What Changes Should be Made to the DART

[CF-22 Raptor]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned before, but maybe Canada should buy a  $75 million AN-124 cargo plane or a C-5 galaxy instead of asking the Russians for a ride whenever there's a distaster.

 

[Big Foot]

Just a note, we use Ukrainian Anotonovs, not Russian. But still, I agree with your idea that we should buy our own.

 

[combatcamera]

Hi:

I accidentally came accross this old thread today while checking the army.ca forums.  I don't know how many here have actually served with the DART, but I had the unique opportunity to deploy with the 217 members of the team during the earthquake in Pakistan recently.  Let me say that it was one of the most rewarding experiences of my time with the CF.  The team is made up from personnel from across the CF.  DART is self-sustained and designed to provide victims of natural disasters with medical support, clean drinking water, as well as engineering support in the interim period after search and rescue has been completed and before civilian agencies such as OXFAM, Red Crescent, etc. can take over.  Usually this is for a period of 40 days or so.  There is a very good backgrounder about DART's mission in Pakistan here:  http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/newsroom/view_news_e.asp?id=1796

I am not a subject matter expert on DART at all, but having deployed with them - I'll give you my personnal views, insights, and answers to some of the questions posted here.  Since disasters that Canada sends the DART team to can come few-and-far-between, there are actually very few people that have deployed with them more than twice, other than perhaps the CO, DCO, and a few other individuals.  For some on OP PLATEAU this was their first deployment overseas.

I'll try to keep my answers and replies here terse and again this is from my own experience working with them.  OK, here goes:

There is no doubt Canada needs to repair it's air and sealift capability,
but would a Hybrid Military-Civilian DART  make more sense? Should the DART stay 100% military, but be fully staffed instead of drawing personnel from other operational units?

DART already has civilians from DFAIT and  CIDA working closely with it when it deploys as well as on the ground.  The majority of personnel are military - mainly medics, engineers, combat arms, and service support to fulfill it's primary mandate.  The airlift capability would certainly be an asset, but it would take more than one aircraft to get all the kit there - sometimes halfway around the world.  I think (don't quote me), it took five or six Antonov flights to get all of DART's gear there plus several chalks of Airbuses to get the pers gear and troops there.  Remember, the unit is self sustained - it must bring everything, personnel, equipment, rations, electricity, toilets  ... you name it!  Sealift "seems" like a good option, until you figure how long it takes to get a boat halfway around the world - just not fast enough to help people in need.  Again, unlike the Americans, we do not have the luxury of having floating hospitals or supply ships in theatres of operation all over the world.

[QUOTE author=George Wallace]I was just thinking that if we had three JSS for SeaLift of a BG we would more or less have two "immediate responders" on duty at all times, with one in dry dock for maint.  With another Air Mobile DART facility and "Aircraft" in Trenton, we would drastically cut down on our response time for any national or international disaster.[/QUOTE]

Again, ships take too long to get gear to some spots period.  Any idea how long a warship takes to get to the Persian Gulf?  Warships have two jet engines and are VERY fast.  I'll let a Navy person answer that one!  Your own aircraft are nice to have, but you need more than one if you want to do this right  - and they cost BIG bucks.  Right now we rent.  One of the problems in Pakistan was the area was very remote and mountainous - Kashmir.  This meant Canada had to rent a civilian helicopter (ex-Soviet make no less!) to fly humanitarian aid and missions into the surrounding areas.  Chinooks (had Canada kept them) would have been perfect there and in other places such as Afghanistan in combat roles.  Many of the helicopters that Pakistan President Pervez Musharaf asked for came from the US Army, NATO, and ISAF in Afghanistan.  The DART recce was actually there VERY quick.  They came from TFA in Kandahar as well as some elements from Canada.  Think they were there on 12 Oct.  Again, the decision to deploy DART is initialized by the host nation ASKING for assistance.  Once that happens, and our Government agrees, DART goes.  All the kit and personnel are good to go and on stand-by when large-scale disaters happen.  Sometimes (like the earthquake in Bam, Iran several years ago) DART is spooled-up but not requested at all by the host nation.

What's lacking and what is the DART's true weakness is political will to deploy it, and its ability to get there.

Again, even by renting a/c large amounts of gear can get there as fast as possible.  Politics certainly plays a role.  I think you see the Government's response was much faster this time than in the aftermath of the Asian Tsunami.  I'll also hazard a guess and say the negative press on that one had something to do with it!

It is always more cost effective to own then to rent, particularly when it is something that will get used, like large cargo aircraft.

Yes, cargo aircraft can be used for more than just the DART.  Again, they cost LOTS of money, but are truely a wise purchase from our small DND budget.  There would have to be cuts made presently somewhere, or an increase in budget funds to cover this.  Hard for some socialists in Canada to swallow.

