VC, Medal of Bravery, Star of Courage...Where are the nominations?

[Teddy Ruxpin]

Quote from: marshall sl on Yesterday at 15:49:08
Sources tell us that the 21 Bronze Stars not specified to the four Patricias who were killed in action or the five snipers were distributed only to officers and warrant officers who had served in the theatre.

Say it aint so Joe.....say it aint so....


yup its true the CSM's and OC's  CO and DCO along with the snipers

See my post here for an explanation before we get foaming at the mouth yet again:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/49882/post-450675.html#msg450675

 

[axeman]

  RANT IMO  the bronze stars were handed out to the wrong ppl they were given out  . in a few cases to ppl that never left the camp. that in many ppls opinion truly did nothing mertorious . just their jobs . there are others from that roto that should of gotten them . what about the medics on site of april 17 or those that assisted?  the four fallen soldiers recived them i will not speak ill of the dead as i regarded them as my friends . the FSG CSM OC come on now what mertorious act did they do ? the FSG kept us running but THATS THEIR JOB. nothing more . many other ppl deserved them more then the list that did get them .The fact that no one has said it is stunning .

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

Give your head a shake.  Did you not read the linked post?  The medals - like all US medals - were given out by the Americans, full stop.  Canada has zero in the way of input as to who gets foreign medals...  How often does this have to be said before the disgrunted ranters - axeman - get the point?

The Yanks gave out their Bronze Stars to the chain of command because that's how they do business

Yup, it's stunning... :

 

[Haggis]

Haggis ,
You are right but the higher level awards require so much investigation that everyone ends up knowing.

Yep, seen it myself.  However in bilton090's case it sounds as if he ewas told that he'd been nominated and that he'd not been selected AND the perceived reasons why.  That's not on.

...just lke the Candians and MMM and OMM they get gifted to the ranks of Gen and CWO, no big deal getting one when that is the criteria.

Not all CWOs and generals get the Orders of Military Merit.  The amount annually is limited to 1/10 of 1% of the ENTIRE membership of the CF which includes Reg F, and all classes of Res F less the Supp Res.  These, too, take time.  A former Reg F CWO who I work with was nominated while a member of the Reg F and received it after his release and CT to the Res F. 

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

Captain friend of mine, who was a CFR (MWO) and has almost 30 yrs in, was nominated last year and he was told about it by the guy who nominated him...his CO. He didn't get it but I don't think it was because he found out about it.

 

[Blakey]

Why can the nominee not know? Excuse me if there is an obvious answer to this but, pray tell?
(Surely my last question that was deleted in this thread, was not a threat to national security)

 

[George Wallace]

(Surely my last question that was deleted in this thread, was not a threat to national security)

Surely you have been on this site and read enough to already know, or have a good idea, of what you just asked? 

As for your last question that was deleted:  It was a redundant question that had been asked previously and answered; you just failed to read the answers.


I am curious why you would want to know if you were nominated?  It sounds like an ulterior and purely mercenary motive towards this procedure. 

 

[Haggis]

Captain friend of mine, who was a CFR (MWO) and has almost 30 yrs in, was nominated last year and he was told about it by the guy who nominated him...his CO. He didn't get it but I don't think it was because he found out about it.

Sounds to me like the CO 'buttering him up".  (Why? I have no idea, nor do I care.)  How did it make your friend feel?

Why can the nominee not know? Excuse me if there is an obvious answer to this but, pray tell?

To protect the integrity of the honours and awards system.  It's not up to the nominee or "others" in the nominee's unit (who form the court of public opinon) to determine, in advance or after the fact , that a member should have/could have/would have gotten said honour/award.

Re-read bilton 090's post and then tell me this:  would YOU like to know that YOU were nominated for an award only to find out some months later that you didn't make the cut and have someone who has NO IDEA WHY fabricate a reason for your non selection?

 

[geo]

at present, our honours and awards system is still in peacetime mode and there is a lot of bureaucracy preventing a prompt and speedy determination of circumstances surrounding the validity of recommendations & accuracy of the citation.

Is it a good thing that we haven't had a great need to look into ourselves to make this go faster?

 

[Haggis]

at present, our honours and awards system is still in peacetime mode and there is a lot of bureaucracy preventing a prompt and speedy determination of circumstances surrounding the validity of recommendations & accuracy of the citation.

Many, many times I have nominated or attempted to have a member nominated for an award only to have the request/nomination answered with "we don't reward people for doing their job.  That happens on the 15th and 30th of every month.".  A typically bureaucratic answer indeed!.  In my "Canadian" experience you have to show that the nominee went way, way above and beyond the call in order to stand a snowball's-chance-in-hell of having it go through.

Is it a good thing that we haven't had a great need to look into ourselves to make this go faster?

I think so.  Since bravery/courage honours are still quite rare it means that the level of fightin' and dyin' haven't yet required us to make these honours a routine occurrence.

 

[geo]

Haggis,
While I don't think there is a need for the TF commander to have a barrack box full of medals for his Adjt to pull out in a "need it right this very minute" time line, I think there is room to improve.

