Warrior Platoon

[JorgSlice]

A fair chance? People have a fair chance between the time they decide they want to join the army and the day they leave for basic training. Why on earth should we pay someone to get in shape for months or even years if they don't have the basic capability to do it on their own?

Were you expecting the staff to give you a pass since you only failed by a little bit because you were sick?

No not at all. I asked to do the test again the next day, or even Wednesday, 2 days from then. They said no... and "Oh sorry, our closest available vacancy for the PT Test is at the end of next month."

But what I'm saying is that for the Reg Force, Warrior Platoon is a "second chance" stage, for people that may be congested for one day/off day/not familiar with the Standardized Push Up Form, etc. as everyone has one. I'm not saying give them a freebie pass (that's just ridiculous).

It's "silly and unfair" to ask people to do proper pushups....because they can't do as many if they have to be done properly?

You know it's a test, right?

You're given a date for the PT test. You're given a sheet with the standards by age and gender. Nothing explaining "The pushups must be conduct in this form..." No diagrams. You go in expecting that any old form of push-up will count. A wider stance of push-up while easier, is the generic one people are taught in school during gym class and is recognized commonly by the average person. You get into the PT Test and the Invigilator explains and demonstrates the expect forms of the test, they then explain "Any push ups not done in this form will not count." How do you expect people with no prior knowledge, to go into a test and be capable of something they've never known and trained for? There was a guy in there during my first test who wasn't Captain Fitness but was well prepared. Had never done a push up in that form and struggled with it and missed the threshold by 2 push ups because of "improper form". How is it fair to expect someone to be proficient in something they've never been taught and trained for?

That's like throwing a Pte. fresh out of Initial Phase training into a tank for his Gunnery Qual. and say "This is your gunnery test. Go." Same concept: How can you expect someone to be proficient in something they don't know?

Edit: I'm not talking about giving Tub o' Guts a bye and end up floating in the training system, getting paid, and then effectively sent home for being a piss poor candidate.

 

[Jarnhamar]

http://cdn.forces.ca/_PDF2010/physical_fitness_en.pdf

 

[Journeyman]

Yet, somehow, every generation of recruits has managed to do the minimum number of proper pushups....until now.

Even with that minimum number continually dwindling, now it's "silly and unfair" to expect them to actually do proper pushups, leaving us with Fat Camp... Nanny Platoon... Warrior Platoon.

If the Invigilator explains and demonstrates the expected forms and the applicant cannot complete it, perhaps they shouldn't have expected to join the military in abysmal shape -- after all, aren't your play-station action heroes all pretty buff?


I won't even bother addressing your belief that a MBT gunnery exam is logically the same as the minimum number of pushups.

 

[JorgSlice]

Yet, somehow, every generation of recruits has managed to do the minimum number of proper pushups....until now.

Even with that minimum number continually dwindling, now it's "silly and unfair" to expect them to actually do proper pushups, leaving us with Fat Camp... Nanny Platoon... Warrior Platoon.

If the Invigilator explains and demonstrates the expected forms and the applicant cannot complete it, perhaps they shouldn't have expected to join the military in abysmal shape -- after all, aren't your play-station action heroes all pretty buff?


I won't even bother addressing your belief that a MBT gunnery exam is logically the same as the minimum number of pushups.

These people I'm talking about did every other phase of the test just fine, exceeding the minimum, but when it came to the push ups, there were a couple who despite doing well on other parts, missed the pushup required by 1 or 2 because of "bad form - doesn't count" being played in their ear every 2 or 3 push-ups. Nowhere did I say "people in abysmal shape."

It just seems backwards, but it really is like anything else. Algebra, woodworking, pipefitting... how do you expect someone to know something and do well in something they have no prior knowledge of?

 

[Sythen]

Just a small anecdote.

When my little sister was sent home from BMQ, because she missed it by 2 push ups, there was 7 people in PAR with her for the same reason. All but one of them was a "chesty" female.

