Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL Withers?

[Jed]

The thing is you cannot change an organization for the outside....for instance the CAF is resistant to other organizations telling it how to do business. Same for VAC and the Legion.

Real substantial change must happen from within.

A key point. Within 4 to 6 years the Legion old guard will be moving on in one way or another. The ranks will be filled by those comrades sitting through the meetings. If the new vets want to change things now is the time to get active. If you have the patience, the RCL will have a very strong voice in a few years.

If too many vets want to just whine away and be generally non effective, nothing will change.

 

[Strike]

What it comes down to is this:  The current government fears nothing except for bad press, which they take great pains to mitigate.  The Legion may well be quietly and diplomatically advocating on behalf of veterans, but the pace at which anything is actually being done can only be described as glacial.  The Legion holds the potential of having a lot of power, but the only way that power will be realized with the current government, is for the power to be wielded in the form of shaming the government into action.  That will not happen with the current management at the Legion, and that is why the Legion is an ineffective advocate for veterans at this time.

It doesn't matter what government is in power, change will always happen at a glacial pace, and to think otherwise is naive and shows a strong misunderstanding of the way a government works.  Heck, the Cons bought a Sea King replacement, the Libs killed it, the Cons are back in power and still no new helo, just as one example.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

A key point. Within 4 to 6 years the Legion old guard will be moving on in one way or another. The ranks will be filled by those comrades sitting through the meetings. If the new vets want to change things now is the time to get active. If you have the patience, the RCL will have a very strong voice in a few years.

If too many vets want to just whine away and be generally non effective, nothing will change.

The old guard has already moved on. The RCL is now populated, mostly, by a bunch of civies that think a Legion beret and executive medals, worn on the right side, somehow gives them a connection to a service they never did. The majority could care less about Veterans. All they really want to know about is how much pork tenderloin is going to be in the Friday meat draw and if anyone hit the big score on the Neveda tickets before they buy theirs.

The only way to affect change is to have a concerted effort. You need to pull together enough Veterans per Branch, to join and outvote the existing civilian committees. Once you've taken over the running of the place, you have to cement your position. Once the previous people no longer have a say and you make the RCL military centric again, they will leave of their own accord and we can start to accomplish something.

 

[Jed]

The old guard has already moved on. The RCL is now populated, mostly, by a bunch of civies that think a Legion beret and executive medals, worn on the right side, somehow gives them a connection to a service they never did. The majority could care less about Veterans. All they really want to know about is how much pork tenderloin is going to be in the Friday meat draw and if anyone hit the big score on the Neveda tickets before they buy theirs.

The only way to affect change is to have a concerted effort. You need to pull together enough Veterans per Branch, to join and outvote the existing civilian committees. Once you've taken over the running of the place, you have to cement your position. Once the previous people no longer have a say and you make the RCL military centric again, they will leave of their own accord and we can start to accomplish something.

That's right, concerted effort. I would rather the civi's in power have an attitude adjustment than leave though. The majority will follow good leadership when given the option.

 

[dapaterson]

All they really want to know about is how much pork tenderloin is going to be in the Friday meat draw and if anyone hit the big score on the Neveda tickets before they buy theirs.

That's unfair.




They also want to know when it's going to be their turn at darts.

 

[blackberet17]

The RCL is a weak entity. As RG has indicated, it is populated by civilians, with a smattering of old guard veterans - the modern day veteran, as VAC would say. The numbers are dwindling, branches are closing, and the more modern military service members, those of the Rwanda, Somalia, Bosnia and Afghanistan time period, are not interested in joining the Legion, for a variety of reasons.

The Government of Canada, under the Conservatives, can clearly see this.

The other advocacy groups are also weak entities. They have few members overall, and do not represent a large cross-section of the current CAF and former CAF population. While "vocal" and "loud", the Government of Canada knows they do not have strong support from the general population. Their methods of making themselves heard come across, generally, as a bunch of whiney vets, with the Honourable Peter Stoffer as their figurehead in the House of Commons.

This is very nearly a carbon copy of the situation shortly after the First World War, back in the mid to late 1920s - numerous different, disparate, and disjointed veterans groups wanting essentially the same thing from their Government - better services and benefits, and respect for their service - but seemingly unable to work together towards this common goal.

From this mess came the RCL.

Will the RCL disappear in a similar fashion? I sincerely hope not. The Legion has built itself into a respected organization in the eyes of the general Canadian population. Last year - yes, most likely in response to the attacks on CAF members in St-Jean-sur-Richelieu and Ottawa, however - the Legion saw unprecedented support for its poppy campaign.

So what's the solution? Well, I'd say cut the whining and whinging, and those who want to effect positive change, come together and work together. In my opinion, the Canadian Veterans Advocacy is not the solution. When you read the comments in this forum about CVA and its various representatives, you can tell there is little support or respect for the CVA, at least amongst the posters here. I could be wrong, but it is a general feeling.