If we have to go beyond 6 months from the time of incident, then you have missed the boat... IMHO

(edited for spelling...)

 

[Blakey]

Wow, defensive...
First off:

I am curious why you would want to know if you were nominated?  It sounds like an ulterior and purely mercenary motive towards this procedure.

Just so that we are clear (because lots of folks here don't like to be misquoted here), I didn't say that I would want to know, I asked

Why can the nominee not know?

.

George, no motives here, since I have no knowledge of this "procedure" how would I have any "mercenary" motives towards it?. In any case, I think you might have just taken the question the wrong way, or perhaps I had posed it the wrong way. I'm not that kind of superficial person anyways, medals and accolades really aren't my bag.

*Breather*

Second:

To protect the integrity of the honours and awards system.  It's not up to the nominee or "others" in the nominee's unit (who form the court of public opinion) to determine, in advance or after the fact , that a member should have/could have/would have gotten said honour/award.

Re-read bilton 090's post and then tell me this:  would YOU like to know that YOU were nominated for an award only to find out some months later that you didn't make the cut and have someone who has NO IDEA WHY fabricate a reason for your non selection?

Haggis, thank you for that info.
In reference to you question, to be quite honest, like I said in my reply to George, I'm not too worried about getting slaps on the back and shiny pieces of metal with colorfull cloth.

I do my job to the best of my ability and the satisfaction (at least for me) comes from knowing that I had made a worthwhile contribution to the team. That recognition comes from my peers.
That's just me though, I'm pretty sure that there are people out there that would try to "sway" the proceedings, one way or the other.

Thanks for the responses.

 

[boondocksaint]

I think so.  Since bravery/courage honours are still quite rare it means that the level of fightin' and dyin' haven't yet required us to make these honours a routine occurrence.

I can assure you, as can several other people, that the level of fightin' and dyin' that's being happening over there, is anything but a rarity. That level of combat is the routine occurrence and one that Canadians are excelling at.

In this thread there are actually several argument'scentered around the medals topic, but one of the themes I'm getting is that maybe Canadians haven't done anything 'medal worthy' yet. That we need to grade our selves harder then the Brits and the Americans. That because Hollywood doesn't make movies about us, and Chapters doesn't have any modern books with Canadian war stories in it, then how can Canadians deserve medals?

In some ways we were fortunate that because of our organization, size and familiarity, WE know in detail  the stories of who did what over there. Hopefully they will be recognized back here as well, otherwise a 'thank you' from a comrade will suffice for them. And then everyone else will know their stories as well

 

[KevinB]

Chuck -- you needed to "your Tube" Marks rant and some other stuff...  ;D

 

[Haggis]

I can assure you, as can several other people, that the level of fightin' and dyin' that's being happening over there, is anything but a rarity. That level of combat is the routine occurrence and one that Canadians are excelling at.

My point, should you care to re-read my post in the context of Geo's question, was that the frequency of honours increases with the level of fightin' and dyin'.

In this thread there are actually several argument'scentered around the medals topic, but one of the themes I'm getting is that maybe Canadians haven't done anything 'medal worthy' yet.

Although I am certain that there are many "honourable" acts which have not yet been formally recognized, thankfully we have not yet reached a level in which honours are an occurrence of such frequency as to make the losses of life less significant.

In some ways we were fortunate that because of our organization, size and familiarity, WE know in detail  the stories of who did what over there. Hopefully they will be recognized back here as well, otherwise a 'thank you' from a comrade will suffice for them. And then everyone else will know their stories as well.

It's been an awfully long time since Canada has granted honours for "courage" or "valour" or "bravery" under fire and the system is quite unaccustomed to dealing with this.  Hopefully we get good at it fast so that the significance of the award isn't lost in the passage of time.

Clear 'nuff?

 

[GO!!!]

Many, many times I have nominated or attempted to have a member nominated for an award only to have the request/nomination answered with "we don't reward people for doing their job.  That happens on the 15th and 30th of every month.".  A typically bureaucratic answer indeed!.  In my "Canadian" experience you have to show that the nominee went way, way above and beyond the call in order to stand a snowball's-chance-in-hell of having it go through.

Then why is it that with such apparent ease that CWO's and the LCol and up rank cohort seem to accumulate them?

You can't tell me that what, half of the full Cols in Canada do such an outstanding job that they deserve a medal for it, while it is extraordinarily rare to see any other rank with such medals as the Order of St. John's of Jerusalem, any of the Distinguished Service decorations or the OMM/MMM.

To me, and the great majority of my peers, it very much seems that the medals and awards system applies RHIP to itself quite liberally, and reserves the investigations for preservation of the integrity of the system for everyone else. There seems to be 3-5 medals that appear by virtue of rank, with the bronze stars on Apollo being just the latest incarnation of this.

I think so.  Since bravery/courage honours are still quite rare it means that the level of fightin' and dyin' haven't yet required us to make these honours a routine occurrence.

