University Training Plan NCM (UTPNCM) 2005 - 2018 [Merged]

[Melbatoast]

FWIW (and agreeing completely with Transporter about the state of the regulations), my understanding was that MS who take UTPNCM are only automatically promoted to Slt (i.e. given treatment similar to CFR) if they are qualified for promotion to PO2: i.e. if you have the time in rank and course requirements for promotion to PO2, but are lacking only promotion selection to PO2.

I don't believe that was the case - my CoC pushed to get me promoted to PO2 (substantive) before entering the programme in order to get the 1Lt on grad, but on closer inspection I never found any stated requirement beyond substantive MS/MCpl. Definitely agree on the mess of regulations.

 

[luke_l]

The RMC UTPNCM crowd have always gotten Lt from the MCpl rank.  I can say for certain that people in that situation last May all got the simultaneous promotion to Lt, even those with a very new promotion to MCpl prior to selection

 

[ModlrMike]

My understanding, and I could be wrong is:

PLQ or JLC = 2Lt / ASLt
ILQ or SLC = Lt / SLt
ALQ or MWO/CWO = Capt / Lt(N)



*changed to reflect the observation in the post below.

 

[PuckChaser]

I think you just have ILQ and ALQ reversed, but that's my understanding as well.

 

[Shamrock]

I believe other officer generation programs have encountered similar pain.  SCP for MP do not get the simultaneous promotion to Lt, either but I believe DEO do.

 

[Melbatoast]

My understanding, and I could be wrong is:

PLQ or JLC = 2Lt / ASLt
ILQ or SLC = Lt / SLt
ALQ or MWO/CWO = Capt / Lt(N)



*changed to reflect the observation in the post below.

This is not correct per CFAO 11-6 which to my knowledge has yet to be superseded. MS/PO2 in UTPNCM receive simultaneous promotion to Lt. The new student guide references an unpublished DAOD, 5200.

 

[MeanJean]

I dropped by the BPSO office today to do some digging into the CFAOs.  I found out some interesting things...

1) CFAO 11-6 Annex A Para 13 states that UTPMs who have the appointment of MC or hold the rank of Sgt or above will be commissioned to the rank of Lt/Slt. 

2) CFAOs are being phased out and will be superceded by the DAODs.  Pertaining to UTPNCM, DAOD 5002-7 has not yet been published but when it does, it will modify the commissioning directions for UTPs.

So some one jumped the "editing" gun and modified this in the SEM guide to reflect future policies.  As for the "stories" of personnel not getting promoted as they should... the CAF rumor mill at its finest.  I got to see the email that will be circulated shortly to the UTPs, stating to disregard the section in the guide on commissioning. 

Looks like I, and the other MS/PO2s in the UTPNCM program, will be getting our simultaneous promotions to Slt after all!

Thanks, everyone for weighing in on this!

 

[Melbatoast]

Excellent news. It makes sense that those enrolled under the CFAO would be grandfathered, though I suppose it remains to be seen how far back. Thanks for clearing it up.

 

[PuckChaser]

Sigs is getting better, but we're still forced to promote A/L as there's just not enough spots on course. I did see a Cpl loaded on his DL prior to promotion, which is a step in the right direction. Almost guarantees PLQ in a year after promotion. At least that's a workable timeline.

 

[George Wallace]

Sigs is getting better, but we're still forced to promote A/L as there's just not enough spots on course. I did see a Cpl loaded on his DL prior to promotion, which is a step in the right direction. Almost guarantees PLQ in a year after promotion. At least that's a workable timeline.

That is pure BS.  You are placing inexperienced leaders into leadership positions with no trg.


EDIT to add:



I have seen several worse case scenarios of this practice in the RMS Trade where they will promote a Cpl to MCpl without the PLQ and make them a Chief Clerk in a unit.  Not only do they not have the leadership training, they are often not experienced enough to be placed in a CC position.  That is effectively setting that person/those persons up for FAILURE.

 

[hotei]

George, I am going to have to disagree very firmly in both cases.

WARNING: ANECDOTAL EVIDENCE TO FOLLOW

On one hand, I have seen several clerks who progressed to chief clerk, as you stated, who have been phenomenal clerks and who made sure you were entitled to everything you were entitled to, and double-checked your file religiously to ensure you weren't being screwed. All of these clerks were advanced promoted from cpl by the unit.

