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Wanted: Company to Replace "Paper 404's"
- Thread starter The Bread Guy
- Start date
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I'd be interested in hearing from someone knowledgeable in the subject (e.g. an MP) about any real-world problems that are caused by the current 404 format.
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They suck........Let me elaborate a little.
They are totally insecure, made from easily copied paper with an ink stamp that is also easily copied by any half-decent coloured scanner and software. There is no access to the FMS database (only Tpt reps and MSE Safety, typically, has that currently) using them.
More 404's have been lost in washing machines than I care to think of. Even laminating them (which technically is not supposed to happen but is done in some locations) only goes so far to protect them.
WRT law enforcement agencies, 404's are the only license you are supposed to show when operating military vehicles (including rental vehicles while on duty). The paper ones are a joke and there's nothing that any LEO can do with it, outside of contacting the MP's if there is a Base nearby (and if they know about it). While I'm sure the Freddie police know to contact the MP's wrt one of our guys/gals getting involved in a scrap at the 20/20 (or whatever the heck we are calling that place this month), I'd be surprised if they knew what 404's where.
It's about time we joined the 21st century and got properly secured DND 404's. But of course, that means that the Truckers should open up FMS access a little bit as well.
Or is MASSIS supposed to fix that as well?
Wook
They are totally insecure, made from easily copied paper with an ink stamp that is also easily copied by any half-decent coloured scanner and software. There is no access to the FMS database (only Tpt reps and MSE Safety, typically, has that currently) using them.
More 404's have been lost in washing machines than I care to think of. Even laminating them (which technically is not supposed to happen but is done in some locations) only goes so far to protect them.
WRT law enforcement agencies, 404's are the only license you are supposed to show when operating military vehicles (including rental vehicles while on duty). The paper ones are a joke and there's nothing that any LEO can do with it, outside of contacting the MP's if there is a Base nearby (and if they know about it). While I'm sure the Freddie police know to contact the MP's wrt one of our guys/gals getting involved in a scrap at the 20/20 (or whatever the heck we are calling that place this month), I'd be surprised if they knew what 404's where.
It's about time we joined the 21st century and got properly secured DND 404's. But of course, that means that the Truckers should open up FMS access a little bit as well.
Or is MASSIS supposed to fix that as well?
Wook
- Reaction score
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Yup, and if it's going to be anything like getting photo ID around here, it'll take a year to get it, if you're lucky.
In any case, you'll still be carrying around a paper temp.
In any case, you'll still be carrying around a paper temp.
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Counter points...
Who cares if they're easily copied? We already have military IDs to verify the idenity of the carrier. Given that the 404s carry all the individual vehicle qualifications of the driver, and given that it's not impossible to go through a dozen new sets of 404s in a year as you get student qualifications followed by new qualifications. As pointed out, if it's anything like getting a new ID, you'll be able to get your new set issued 6 months from Thursday.
As far as the laminating, this is the first I've ever heard they're not supposed to be laminated, not that I'm telling you you're wrong, but please show a written reference stating they're not to be laminated.
With regards to the 404s, the law enforcement officer is also entitled to ask for ID, which we already have in a more permanent version. Our 404s aren't an ID, and don't claim to be. That's why we have military IDs (Which, on the other hand COULD use a security update)
So again, who cares?
Who cares if they're easily copied? We already have military IDs to verify the idenity of the carrier. Given that the 404s carry all the individual vehicle qualifications of the driver, and given that it's not impossible to go through a dozen new sets of 404s in a year as you get student qualifications followed by new qualifications. As pointed out, if it's anything like getting a new ID, you'll be able to get your new set issued 6 months from Thursday.
As far as the laminating, this is the first I've ever heard they're not supposed to be laminated, not that I'm telling you you're wrong, but please show a written reference stating they're not to be laminated.
With regards to the 404s, the law enforcement officer is also entitled to ask for ID, which we already have in a more permanent version. Our 404s aren't an ID, and don't claim to be. That's why we have military IDs (Which, on the other hand COULD use a security update)
So again, who cares?
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aesop081
Guest
a Sig Op said:
DND obviously cares about complying with the CDLA.
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It's not about ID, it's about driver qualifications and DND playing the game like everyone else. D Tn cares very much, this isn't something that PWGSC thought up on their own. This is something that has been in the works for quite some time now.
I do think it's a bit silly to have 2 cards, why not have 1 with all the proper info on it, but that's probably a new thread all together..
I am going to have to eat crow on the laminating however, darn 158 refuses to give me the reference I want ;D I hate it when refs don't match my version of reality!
Wook
I do think it's a bit silly to have 2 cards, why not have 1 with all the proper info on it, but that's probably a new thread all together..
I am going to have to eat crow on the laminating however, darn 158 refuses to give me the reference I want ;D I hate it when refs don't match my version of reality!
Wook
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Likely the Unit tpt reps won't be able to do any data entry. We'll have to petition the Great Wise Master Driver in order to make changes, at his convenience. Just sounds like more empire building.
The paper one is cheap, reliable and works. At least I can tell at a glance a persons qualifications and specialties.