Is the RCL the solution? Beats me. But it at least has the support of the general Canadian population, still has positive links with the Federal Government (unlike other groups on the outskirts, trying to get a voice and be heard), and has some strength behind it.

So, as recceguy suggests, let's get involved, phase out the civilians who while they mean well (we hope), don't represent the CAF population, and can't realistically be taken seriously when they don't have those experiences, and speak with one voice again.

Just my  :2c:

 

[Occam]

It doesn't matter what government is in power, change will always happen at a glacial pace, and to think otherwise is naive and shows a strong misunderstanding of the way a government works.  Heck, the Cons bought a Sea King replacement, the Libs killed it, the Cons are back in power and still no new helo, just as one example.

It may be an example, but it's not a very good one.  The cancellation aside, the CF contributed to some of the delays in the same way that they did for the JSS/Big Honkin Ship projects.  By the time everyone got their essential criteria onto the wish list, they had a 30,000 lb helicopter that needs 6 engines to fly, or a 120,000 ton combination Ro-Ro, battleship, aircraft carrier, replenishment ship and sub hunter.  Of course they had to wipe the slate clean and start over.

This government has shown that they have the ability to make quick legislative changes.  The recent new legislation about terrorism is but one example.  And I would argue that change can and does happen at a quick pace when it suits the government.  I like to joke around the office that we need a state board to keep up to the minute on whether the taps are on or off for spare parts procurement.  I'm given direction quite frequently to stop working on projects of such and such a nature, and to devote my time to projects of another nature.  The changes that need to be made at VAC <the department> shouldn't be that hard to implement.  The problem is that there's no political will behind making them, or initiating large deviations from existing policy.  That's a political problem, not an institutional one.

It bears reminding that a mass infusion of 100,000 veterans into the RCL would still not result in veterans having a majority amongst the legion membership.  I acknowledge that at the branch level, it might not take more than a few veterans to tilt the scale at some branches, but at other branches you'd be faced with having to overcome not only the opinions of a majority of civilians, but also the opinions of older veterans who think everything is just fine, because they have no clue of the inadequacies of the NVC.  My personal opinion is that we veterans irretrievably lost the RCL some time ago, and while the body is still alive, it's on life support.  Mathematically, the RCL could be taken back - but realistically, I don't think we'll ever muster the numbers to do it.

 

[ModlrMike]

My personal opinion is that we veterans irretrievably lost the RCL some time ago, and while the body is still alive, it's on life support.  Mathematically, the RCL could be taken back - but realistically, I don't think we'll ever muster the numbers to do it.

I respectfully disagree... the Legion lost us.

They went out of their way to lose us by making us feel unwelcome outside of Remembrance day. Even then, the RCL remained focused on the WWI, WWII, and Korea vets almost exclusively. I remember there being some big announcement about a new "Member at Large" category of membership, but absolute silence thereafter.

The Legion's privileged status provides it the opportunity to be greatly involved in the release process as a way of attracting potential members. Pure and simple, they dropped the ball here.

I agree with you contention that we're seeing a repeat of the 1920s though. Will that see the Legion rise from the ashes? I don't know. Very soon now their veteran membership will be made up of mostly Korea vets, but they're not much younger than the WW2 vets.

What I do know is that any new veteran organization needs to have a polished public face, and an impeccable administrative structure. Inarticulate ramblings and whining because you don't want to play by the rules do nothing to maintain the reputation of veterans in the mind of the public.

 

[George Wallace]

I respectfully disagree... the Legion lost us.

They went out of their way to lose us by making us feel unwelcome outside of Remembrance day. Even then, the RCL remained focused on the WWI, WWII, and Korea vets almost exclusively. I remember there being some big announcement about a new "Member at Large" category of membership, but absolute silence thereafter.

I have to agree with these points.  The Legion lost us.  Then instead of trying to correct their mistake, they brought in civilians with no military backgrounds to fill their voids, further alienating younger generations of veterans.

 

[Jed]

I have to agree with these points.  The Legion lost us.  Then instead of trying to correct their mistake, they brought in civilians with no military backgrounds to fill their voids, further alienating younger generations of veterans.

Absolutely correct.  So what should modern vets do about it?  The best approach is to quietly take back our Legion. Far better than forming several different organizations and then attempting to band them together sometime in the future.

 

[JS2218]

Internet press releases do not equal advocacy. If the RCL wants to attract young veterans, they need to be the first person to jump at the chance to speak to the media on our behalf instead of Blais.

I agree with this. If there's one thing Mike Blais has going for him, it's that he's technologically- and internet-savvy enough to be on all the major platforms and to communicate a compelling message that makes the media come to him. Maybe, then, one of the policies we as internal, Legion members, should be pushing for is to have more of our younger, Generation Y/Afghanistan generation veterans represented in and throughout Dominion Command. That would include having a savvy late-20/early-30 veteran in a key communications role, such as Director of Communications, Media Spokesperson, etc. Because right now, nothing against the current executive, but they're quite the WASPY late-60s bunch.

 

[JS2218]

The Legion has built itself into a respected organization in the eyes of the general Canadian population. Last year - yes, most likely in response to the attacks on CAF members in St-Jean-sur-Richelieu and Ottawa, however - the Legion saw unprecedented support for its poppy campaign.

I'm curious why you believe this. Following the terrorist attacks in St Jean and Ottawa, the Legion refused to distribute poppies before the already-established lead-up to Remembrance Day. In my opinion, this was an opportunity for the Legion to demonstrate that it stood behind our veterans - past and present - and yes, get a bit of a fundraising boost by distributing the poppies early. By refusing to hand out the poppies to comemmorate WO Vincent and Cpl Cirillo, the Legion demonstrated just how out of touch it was with present-day veterans and with Canadians who wanted an opportunity to show their support for the military and veterans as a whole.

 

[Occam]

I respectfully disagree... the Legion lost us.

They went out of their way to lose us by making us feel unwelcome outside of Remembrance day. Even then, the RCL remained focused on the WWI, WWII, and Korea vets almost exclusively. I remember there being some big announcement about a new "Member at Large" category of membership, but absolute silence thereafter.

The way you've put it, I'd have to agree with you.

Absolutely correct.  So what should modern vets do about it?  The best approach is to quietly take back our Legion. Far better than forming several different organizations and then attempting to band them together sometime in the future.

Referring back to the 100,000 number I tossed out earlier as an example - how are we going to get that number back through the front door of the RCL?

The challenges you face getting veterans to give the RCL a second look are pretty close to the same challenges that the messes face these days.  Were it not for mandatory mess dues, many messes would have been shuttered a long time ago.  You can force them to pay mess dues, but you can't force them to come to the mess.  Other than the advocacy aspect of the RCL, most modern vets just don't gravitate to the social aspect of the Legion (much like they no longer gravitate to the social life of the mess).

Because right now, nothing against the current executive, but they're quite the WASPY late-60s bunch.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who's noticed that, looking solely at their gongs, Mr. Irvine appears to be the only one who's served, or at the very least the only one who served long enough to get a CD.  I don't think I've ever seen so many QDJM and QGJM assembled in one place.

By refusing to hand out the poppies to comemmorate WO Vincent and Cpl Cirillo, the Legion demonstrated just how out of touch it was with present-day veterans and with Canadians who wanted an opportunity to show their support for the military and veterans as a whole.

:goodpost:
I'd completely forgotten about that, but it left me scratching my head at the time.

 

[ModlrMike]

Maybe, then, one of the policies we as internal, Legion members, should be pushing for is to have more of our younger, Generation Y/Afghanistan generation veterans represented in and throughout Dominion Command. That would include having a savvy late-20/early-30 veteran in a key communications role, such as Director of Communications, Media Spokesperson, etc.

That's unlikely to happen because you would have to wrest power from the hands of the current establishment.

Because right now, nothing against the current executive, but they're quite the WASPY late-60s bunch.

A very telling set of photographs.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I'm sure I'm not the only one who's noticed that, looking solely at their gongs, Mr. Irvine appears to be the only one who's served, or at the very least the only one who served long enough to get a CD.  I don't think I've ever seen so many QDJM and QGJM assembled in one place.

You missed Larry Murray and Brad White

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Larry Murray is both a gentleman and interested in the plight of soldiers, sailors and airmen. I know this from my personal dealings with him. Hopefully, he can turn the ship around.

 

[Occam]

You missed Larry Murray and Brad White

As I understand it, the Grand President is pretty much a figurehead and doesn't get involved with the day to day operation of the Legion, although I may stand to be corrected on that.  I've actually sailed with Larry Murray, when he was CANCOMDESRON ONE, back when we had such a thing.  I agree he's a top notch guy.  I missed the CD on Brad White's blurb - I need new glasses, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. 

 

[OldSolduer]

Absolutely correct.  So what should modern vets do about it?  The best approach is to quietly take back our Legion. Far better than forming several different organizations and then attempting to band them together sometime in the future.

Concur. Well said and my thoughts exactly. Most people know who the RCL is. They'd be hard pressed to name any other veterans org.

 

[Good2Golf]

I would give the RCL partial marks at least, for having VAdm(Ret'd) Murray as Grand President.  That is where some/much of the behind the scenes influence will come.  Only 25% vets in the executive is pretty telling though...that may take a while to change, and likely not without a fight from the "heavy right chesters"...

 

[medicineman]

Concur. Well said and my thoughts exactly. Most people know who the RCL is. They'd be hard pressed to name any other veterans org.

Though, looking at the majority of their executive, they'd be hard pressed to name any actual vets in said organization...

MM