I liked the idea of getting back to basics, doing what we do best, and doing it right:
In the context of the DART, maintain a specialised recce team and launch it immediately (kinda like "disaster pathfinders" ...).
Then send follow-on forces such as "ordinary" Engineer and Medical units, augmented with CIMIC trained in civil emergencies.

Nice idea, but somebody's already thought of it .....    The Recce teams DO have specialists on them from some of the agencies you mention as well as on the DART main body!  Some of the most "extraordinary" work is done by the "ordinary" CF personnel - medics, engineers, and others.  Could very well be some on this forum!

Just musing out loud but would not a dedicated hospital ship deployed to the area ease the burden on hospitals in the effected areas?

Yup, and the USN have sent USNS Mercy - plus the Indian Navy has deployed 29 warships ...

Again, the quote was written and is referring to the DART deployment to the Tsunami.  Once more, it takes time to get such a ship there.  We are not the US.  In Pakistan it would have been totally useless.  Look at a map of the earthquake  zone.  Pretty far away from water, eh?  Considering how infrequently DART is deployed, such a ship would cost HUGE bucks to maintain in the interim.

Anyone know if there are electricians on the DART team??

Of course, as well as a few large generators for power.

armymedic

I haven't actually quoted him verbatim here.  Just read his responses please.  He certainly knows what he is talking about.

What surprises me is that the DART team isn't run by an Engineering (Army) or Airfield Engineering (Air,duh) Officer, similar in structure to an ACT or AEF.

Actually, on the last two deployments, the CO and DCO were both engineering officers.  EXACTLY the specialized people you want leading these things - medical officers included too.  Heard a rumour on the last mission that they want to change this leadership role to combat arms.  Big mistake I think, since there are so many engineering/medical/technical issues involved.  Remember DART is there to provide medical support, clean water, and engineering help as well as co-ordinating this with civilian agencies during a disaster.  I think specialists are who you need to lead the team.  Most of the combat-arms-types do D and S as well as Recce roles to get the medical teams to where they are needed.  Important yes, but the combat arms are really there in a "supporting role" - unlike other missions - hard for some to fathom.  Really bizarre to see them playing second fiddle and support.  Only on DART will you see this!

Ignorance is bliss

Have you ever been on a mission of any substantial size; it requires many support staff?  To keep it to 100 pers is almost out of the question..........you cannot have the req'd pers to sustain the mission.  This is not for a mere press release, it is to actually do good for mankind....

Oops!  See above .....

If ignorance is bliss you must be pretty happy. I don't need to justify my experience to you but for an initial setup you would require far less than 100 pers. Yes, support staff is required, but how much support staff do you need for a beddown? Not much. Once you get set up, sure, send more pers in, but a SMALL unit can deploy faster with less kit than a large one, and can have things up and running before the main body arrives, if there even needs to be a main body.

Obviously you haven't been deployed with the DART at all!  The team is already "pared-down".  It has lots of medics, engineers, communicators, combat arms, svc support, specialists, civvies, etc to do the job.  These are the people they require to fulfill the mission.  Remember this is a 24-hour operation for 40 days or so, sometimes in arduous terrain and perhaps even on foot.  100 personnel to do all this PLUS run the main camp with a field hospital just doesn't cut it!  You'll have to do the math yourself.  Ever wonder who takes care of the garbage on DART?  Somebody has to!

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Anyways, those are just my thoughts on deploying with DART.  Great experience if any of you can go on it.  You can see my pics from OP PLATEAU here:  http://www.combatcamera.forces.gc.ca/netpub/server.np?find&defaultjoin=and&field=Keywords&op=contains&value=DART&field=Description&op=contains&value=hudec&site=combatcamera&catalog=photos&template=results_e.np&sorton=IPTC%20-%20DateCreated&ascending=0

It gives you a better idea of what the troops on this mission experienced.  Enjoy, I welcome your feedback!

Frank

www.combatcamera.forces.gc.ca
www.frankhudec.ca

 

[Armymatters]

For everyone's information, when we sent DART to Pakistan in October of 2005, we got the biggest airplane in the world to get us there: The Ukranian Antonov An-225 Mriya, or this sucker:

We obviously need some strategic airlifters to carry the current equipment of DART to a disaster zone. Either we get bigger airlifters, or we get smaller equipment. Shrinking DART to something more manageable and easily transported is perhaps a better solution.

 

[Armymedic]

Shrinking DART to something more manageable and easily transported is perhaps a better solution.

Shrinking is an easy word to say..

What capability would you suggest losing?

 

[Armymatters]

Shrinking is an easy word to say..

What capability would you suggest losing?