We had the single card concept once before. Remember the one with your Service Number, name, initials and barcode on the front and the magnetic strip on the back? That was to contain all our info. The be all to end all. Fizzled in the starting blocks. Hundreds of thousands of dollars spent and it won't even scrape ice off your windshield.
The paper one is cheap, reliable and works. At least I can tell at a glance a persons qualifications and specialties.
We had the single card concept once before. Remember the one with your Service Number, name, initials and barcode on the front and the magnetic strip on the back? That was to contain all our info. The be all to end all. Fizzled in the starting blocks. Hundreds of thousands of dollars spent and it won't even scrape ice off your windshield.
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The main reason you're not supposed to laminate your 404s, is because they fold out to show anyone the actual specialty, class and restrictions a person holds...at a glance.
As for the new plastic version coming out, it will make things easier as your quals and specifications will be electronically tracked.
All that will show, just like you PDL, the new 404 will only show your class and level of general qual.
My :2c:
iper:
As for the new plastic version coming out, it will make things easier as your quals and specifications will be electronically tracked.
All that will show, just like you PDL, the new 404 will only show your class and level of general qual.
My :2c:
iper:
- Reaction score
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After thinking about it further and reading the tender again...
PROVIDED the system is maintained by, and cards are issued by, a contractor, and exclusively by a contractor, AND DND holds them to their contract as far as the level of service is concerned, it's entirely possible provided the specifications for the system are properly written, that the system would work... keep unit transport reps responsible for entering qualifications, and any time a qualification is entered that would require issue of new 404s, trigger an automatic response in system to print a new card on the contractors end. Send the freshly printed cards out in express post every day, and the cards arrive within a couple of days.
That being said, I briefly read up on the CDLA, which includes compliance with the DLA. Which in turn requires international sharing of driver database information, which in turn would require sharing a list of military qualified drivers with international partners.
PROVIDED the system is maintained by, and cards are issued by, a contractor, and exclusively by a contractor, AND DND holds them to their contract as far as the level of service is concerned, it's entirely possible provided the specifications for the system are properly written, that the system would work... keep unit transport reps responsible for entering qualifications, and any time a qualification is entered that would require issue of new 404s, trigger an automatic response in system to print a new card on the contractors end. Send the freshly printed cards out in express post every day, and the cards arrive within a couple of days.
That being said, I briefly read up on the CDLA, which includes compliance with the DLA. Which in turn requires international sharing of driver database information, which in turn would require sharing a list of military qualified drivers with international partners.
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recceguy said:
Well said.I like being able to go to my sqn rep and get a card printed....I dread the thought of the civilian buracratic system of paperwork, waiting times etc this new card will cause. Empire building and leading change at it's finest.
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404s can change fairly often, so unless they just plan on having a picture, name, SN along with a magnetic strip to read information from the 416s like a debit card, we're just wasting cash.
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aesop081
Guest
dogger1936 said:
Since the idea behind this is to comply with national and international agreements, what would you suggest is done ?
Nothing ?
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CDN Aviator said:
Yes.
Being in a unit that trains on a multitude of vehicles...adding in civilians and new cards just mess's up another system that has worked fine for this many years. While I'm sure having your panelvan cert and any old engineer qualification you had will be great to keep on a fancy little plastic card flying around. However I KNOW half of the troops will crack them off, loose them, scratch the card up bombing around in armoured vehicles (i.e any Mcpl and above can attest to the condition/replacement needs of military i.d's every year...and the headache that occurs.) Suddenly you got troops without 404's and a civilian company dealing with issuing it....which will take forever to rectify whereas right now I can walk down to Cpl whomever and tell him to print off the troopers 404's in about 2 minutes.
When will this army realise were employing way too many civilians as it is and continuing to fund private little ventures such as this.
And yes Virginia that's why I suggest we do nothing. If it ain't broke don't fix it.
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aesop081
Guest
dogger1936 said:
While i agree with most of what you say happens on the ground, the simple fact is that the system is broke, as DND is failing to comply with national and international agreements pertaining to driver liscencing.
And no, i dont have a panel van qual and my 404s are expired. I certainly dont carry the paper 404s when i'm flying.
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When I was on course this summer, a lot of people didn't have the required qualifications for the exercise so they did a quick course a few days beforehand and printed of a new set of 404s for us. Now with this in mind, they probably wouldn't have been able to issue us new cards in time for the exercise.
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aesop081
Guest
JohnTBay said:
When i moved here, the DL office took my previous province's DL and said that my new card would arrive in the mail in 7-10 days. Did i stop driving for those 7-10 days ?
No. I was issued a paper temp DL. It is fair to think that a similar practice would be used by the CF.
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The new MIP is out and on the D Tn2 Site. As of the date they were put on the site it became official. There is a time schedule for the different regions/areas to be completed. Western Area has till Jan 11 to get all of the units processed and confirmed by MSE Safety. This include buying a proper camera for pictures and electronic signature to be on a hard drive. Then supposedly by Mar 11 Western Area gets the newer 404's.