Likewise, as I came from a trade that is notorious for promoting without quals due to the backlog, and the requirement for jr and Snr NCM/Os. We had people waiting the full two years just to be loaded on their PLQ, despite their desire to be course loaded ASAP.

 

[captloadie]

I think you miss George's point. What you described in your anecdotal evidence should be the bare minimum of how all RMS clerks perform their duties. This does not mean they can progress to be excellent supervisors or Chief Clerks. I have some amazing MSE Op Cpls who can do amazing things with their vehicles, but they have no real aptitude to lead. Sure, they are great at teaching the new guys the tricks of the trade, but they are unable to deal with the administrative/disciplinary issues that greater rank requires.

 

[sidemount]

There are people across the forces (both NCM and Officer) that have no business being in a leadership role. Yet the Army will put them in that position...setting up to fail....yep pretty much....but all that ever happens is that person gets moved around and sometimes put in a place where they can do the least damage (right in the middle of this with a Sgt right now)

Becoming a leader is a fundamental transformation as a person. Its not taught, it is learned.

The amount of people within the army (that's where all my experience is from) that don't want to be a leader, just want to be in control and don't know the difference between the 2 is not good.

And I'm sorry, PLQ really? Some distant learning on military ethos and a few weeks of the 16 steps of battle procedure does NOT teach some one to be a leader.

I tell ya, it was some experience on PLQ being taught some things by a junior officer that was fresh of phase training and had never been in command of troops.......well done "Leadership" school.

 

[Biggoals2bdone]

So it says you need either

A) Letter of unconditional acceptance
B) Letter of eligibility
C) Proof of application from each university (showing the specific degree program) applied to for each MOS ID the member wishes to be considered for under UTPNCM.

I understand A and C but what is B?  and who would you get it from?

 

[Biggoals2bdone]

anything? anyone?

Called BPSOs and they weren't helpful, didn't even know deadlines or anything

 

[DAA]

So it says you need either

A) Letter of unconditional acceptance
B) Letter of eligibility
C) Proof of application from each university (showing the specific degree program) applied to for each MOS ID the member wishes to be considered for under UTPNCM.

I understand A and C but what is B?  and who would you get it from?

Sure, let me take a kick at this one!

Are you sure you are reading that correctly and that is doesn't state "Letter of Admissibility"???  Which form/location/etc are you seeing the information on or at?

I'm thinking "typo" on the form itself or they are probably meaning "Proof of Eligibility for Admission" or something similar.

 

[sidemount]

This is right from the canforgen

4) MEMBERS MAY SUBMIT AN APPLICATION TO THE UTPNCM WITH ONE OF THE THREE FOLLOWING DOCUMENTS: A. LETTER OF UNCONDITIONAL UNIVERSITY ACCEPTANCE B. LETTER OF ELIGIBILITY C. PROOF OF APPLICATION FROM EACH UNIVERSITY (SHOWING THE SPECIFIC DEGREE PROGRAM) APPLIED TO FOR EACH MOS ID THE MEMBER WISHES TO BE CONSIDERED FOR UNDER THE UTPNCM. IF LETTERS OF UNCONDITIONAL UNIVERSITY ACCEPTANCE ARE NOT AVAILABLE AT THE TIME OF APPLICATION, THEY MUST BE SENT DIRECTLY TO DMCPG 5-2 NO LATER THAN 1 JUL 15

and then here

LETTER OF UNCONDITIONAL UNIVERSITY ACCEPTANCE, LETTER OF ADMISSIBILITY, OR PROOF OF APPLICATION FROM EACH UNIVERSITY THAT SPECIFIESS THE DEGREE PROGRAM CORRESPONDING TO EACH MOS ID THAT THE MEMBER WISHES TO BE CONSIDERED FOR UNDER THE UTPNCM,

So it could be a typo.....either way im waiting on University of Ottawa about the admissibility since application for the fall 2015 isn't open until mid september and applications have to be to the BPSO here in Pet by 12 October......not much time at all to get things put together.

 

[Shad4now]

Can anyone confirm if I should have received the "non-selection" message by now?
Thanks

 

[sidemount]

you should have received your non selction message by latest july timeframe.

Contact your local PSO....they will have it.

 

[sidemount]

FWIW University of Ottawa would not do a letter of admissability or eligability.....

Guess I have to wait until OUAC opens for fall 2015 semester.




is it just me or does this years competition seem like its on a very tight timeline?