not, but always only for the short time ... even some times -- just long enough to qualify for the medal]) and actual long-term deployed members and their tasks/duties in-theatre.

 

[armyvern]

It is one thing to offer me a three year contract. It is another thing entirely to end my contract early because you decide you want someone else. If there is a breach of contract on my end, sure, I can see that, and breaching a contract IS terms for immediate termination.

But that is not what is being discussed in this case. "Gee, let's send WO Bloggins to replace that toon over there... WO Bloggins needs a break." That is not grounds to take money out of my pocket.

And, I'm sure that were this scenario ever to come to pass, that you would receive some sort of "contract breaking restitution" (or "severance pay" per se) ... but asking them to make your mortgage payments for you is a wee bit much no?? No one else in Canada gets that benefit.

 

[Teeps74]

And, I'm sure that were this scenario ever to come to pass, that you would receive some sort of "contract breaking restitution" (or "severance pay" per se) ... but asking them to make your mortgage payments for you is a wee bit much no?? No one else in Canada gets that benefit.

No one else would not be subjected to such a severe breach of trust.

 

[Spartan]

While I understand the differences in pay between the components, I wonder with these discussions if the policies will change to recognize Cl A days at greater than a quarter when someone considers transferring to the Reg F.  Because as it stands now, it seems like alot of the additional Cl A days that one might pick up are not simply make work projects but aid greatly in running and/or supporting a unit/ex/ even courses - both Reg and Res- effectively.

 

[Haggis]

But that is not what is being discussed in this case. "Gee, let's send WO Bloggins to replace that toon over there... WO Bloggins needs a break." That is not grounds to take money out of my pocket.

If you are in a Class B position which is wholly and totally in support of Res F activities, this is unlikely.  However if you are a Class B position that is a Reg F backfill, keep your résumé up to date at all times.

Life sucks.  Grab a helmet.

 

[Teeps74]

Ahhh see, there's the kicker. YOU were on a TAV and thus were TDd. YOU were not on a C Class contract. NOW, with those facts out -- your original statement becomes a tad bit more acurate. You were a TAV ... you were not deployed overseas as a member of the tour for a pro-longed period and you were not subject to the same vigors and extent of work up training that those pers who formed the actual deployed battle group were.

Please --- don't come back with a "TAV" pers are equal to "deployed pers" comment; many on here who have been deployed will be quick to point out the vast differences between TAV (Military tourism) and actual long-term deployed members and their tasks/duties in-theatre.

My military tourism adventure saw me hoping from FOB to FOB, spent most of my time at JPCC, some at PRT with a very little amount of time in KAF. Not all TAVs are created equal, but that is not the subject at hand. I do maintain my deployment status as green for my job, and would gladly go on any TAV or full tour offered.

And I have done full tours, I do not need the differences pointed out to me.

Further, I did deploy under CL C contract, to do otherwise is illegal. The TAV I was on was cyclical and is now a part of the operational TO&E, the job description is the same now (on full blown CFTPO written roto) as it was on the TAV.

 

[armyvern]

No one else would not be subjected to such a severe breach of trust.

Really?

It happens all the time. Just up the road here at the mill a whole bunch of locals who were permanently employed got laid off ... they received the appropriate severence pay.

Here's a breach of trust for you:

For 20 years I went where & when I was told to. Then, I choose to say "no" to a certain posting. I'm handed my release paperwork <--- awesome job security there I tell you.

After 20 years of Class B contracts, they tell you that you asre going "here", and you say "no" ... you just don't go. You still have a job.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I could find myself in Wainright next week, as easily as I can find myself at my desk... How is my job any different?

There is a substantial difference between Wainwright and some wadi in the sandbox, wouldn't you agree?

 

[armyvern]

My military tourism adventure saw me hoping from FOB to FOB, spent most of my time at JPCC, some at PRT with a very little amount of time in KAF. Not all TAVs are created equal, but that is not the subject at hand. I do maintain my deployment status as green for my job, and would gladly go on any TAV or full tour offered.

And I have done full tours, I do not need the differences pointed out to me.

Further, I did deploy under CL C contract, to do otherwise is illegal. The TAV I was on was cyclical and is now a part of the operational TO&E, the job description is the same now (on full blown CFTPO written roto) as it was on the TAV.

And, you recd 100% of the pay yes while on that Class C?? What's your point?

 

[Teeps74]

If you are in a Class B position which is wholly and totally in support of Res F activities, this is unlikely.  However if you are a Class B position that is a Reg F backfill, keep your résumé up to date at all times.

Life sucks.  Grab a helmet.

Reg F back fill positions are advertised as such. Anyone going into such a job with delusions of long term employment deserves the hard fall they take.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Do the reserves just recieve only 85% less pay if they are not deployed overseas?
If they volunteer to be sent over, do they then recieve the same ammount of pay as a regular force member?

If they are overseas, they are on Class C and get the pay/benefits = to a Regular Force mbr.  In Canada, it depends on what position they are in.  Some are Class C (MCDVs come to mind), some Class B and some Class B (A).

 

[Teeps74]

There is a substantial difference between Wainwright and some wadi in the sandbox, wouldn't you agree?

Have I argued differently?

 

[Teeps74]

And, you recd 100% of the pay yes while on that Class C?? What's your point?

My point is that in some cases there is almost zero difference in expectations between Pres on CL B, CL B/A and Reg F...

Some CL B/A jobs out there SHOULD be CL C jobs with ALL of the expectations of Reg F members placed on them (as the CL C contract is clearly written out).