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Uniforms/Unification (split from King Charles III)

Of course, we weren't when you consider that the Marines do not incorporate the navy but are an adjunct of it.
I feel that many Canadians mis-understand the difference between the USMC - USN relationship. The USMC fights hard for its ideal as a separate service but it also realizes that many in the US military establishment (and in congress) wonder why the US has 2 armies when 1 will do. That's when the USMC goes, "Oh we're part of the Navy so leave us alone!"


An interesting read of Marine Aviation and its employment during the Western Pacific War of 41-45.


It summarizes the experience like this:

Today, retired generals and defense analysts urge caution as the Marine Corps divests major elements of the air-ground team that has served the nation well since 1950. In his 2018 Planning Guidance, General David Berger reminded his Marines that “During World War II, we as a Service, clearly understood that Marines operated in support of the Navy’s sea control mission.” As the Corps refocuses on supporting the fleet in great-power competition and conflict, understanding Marine aviation’s historic role as a land-based, fleet air component may provide instructive lessons.
 
I feel that many Canadians mis-understand the difference between the USMC - USN relationship. The USMC fights hard for its ideal as a separate service but it also realizes that many in the US military establishment (and in congress) wonder why the US has 2 armies when 1 will do. That's when the USMC goes, "Oh we're part of the Navy so leave us alone!"


An interesting read of Marine Aviation and its employment during the Western Pacific War of 41-45.


It summarizes the experience like this:

Today, retired generals and defense analysts urge caution as the Marine Corps divests major elements of the air-ground team that has served the nation well since 1950. In his 2018 Planning Guidance, General David Berger reminded his Marines that “During World War II, we as a Service, clearly understood that Marines operated in support of the Navy’s sea control mission.” As the Corps refocuses on supporting the fleet in great-power competition and conflict, understanding Marine aviation’s historic role as a land-based, fleet air component may provide instructive lessons.
That may be true, but the US military services also have a huge love of adding X capability rather than asking if it’s better utilized in another service.

I get that it is partially for budgetary reasons, but when the USAF, US Army, USMC, and USN have Space components (not to mention the US Space Force), you gotta wonder why there is so much duplication - what would a USMC space person do that a USSF person doesn’t? I’m only half joking when I ask why the USCG doesn’t get into the Space game.
 
. . . I’m only half joking when I ask why the USCG doesn’t get into the Space game.


 
A bit of an aside, and I'm not sure that anyone would dispute this - but I believe it is fairly clear that nobody was a big winner, or even a winner in unification. It was universally poorly received and still manages to affect us to the day, nearly sixty years later.
A case can always be made any new approach. I'm not one to argue the case for unification, but it seems some of our closest allies (US/UK/AUS) have over the intervening years experimented with different approaches to "jointness." While the UK has a joint helicopter force, the squadrons remain in their separate services. Meanwhile, the RAAF punted maritime and tactical helicopter back to the RAN and the Australian Army.

When it comes to our experiment with unification, I think a big part of the problem is that it turned into something that wasn't just about creating a unified force structure with functional commands, but also about eradicating traditions and especially "de-Britification." At least as a child in what was very much an Army household that's what it looked like.

And all of it might have been okay, and worked out just fine if it hadn't been immediately followed by what I'll call the CAF's first "decade of darkness" with Trudeau 1.0. The reductions, scrapping and rust out. The (mostly) abandoning of the nuclear roles, the Army's move south in Germany, scrapping the Bonnie.

It wasn't just unification. It was the dawning of political philosophy that really would have preferred Canada to be part of the "non-aligned" world and looked with disdain on everything associated with the military, our alliances, NATO and NORAD.
 
A case can always be made any new approach. I'm not one to argue the case for unification, but it seems some of our closest allies (US/UK/AUS) have over the intervening years experimented with different approaches to "jointness." While the UK has a joint helicopter force, the squadrons remain in their separate services. Meanwhile, the RAAF punted maritime and tactical helicopter back to the RAN and the Australian Army.

When it comes to our experiment with unification, I think a big part of the problem is that it turned into something that wasn't just about creating a unified force structure with functional commands, but also about eradicating traditions and especially "de-Britification." At least as a child in what was very much an Army household that's what it looked like.

And all of it might have been okay, and worked out just fine if it hadn't been immediately followed by what I'll call the CAF's first "decade of darkness" with Trudeau 1.0. The reductions, scrapping and rust out. The (mostly) abandoning of the nuclear roles, the Army's move south in Germany, scrapping the Bonnie.

It wasn't just unification. It was the dawning of political philosophy that really would have preferred Canada to be part of the "non-aligned" world and looked with disdain on everything associated with the military, our alliances, NATO and NORAD.

My friend, social programs buy more votes than defence programs in Canada. All party's realized that around the same time.