Not gonna change anyone's opinions, but sometimes physically fit people can't do something, not due to a lack of fitness, but due to something else.

 

[Tyson Fox]

When I did my naval reserve BMQ, there was an Expres test close to the start of the course, and it didn't really matter if you passed or failed...as long as you met the minimum dealie of two pushups for girls and 4 for guys or whatever to avoid getting sent home. Whoever failed the first test would merely be subject to remedial PT and run the Expres test again at the end of the course. However, failure of the second one would be a RTU, full stop. Not a bad way of doing it.

EDIT: Okay, it "mattered" that you pass it the first time, but I'm sure you guys catch my drift.

 

[northernboy_24]

I am so tired of people complaining about not meeting the fitness standard.  I am not the most fit person at work, but I strive to be in the top 20% because it is important for me to be fit.  We in the military have a duty to be able to complete our daily tasks and the tasks that the Government of Canada mandates us to do.  If I am to go fight forest fires, fill sandbags or assist in an urban rescue after a natural disaster then I have a responsibility to the citizens of Canada to be able to assist.  As a junior officer I push my fellow officers to be as fit as they can and lead by example in every aspect of my personal and professional life. 

I understand you had a bad day, I have them as well.  I trained before I went into a recruiting centre and trained before going to basic.  My recruiting officer showed me how to do the military pushups and I could almost guarantee that your recruiting centre would have shown you the pushups that are expected.

If the minimum pushups are giving you a struggle then please train for the test and train for your general fitness levels before "wasting the taxpayers money"

 

[Infanteer]

Just a small anecdote.

When my little sister was sent home from BMQ, because she missed it by 2 push ups, there was 7 people in PAR with her for the same reason. All but one of them was a "chesty" female.

Not gonna change anyone's opinions, but sometimes physically fit people can't do something, not due to a lack of fitness, but due to something else.

Which is why the fitness test is changing to a more realistic, functional variant.

 

[JorgSlice]

I am so tired of people complaining about not meeting the fitness standard.  I am not the most fit person at work, but I strive to be in the top 20% because it is important for me to be fit.  We in the military have a duty to be able to complete our daily tasks and the tasks that the Government of Canada mandates us to do.  If I am to go fight forest fires, fill sandbags or assist in an urban rescue after a natural disaster then I have a responsibility to the citizens of Canada to be able to assist.  As a junior officer I push my fellow officers to be as fit as they can and lead by example in every aspect of my personal and professional life. 

I understand you had a bad day, I have them as well.  I trained before I went into a recruiting centre and trained before going to basic.  My recruiting officer showed me how to do the military pushups and I could almost guarantee that your recruiting centre would have shown you the pushups that are expected.

If the minimum pushups are giving you a struggle then please train for the test and train for your general fitness levels before "wasting the taxpayers money"

I've always been in decent physical shape, as yourself, though I could be better. I'm not complaining about having to maintain fitness or having a entry PT test, I'm complaining that many CFRCs do not give literature or demonstration on the proper form of push-up until the day of the test and some people are thrown off because the form does activate different muscle groups than the generic pushup form that the average Canadian is familiar with. Thus, causing good, fit people, to push out 30 push ups during the test but only 18 counted because of "bad form". How do they expect people who have no prior knowledge to have good form on something they don't know? I've seen it happen in two different occasions.

I applied for the P Res on my 16th birthday, received nothing regarding military push up.
I later applied to the Reg Force on 3 separate occasions (due to trades closing that were on my selection, moving provinces), was given nothing on fitness other than the minimum numbers for EXPRES.
Then in April of this year, going into the PRes after RegF dreams were shot down because of limited positions, nothing given except the numbers. If I didn't know any better, I too would have expected that any old push up would count on it. So in that light, no, you cannot guarantee it. The CFRC/PSP staff then sneer and say "Well, you should have been doing the proper push up form then. Better luck next time." Only time the CFRC ever told me the expected for of push up, was the day of the test, right before commencing it. However, not all CFRCs are the same.