Dumping equipment that requires a large Antonov to begin with and replacing it with equipment that is smaller that can fit on a Herc. Of course, that means that we have to speed up replacing the Herc fleet, so get whatever can fit in the Herc replacement.

 

[George Wallace]

In most cases, it is not the size of the equipment, but the amount that is required.  Massive amounts of kit and supplies must be transported.

 

[Armymatters]

In most cases, it is not the size of the equipment, but the amount that is required.  Massive amounts of kit and supplies must be transported.

So what I am understanding it is often not the size, just the fact we can't send out the number of Hercs we need to where it needs to be... to give me an idea, on say a typical deployment, how much equipment and supplies is acutally sent out?

 

[Hawker]

So what I am understanding it is often not the size, just the fact we can't send out the number of Hercs we need to where it needs to be... to give me an idea, on say a typical deployment, how much equipment and supplies is acutally sent out?

Refer back to Combatcamera's posting in this thread.  He gives a good overview of the latest deployment including what it took to get DART overseas.

 

[Armymatters]

So, for a typical full DART deployment, I am reading that there is a round a dozen of the 20 ft ISO containers, and the standard CF ISO container carrier is the HLVW... so around 12 of the HLVW's are taken along, if you do not take the trailers. You are going to have to lift the ISO containers containing the equipment so bring along LiftKing LK container loader or two, and you need to get the 200 troops and staff to the area, a couple of MLVW's carrying troops and other supplies are taken along... for engineering to build the base, and to start rebuilding, a excavator is needed, and if there isn't one already there, take your own, plus a transporter to carry it, and you need a crane... and your also taking a good sized helicopter (we used a KA-32A Helix leased from a Canadian company)...

Breaking down the ISO containers, I am seeing we are taking along the following:
4 ROWPU water purifiers (1 ISO container each)
3 Diesel Generators (1 ISO container each)
A field hospital (roughly 3 20 ft ISO containers)
Various tents, shelters for the staff, other supplies (roughly 2-3 ISO containers)

A Herc can take 2 20ft ISO containers (so 6 Hercs are needed just for the ISO containers), the Liftking and the crane will require another Herc, for taking the MLWV's, you need a pair of Hercs as well, a HLVW can fit in one Herc, so 14 Hercs are need for the HLVW equipment... don't forget flying the troops and staff there, so a CC-150 Polaris (Airbus A310) is flown out, and that can take some cargo as well... so all in all, roughly 30 Herc flights are needed. When we deployed to Sri Lanka, we chartered 2 AN-124's for a total of 5 flights, so assumming that the Antonov's were fully loaded, 9000 cubic metres of cargo was sent to Sri Lanka, or roughly 1200 tons of cargo (using the max carrying capacity of the large Antonov's), but that is a unrealistic weight for all that cargo, so I expect half that at least...

I can see this is already a headache (I am getting one already from just trying to figure this out)...

 

[George Wallace]

And you haven't even thought of the Ambulances, and other Admin B Vehicles.

 

[Armymatters]

And you haven't even thought of the Ambulances, and other Admin B Vehicles.

Add an extra 4 Hercs for that, so definetely around 36 Herc flights, plus a CC-150 Polaris flight...

 

[OnTrack]

As I recall the Honduras (Op Central) deployment it was 60 Herc flights and a number of pax Airbus and combi Airbus flights.  There is kit that has not been accounted for...SupaCats, rations, water, there were a number of Ford F150 pick-up that went south.

 

[Scott57]

...... Honduras (Op Central) deployment it was 60 Herc flights and a number of pax Airbus and combi Airbus flights.

You may be right. However, there was also Antonov's (or Ilyushin's) in the mix. I don't recall any SupaCats or vehicles going missing either. A lot of tentage and rations were left behind (or burnt).

 

[OnTrack]

Sorry I was not clear.  By not accounting for I was referring to a previous post where a kit list did not include those articles that I listed.  I did not intend to mean that they didn't come home with us.  The Antonovs were only used on the repat because of the number of Hercs required and the requirement to reconstitute quickly.

The other factors that caused the big load for the Honduras deployment was the extra load resulting from the deployment of 6 (4 ?) Griffin  helos and the mobile field ATC unit (can't recall the unit's name).

Yes there was a significant amount of tentage left behind...as I recall it was transferred to CIDA's charge and distributed by them.

 

[Scott57]

We probably know each other as I deployed to Honduras from Div Hq. You're right about CIDA and the tentage. I remember it being a bit of a battle leaving it behind. Besides 408 Sqn, there was CFMCU (Movement Control Unit) and also the Military Police deployed as ASF (Airfield Securirty Force ?). 

 

[combatcamera]

So, for a typical full DART deployment, I am reading that there is a round a dozen of the 20 ft ISO containers, and the standard CF ISO container carrier is the HLVW... so around 12 of the HLVW's are taken along, if you do not take the trailers. You are going to have to lift the ISO containers containing the equipment so bring along LiftKing LK container loader or two, and you need to get the 200 troops and staff to the area, a couple of MLVW's carrying troops and other supplies are taken along... for engineering to build the base, and to start rebuilding, a excavator is needed, and if there isn't one already there, take your own, plus a transporter to carry it, and you need a crane... and your also taking a good sized helicopter (we used a KA-32A Helix leased from a Canadian company)...

Breaking down the ISO containers, I am seeing we are taking along the following:
4 ROWPU water purifiers (1 ISO container each)
3 Diesel Generators (1 ISO container each)
A field hospital (roughly 3 20 ft ISO containers)
Various tents, shelters for the staff, other supplies (roughly 2-3 ISO containers)

A Herc can take 2 20ft ISO containers (so 6 Hercs are needed just for the ISO containers), the Liftking and the crane will require another Herc, for taking the MLWV's, you need a pair of Hercs as well, a HLVW can fit in one Herc, so 14 Hercs are need for the HLVW equipment... don't forget flying the troops and staff there, so a CC-150 Polaris (Airbus A310) is flown out, and that can take some cargo as well... so all in all, roughly 30 Herc flights are needed. When we deployed to Sri Lanka, we chartered 2 AN-124's for a total of 5 flights, so assumming that the Antonov's were fully loaded, 9000 cubic metres of cargo was sent to Sri Lanka, or roughly 1200 tons of cargo (using the max carrying capacity of the large Antonov's), but that is a unrealistic weight for all that cargo, so I expect half that at least...

I can see this is already a headache (I am getting one already from just trying to figure this out)...

First of all you don't always need to put kit in ISO containers when you're using Antonov's.  The generator trailers for Op PLATEAU were driven right onto the plane, along with the vehicles transporting them.  You also don't necessarily need your own vehicles to transport your kit to the relief zone.  In Pakistan we simply rented "Jingle" trucks and drivers to do this.  These are the "18-wheelers" of transport in South Asia - they're actually old Bedford trucks painted up, and they hold LOTS of kit.  The cranes that were used for the few ISO's we had were rented as well. 

Each mission is different.  The problem in Pakistan was the sheer ruggedness of the terrain.  The epicenter of the earthquake was in the Himalayan foothills in Pakistan-administered Kashmir.  Vehicles are nice, but accessing these hardest-hit areas was done on foot or by helicopter using Mobile Medical Teams.  Some roads were blocked by landslides or completely gone.  This was a disaster zone.  Even something as seemingly simple as a two kilometer hike to a mountain village from a road, took five hours, once you realized the steepness of the terrain.  Remember, the medics had to carry their medical gear, field kit, plus rations, plus water, into these remote areas.  No easy task.  I know because I went with them. 

If you think we can do this logistical transport from Canada with Hercs alone - think again.  You need lots of Hercs, plus the maintainers and aircrew.  If you've ever worked at an airforce base (I have) you'll know how much work this takes.  The next time I head to KAF (in April), we will be focusing on the air movements part of the Op ARCHER mission.  I think it's an area most people are clueless about and don't fully appreciate except when getting their a$$ out of there. 

Much of the kit going over on any DART is medical since that is one of the primary goals of this humanitarian-type mission.  Remember, DART provides interim relief after the search-and-rescue phase of a disaster and before civilian or local agencies can take over.  Much kit, such as some sections of modular tentage, is left behind as humanitarian aid.

Again, (you can try) but there's no need in speculating what we need to do the job.  People who actually do the planning and are experts in this stuff have already thought of it.  Also, don't believe all the criticism your read about DART in the media.  Once you actually go on a DART deployment you'll know how impressive it's capabilities are.

Frank

www.combatcamera.forces.gc.ca
www.frankhudec.ca

 

[Armymedic]

Breaking down the ISO containers, I am seeing we are taking along the following:
4 ROWPU water purifiers (1 ISO container each)
3 Diesel Generators (1 ISO container each)
A field hospital (roughly 3 20 ft ISO containers)
Various tents, shelters for the staff, other supplies (roughly 2-3 ISO containers)

Just to poop on your plate...the med platoon ( a fd hosp is huge, and would fill all the ISO's you mention) would take 2 complete ISO containers just for disposable medical supplies (drugs, dressings etc), not to mention all the specific medical kit they would need to bring along.

 

[Adam]

1) Beer
2) More spaghetti & Meat balls less Navern
3) Powerbars that don't start fires
4) Mongooses (lots)
5) Canadian/ethnic interpreters (lots)