Canadians are generally international skylarks and lay abouts who would 'convene' than take action. We want to be a player, don't want to contribute; and it wasn't always this way, and I cant pinpoint when our perception changed.
 
Loadsa meaty posts on uniforms/unification not strictly dealing with King Charles, so feel free to keep elaborating on these here.

Milnet.ca Staff
 
My friend, social programs buy more votes than defence programs in Canada. All party's realized that around the same time.

Canadians are generally international skylarks and lay abouts who would 'convene' than take action. We want to be a player, don't want to contribute; and it wasn't always this way, and I cant pinpoint when our perception changed.
Don't think we're disagreeing. I'd just argue that it was under PET that the perception really began to change, and maybe under the influence of 60's counter culture and Vietnam. But up until then, I think there was a fairly high degree of political consensus in support of NATO and NORAD and Canada making a significant contribution to both, at least between the Grits and Tories.
 
Since arriving in Ottawa I have been amazed by how dependant most decisions are on the whims or one or two people. Get a stubborn idiot into a key role, and they can cause lots havoc or stall modernization.
CADCC :"All badges must be approved through the L1 and be sold through Canex or available at Clothing stores."

C&E Branch:
the dude your opinion GIF
 
Since arriving in Ottawa I have been amazed by how dependant most decisions are on the whims or one or two people. Get a stubborn idiot into a key role, and they can cause lots havoc or stall modernization.
Is this why it's been taking since mid-March for Ottawa to approve the medical of a healthy 36 year old natural citizen ;) ?
 
I've always seen integration and unification as a two step process.

Integration came first in Aug 1964 with Bill C-90 which integrated the headquarters under a single CDS. Concurrent with that were a number of steps to integrated certain functions such as the heads of the services and some of their staff being absorbed into divisions of the new headquarters and various administrative functions - such functions like postal, padre and medical had already been moving in that direction.

While integration was based primarily on cost savings, I've never been a big fan of integration. I am of "jointness" but IMHO adding a new super headquarters above an already existing structure of three headquarters which already have just enough staff to manage their business and logistics and administration won't reduce the size of the lower headquarters but will inevitably add further layers and a general inflation of the whole structure. On paper it seems to make sense but in practice it doesn't. It's a different process than an existing headquarters that contracts various subdivisions but let's face it, in a military context you can't get rid of the need for each of the army, navy and air force and the admin and log functions needed to make them work. It's basically an additive and not subtractive process which not only adds a super headquarters but also all those agencies that constitute what would become the "purple" force.

Unification I never understood back in the day. Forget the uniform issue. That was merely an attempt to give a visual confirmation that we had ceased to exist as three services and were now one. (Perhaps it was even an attempt to prevent the skittles parades we see now and to prevent the "purple" trades from seeking their own uniform like the special forces have done)

What didn't make sense was the unified command and element issues that came about. Typical was Mobile Command which not only constituted the three Canada-based brigades (but strangely not 4 CMBG) and not only the army's helicopters, but also its CF-5 fighters (presumably because their sole capability was ground attack) and also the small lift transport buffalos - effectively the army now ran an air force. The navy's air and aviation fleet made much more sense than the army's. Things like Training command made little sense as well and was completely oblivious to the fact that each of the army, navy and air force had very different training requirements. The story goes that the whole unification boondoggle was that Hellyer had been in the air force in WW2 and was remastered to army when there were personnel shortages. He was forced to retake basic training and felt that was an absolute waste of time. The whole concept of unification apparently arose out of that fact (and in the minds of many, his political ambitions to replace Pearson and a that grand gesture with defence would be his gateway)

The fact that the hard elements of unification (as opposed to the soft, uniforms and buttons and bows issues) haven't worked out is, in my mind, borne out by the fact that DND/CAF is spending more and more resources on a constipated central administration system that is delivering ever declining defence outputs. Tactically we talk mission command. Administratively we do anything but by taking many of the necessary powers and enablers away from subordinate commanders on the basis of perceived cost savings through centralization and consolidation. Unfortunately while the CAF has accomplished the roll back on the soft buttons and bows issues it continues to fail to resolve the hard issues of its basic structure.

🍻
Mobile Command also gained the Air Reserve, which consisted of 6 squadrons of DeHavilland CSR-123 Otters stationed in St. Hubert (2 squadrons), Downsview (2 squadrons), Winnipeg and Namao (1 squadron each). There were also 4 Reserve Support Squadrons (RSS) which handled personnel administration, recruiting and training, medical and finance, and 4 Regular Support Units (RSUs). The Otters were generally used as light tactical transports, and also could do paradrops, aerial photography, and medevac. I don't think they were viewed as being militarily useful aircraft as far as the CAF was concerned.
 
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