The CFRCs can be a real strange thing sometimes. Hell, they wouldn't let me photocopy my own documents in case they got lost because "...they're protected, we can't let you do that." My own damn signature on documents, and they wouldn't let me see them.

 

[Smirnoff123]

How do they expect people who have no prior knowledge to have good form on something they don't know? I've seen it happen in two different occasions. 

Pushups arent a secret that only those in the military know about or do. Im sure theres a million websites or videos on youtube showing proper form. I dont think this is an acceptable excuse.

C.G.R

 

[JorgSlice]

Pushups arent a secret that only those in the military know about or do. Im sure theres a million websites or videos on youtube showing proper form. I dont think this is an acceptable excuse.

C.G.R

You clearly underestimate the capabilities of the average Canadian citizen, who, are largely clueless and will not do any information seeking. But again, there are multiple forms of a push-up, and the ones the average Canadian is familiar with (as it is the common form taught in schools) is not acceptable according to the CF.

But seriously, you're handed a piece of paper that says: "Push ups - 19" How many people do you think sit there and go "OH! I better make sure I find out what kind of a push up is needed." Unless you are a fitness buff who recognizes there's multiple forms, former cadet, former mil service, or someone who was actually told by CFRC staff what the CF appropriate push-up is; nobody will even think there's different forms.

 

[MusclesGlasses]

You clearly underestimate the capabilities of the average Canadian citizen, who, are largely clueless and will not do any information seeking. But again, there are multiple forms of a push-up, and the ones the average Canadian is familiar with (as it is the common form taught in schools) is not acceptable according to the CF.

But seriously, you're handed a piece of paper that says: "Push ups - 19" How many people do you think sit there and go "OH! I better make sure I find out what kind of a push up is needed." Unless you are a fitness buff who recognizes there's multiple forms, former cadet, former mil service, or someone who was actually told by CFRC staff what the CF appropriate push-up is; nobody will even think there's different forms.

Oh come on.

Recruits are handed a "piece of paper" that says :

">    Lie flat on your stomach, legs together.
>>    Hands, pointing forward, should be positioned comfortably under the
shoulders: someone standing over you should be able to see part of your
hand but not all of it. Elbows should be along your sides.
>>    Using your toes as the pivot point, push up by straightening and locking
your elbows. The body must be kept in a straight line.
>>    When returning to the starting position, the back of the upper arms will
be parallel to the mat. Your chin, stomach, thighs, and knees are not to
touch the mat.
>>    Push-ups are to be performed continuously and without a time limit.
Repetitions that do not conform to the push-up test technique should not
be counted. Perform this motion in a continuous manner. Do as many
repetitions as you can. Stop when the movement becomes forcibly strained."

Either that or they put in the effort to do research about the PT test requirements and find out about the proper form on their own. To assume that this is beyond 'the capabilities of the average Canadian citizen', as you put it, is to say that most applicants to the CF are not taking their application seriously and do no research into the process beyond filling out the paperwork.

I for one, think you 'greatly underestimate the capabilities of the average Canadian citizen'.

Cheers

 

[JorgSlice]

Oh come on.

Recruits are handed a "piece of paper" that says :

Either that or they put in the effort to do research about the PT test requirements and find out about the proper form on their own. To assume that this is beyond 'the capabilities of the average Canadian citizen', as you put it, is to say that most applicants to the CF are not taking their application seriously and do no research into the process beyond filling out the paperwork.

I for one, think you 'greatly underestimate the capabilities of the average Canadian citizen'.

Cheers

Sure, recruits going to CFLRS may receive it if the CFRC staff are diligent. However when I went into the P Res we were given nothing except the numbers, not only in my second testing bracket were there 3 males and 2 females out of a group of 11 who'd never seen or performed a push up like this before and were given no information to it before having to show up at the CFRC for the test; I then had to go through the first 2 weeks of BMQ of people whining and bitching (people meaning nearly a 8-10 out of 25) that they've never done push ups like these before, never had any idea there different forms of push ups and "...they're pretty hard too. Why do I have to do these if I can do more of the other?." Tell me, please, please tell me that it's because these people researched the CF inside and out and received a fitness booklet and that is why they are incapable and whiny.