You'd think that after 40 dead, about 100 wounded and by some counts, 1200-2000 enemy KIA, at least one Pte or Cpl would have distinguished himself among the blizzard of bronze stars. Let's hope their decorations are just hung up in the bureaucracy.

Also, I've never seen anything that would stand up to academic scrutiny stating that the US dictated the allocation of Bronze stars, only justifications like "that's just the way they do business".

 

[KevinB]

J -- some medals are in the pipe.

 

 

[Haggis]

Then why is it that with such apparent ease that CWO's and the LCol and up rank cohort seem to accumulate them?

You can't tell me that what, half of the full Cols in Canada do such an outstanding job that they deserve a medal for it, while it is extraordinarily rare to see any other rank with such medals as the Order of St. John's of Jerusalem, any of the Distinguished Service decorations or the OMM/MMM.

Remember, though, that the Orders of Military Merit are given out for career long acheivements, not on the basis of one isolated incident or task.  That's whay the MSM and MSD are for.

To me, and the great majority of my peers, it very much seems that the medals and awards system applies RHIP to itself quite liberally, and reserves the investigations for preservation of the integrity of the system for everyone else. There seems to be 3-5 medals that appear by virtue of rank, with the bronze stars on Apollo being just the latest incarnation of this.

If junior leaders don't nominate soldiers because they are convinced (as you seem to be) that patronage and careerism plays such a dominant role in the selection process then, of course, junior member will be disproportionately under-represented.  How many nominations have YOU proposed?  How many did YOU put pen to paper for?

You'd think that after 40 dead, about 100 wounded and by some counts, 1200-2000 enemy KIA, at least one Pte or Cpl would have distinguished himself among the blizzard of bronze stars. Let's hope their decorations are just hung up in the bureaucracy.

Half the battle is in making the submission stand on it's own (with detailed photos, maps, witness statements etc.) where little in the way of fact checking and lenghtly investigation is required. 

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

Also, I've never seen anything that would stand up to academic scrutiny stating that the US dictated the allocation of Bronze stars, only justifications like "that's just the way they do business".

Academic scrutiny?  You're kidding right?  This is hardly a peer-reviewed journal.  The bitter puppy myth that has perpetuated amongst OP APOLLO's vets has gone on long enough.  Frankly, it's tiresome and smacks of pique and envy and is founded upon a profound misunderstanding of the awards system.  See MarkC's post here:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/19990/post-132530.html#msg132530

Further, since you mention two specific awards:

Order of St. John's of Jerusalem - this is awarded to those who have assisted the Order of St John (that's right the first aid folks).  It is not a CF honour.

The Order of Military Merit - from the shiny CF Pam:

Commanders of the Order are appointed for outstanding meritorious service while fulfilling
duties of great responsibility. This has been interpreted to mean that only flag and general
officers are eligible to be appointed as Commanders.

Officers of the Order are appointed for outstanding meritorious service while fulfilling
duties of responsibility. This has been interpreted to mean that only officers in the ranks
of Major or Lieutenant-Commander to Colonel or Captain (N) are eligible to be appointed
as Officers.

Members of the Order are appointed for exceptional service or performance of duty. This
has been interpreted to mean that Non-Commissioned Members (NCMs),Warrant Officers,
Petty Officers, and Commissioned Officers up to the rank of Captain or Lieutenant (N) are
eligible to be appointed as Members.

In other words, the OMM is awarded by rank, like it or not.  For example, it is very rare for anyone but a CWO (or CFRed CWO) to be awarded an MMM.

You'd think that after 40 dead, about 100 wounded and by some counts, 1200-2000 enemy KIA, at least one Pte or Cpl would have distinguished himself among the blizzard of bronze stars. Let's hope their decorations are just hung up in the bureaucracy.

The Bronze Star is an American award.  Why on earth would it be awarded for the current actions?  Or is your bitterness over the award of less than two dozen foreign meritorious service gongs over four years ago colouring your opinion?  You have absolutely no idea what awards have been recommended for recent actions, what approval level is required, or what actions they may have been recommended for.  The fact of the matter is that, until comparatively recently, we have not been involved in operations that have merited significant numbers of valour awards (again, valour awards must be distinguished from bravery or meritorious service awards - they're completely different in context).  And yes, I include APOLLO in that blanket statement. 

TR

 

[PPCLI Guy]

You'd think that after 40 dead, about 100 wounded and by some counts, 1200-2000 enemy KIA, at least one Pte or Cpl would have distinguished himself among the blizzard of bronze stars. Let's hope their decorations are just hung up in the bureaucracy.

For the record, there are four 8 1/2 x 11 pages of H&A from TF ORION, from Comds Coin through to more esoteric medals and decorations.  They will all be assiduously tracked, and there is a move afoot to make these so.  I received a not very subtle reminder on Friday that went CDS - CLS - A Comd - Bde staff - CO - me in a single day with respect to a specific person whose performance was noteworthy - and wasn't on that list.  Noteworthy achievments are usually honoured as such, and there are a slew happening every day right now, as modern heroes for an evolving nation are being forged even as we speak.  

We will get there - it just takes time.  

Dave