(Don't make me get into the people I wrote the CFAT with who, were some of the most ill-informed people I've met that were aspiring to be in the CF).

But thank you, Mr. Applicant for putting your years of CF experience and wisdom. I am awe-struck.  :

 

[MusclesGlasses]

But thank you, Mr. Applicant for putting your years of CF experience and wisdom. I am awe-struck.  :

Where does it say you need to have years of CF experience and wisdom to know how to research something properly on the internet, or even ask questions of someone in a CFRC office. You sure seem to be getting pretty defensive over this.

 

[JorgSlice]

Where does it say you need to have years of CF experience and wisdom to know how to research something properly on the internet. You sure seem to be getting pretty defensive over this.

Not at all, I'm not defending anyone, apart from experiences I've witness with my very own eyes. People as such that I've referenced needed to be slapped in the face.

You're clearly not reading my previous post and understanding it. Not everyone is switched on in the head to go and research everything. Sadly, lots of people these require to almost be held by the hand. This is the issue with the system at times (for P Res applicants that is), some CFRCs demonstrate the movement prior to the test, some give out literature, and there's some that don't at all and expect people to just somehow "know" that there's this other form of push-up that's only accepted. A

All I'm saying is somewhere, there's a hole; not every single person walking out of the CFRC is going to get that light bulb above their head and think "Hey, I need to go research about the CF PT test required for entry because I'm skeptical about the piece of paper they gave that just shows the requirements." The average Canadian can't even be bothered to research the facts about the Operations in Afghanistan and end spouting a bunch of embarrassing garbage, what makes you think they'd know to makes sure their doing the right kind of push up if they weren't told otherwise?

My "experience" comment was more directed at the fact that you probably hadn't realized that P Res (at least out in BC and AB) are not given that guide, and I was sharing my experience of BMQ and BMQ-L where people whined about the military push up. I'm not getting defensive at all.

Oh well, at the end of the day; I believe that all people have the potential to achieve and do great things and despite what a drain of funds on the training system it may be, I agree with having Warrior Platoon to give people a second chance to prove themselves. There should be however some method to retrieve wages or at least penalize in some fashion the MIR Commando or the Tub O' Guts that shows up to BMQ, floats around on Warrior, still can't meet the minimum, then sits on PAR for an undetermined period of time for showing up so greatly unprepared that even weeks or even months on Warrior had no improvement. Great idea in concept, but it's execution is not so solid. But hey, what do I know, I'm just a mouth-breathing bottom-feeder.

This is my opinion through my relatively short experience in the CF so far from Application(s) to present. I'm stepping on my dick pretty hard, but it's because this is something I've seen happen. How? I don't know and it even amazes me that people are that dumb, but guess what it happens.

Edit: I'm having a bad week. I'm out.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I think the purpose is to give everyone a fair chance of a successful career in the Canadian Forces by having that second chance to improve fitness and go on to graduate.

I am going to suggest that the reason the entrance PT test at CFRCs was removed for Reg Force applicants was because we needed to get more recruits thru Basic quicker.  Also part of my WAG:

1.  CFRG was told "find a way to improve throughput" or something along than line.
2.  Extensive info recce was done.  Many people suffer thru briefings and O Groups, some of them permanently scared from too many Powerpoints loaded with pie charts, bar graphs and words from the thesaurus no one has every heard of before (it was close to PER season so... ;D).
3.  Determination is made the quickest way to get more applicants thru the recruiting process and thru the Green Door @ CFLRS is to remove the entrance PT test.
4.  Snr Leadership signs off on it, CDA tells Cmdt CFLRS "we need to come up with an SOP to deal with Recruits and OCdts who fail the PT test.  More piecharting and graphing is accompanied by flow charts; several more casualties result from follow-on PowerPoint death sessions.

 

[Scott]

Jesus Christ, they are pushups. We are not asking potential recruits to perform complex physical tasks. Do it the right way or run th risk of having to do it again, and again, and again.

My opinion: it should not be done on MY dime. You show up for a job that you know is physically demanding not ready to perform then you should be gone*, right there. We have seen evidence of loads of folks waiting to get in - give them the shot.

*If the CF is now making new tests to account for someone's "shape" (i.e. rack) then I see no issue with this. It's realistic. Coddling fat kids for years is not

 

[Journeyman]

    :goodpost:


PrairieThunder; got it.  You're miffed at the pushup portion of the initial PT test.

Based upon your apparent expertise at designing personnel selection systems, and your experience of surviving a gruelling Reserve BMQ (thankfully aided by your Cadet experiences), you want the CF to revamp its recruiting practices -- in this instance, regarding a discussion on "Warrior" Platoon, which has nothing to do with Reseves or Cadets.

But we got it...... about 20 posts ago.  Now let it go, and try to find a life to get on with.

    :deadhorse:

 

[SMG III]

Kids got a point bro. The CF is toting the 'warrior' thing- can't really blame these guys for picking up the lingo (though I share your sentiment).


Blackjack, you should be ashamed of yourself for failing- especially after doing all the "fun" stuff. Sounds like maybe you approached it with the wrong mentality.
You should now use that shame and embarrassment and really wreck the gym and crush all the weights there. Use the time you have as a punishment and become a physical monster.

Good job on your running level 8 on the MSR.

You learned a great lesson already carrying all your crap- pack lighter.

No, he should not be "ashamed" for failing. You have no right to tell someone that.

Be disappointed, but never ashamed. Learn from your mistakes, and improve.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I have to add a few comments WRT this. 

You're given a date for the PT test. You're given a sheet with the standards by age and gender. Nothing explaining "The pushups must be conduct in this form..." No diagrams. You go in expecting that any old form of push-up will count. A wider stance of push-up while easier, is the generic one people are taught in school during gym class and is recognized commonly by the average person.

Ok, so they are told what they have to do and how many of each, prior to the test.  I am not seeing a problem yet, other than people assume it will 'be like in high school'.  If the form they are given doesn't say "just like in highschool", why would they assume that?  (Not an actual question)

You get into the PT Test and the Invigilator explains and demonstrates the expect forms of the test, they then explain "Any push ups not done in this form will not count."

Wait.  This sounds like something used in the CF Method Of Instruction (MOI) commonly used in Skill lectures called EDI (Explaination, Demonstration, Imitation).  Drill, wpns handling, you name it...EDI is the bread and butter for how to instruct Skill stuff. 

How do you expect people with no prior knowledge, to go into a test and be capable of something they've never known and trained for?

 

Ok, first...we are talking about PUSH UPS.  How complicated is it??  To answer your "how do you expect" question...because of the EDI they were given maybe?  :

Aside from the obvious issue of anyone not being able to follow simple EDI type stuff with a pushup, I'll suggest anyone who can't follow simple EDI stuff for a pushup might be demonstrating an apptitude (or lack of) that WILL be required in future CF trg. 

How is it fair to expect someone to be proficient in something they've never been taught and trained for?

 

It's not, which is why (1) they are given a paper showing them what they need to do and how many of each (to meet the MINIMUM standard), AND (2) why the tester gives them the required EDI stuff before they start the test.  I've done a PT test every year, and every single time the testing staff does the EDI for proper form for each component, they've asked at the end "are there any questions?"  If they don't get it, this is their chance to get it sorted out before the test. 

Do I or anyone else really need to pick this apart any further?  I think its time for a "Sum Up!" icon.  However, in lieu of that I'll just use this one.  ---->  :stop: