UNAUTHORIZED DISPOSAL OF COMBAT UNIFORMS AND EQUIPMENT

[Kurhaus]

Thanks, just curious about the actual wording...

Of particular relevance to people dressing up and playing soldier...

"(a) wears a uniform of the Canadian Forces or any other naval, army or air force or a uniform that is so similar to the uniform of any of those forces that it is likely to be mistaken therefor,"

I'd interpret that to mean that you're perfectly allowed to wear surplus clothing until it reaches a point where you could reasonably be mistaken for a member of the Canadian armed forces...

Red Green wearing a surplus parka, not a crime.

Airsoft player wearing a full uniform, crime.

A thought... perhaps if we were to actively prosecute people for it, having them fined, we could solve budgetary problems?

Just a point but you neglected the most important part of CCC Section 419:

"419. Every one who without lawful authority, the proof of which lies on him,

(a) wears a uniform of the Canadian Forces or any other naval, army or air force or a uniform that is so similar to the uniform of any of those forces that it is likely to be mistaken therefor,"

Even the Reg/Res force members who are issued this kit, by this definition, are not allowed to wear their CAPAT while playing paint ball, unless it is a DND sponsored event (i.e. Adventure Training etc.)

 

[Thompson_JM]

Personally Ive got a set of Surplus O.D.'s that I would and Do use for paintball.. When I'm playing Paintball I'm on leasure Time, and the last thing i want is everyone staring at me while I'm wearing CADPAT... especially at Sgt. Splatters which is an indoor range Downtown T.O.

IMHO the need for an effective Temperate Camouflage pattern become greatly diminished when one is indoors in a darkened warehouse.


Cheers
    Josh

 

[brihard]

OK, so does removing rank and the velcro flag differentiate it enough that it won't be considered 'impersonation' of the CF? Generally at a paintball or airsoft palce, camo clothing is so common that people will just assume you picked up your issued CADPAT surplus, as even the real stuff can be found these days. Added to that, very few people outside the military can actually tell the difference between issue, and the Frontenac stuff. So where exactly is the line drawn?

 

[CEL]

My name is Scott Collacutt owner of CEL Surplus. I retired in May 2000, and have been running a military shop since. Over the past few years I have had the misfortune of receiving some sensitive items disposed of by the CF. Every time something was received in error it was returned without any harm to the CF or my business. For the past 2 years I have been receiving CADPAT clothing, the first time I came across it I contacted supply (R&D) and was told that it was a clothing article and that it was part of the surplus contract like the rest of the surplus I receive. CADPAT clothing is not a controlled item like so many believe, the Government of Canada agencies CTAT and the Controlled Goods Registration Program do not recognize CADPAT as an controlled item and have stated that it is a military policy only. LCol. J. MacKay of Edmonton Supply personally stated this in a letter dated November 24, 2004 written to CEL Surplus in retraction of previous comments mistakenly made by the CF to CEL Surplus. According to the CGCM (supply catalogue) CADPAT clothing does not have to be destroyed (Demil classification "A") and is classified non CTAT or Controlled (classification "N") only the CF's own CANFORGEN dated August, 2002 stated that all CADPAT clothing was to be shredded. Thank you for the chance to explain part of my side of this story. Once the smoke clears I will be glad to share more .....

 

[DJ_Overload]

CEL ~ thanks for claifying... Like I said I have been out of the clothing world for a while now... well supply in general to be exact... anyways just wanted to take a sec to say thanks.

 

[foxtwo]

Just curious, what would happen if a Cadet of any element got their hands on a pair of real, look-alikes or altered. If they were wearing their eppilate and headdress with it, would it still be considered impersonation?

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

That may well be true, but unless there is a cadet identifier on the uniform (usually a brassard), it is technically illegal.  Cadets are civilians.

From the Criminal Code - just to be clear:

419. Every one who without lawful authority, the proof of which lies on him,

(a) wears a uniform of the Canadian Forces or any other naval, army or air force or a uniform that is so similar to the uniform of any of those forces that it is likely to be mistaken therefor,

(b) wears a distinctive mark relating to wounds received or service performed in war, or a military medal, ribbon, badge, chevron or any decoration or order that is awarded for war services, or any imitation thereof, or any mark or device or thing that is likely to be mistaken for any such mark, medal, ribbon, badge, chevron, decoration or order,

(c) has in his possession a certificate of discharge, certificate of release, statement of service or identity card from the Canadian Forces or any other naval, army or air force that has not been issued to and does not belong to him, or

(d) has in his possession a commission or warrant or a certificate of discharge, certificate of release, statement of service or identity card, issued to an officer or a person in or who has been in the Canadian Forces or any other naval, army or air force, that contains any alteration that is not verified by the initials of the officer who issued it, or by the initials of an officer thereto lawfully authorized,

is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction

 

[Uberman]

A couple of things are interesting about this section of the Code:

1. The offense has a reverse onus,this is a rarity in the criminal law as it flies in the face of presumption of innocence. This one requires the accused to be able to show that he/she had some lawful authority to wear the uniform. Real tough to do unless you're a member of a military organization. Also, as with any reverse onus, the accused's right to remain silent is, for all intents and purposes, gone.

2. The offense applies not only to Canadian Forces uniforms but to any other naval, army or air force uniform or any uniform that is likely to be mistaken therefor. This means that wearing a U.S. uniform or any other nationality's military uniform, would be illegal. So the offense isn't primarily aimed at obtaining/using/wearing Canadian issue uniforms but one of wearing any military uniform. So it's safe to assume that this particular law doesn't care were you got the uniform.

3. The offense, insofar as those who wear parts of the uniform, who believe that removing something as technical as taking off a rank insignia or an identifier would mean that they are not technically wearing a CF or other uniform would be caught by the "likely to be mistaken for". This test would be an objective one using the reasonable person on the street. So the question is, "would a bunch of civillians likely mistake my clothing for being a military uniform." Also, and more importantly, this portion of the offense only requires that the outfit being worn "is likely to be mistaken for". This means that the offense is made out when the Crown prosecutor can establish, on a balance of probabilites that joe lunchbox would mistake what is being worn as a military uniform. This takes away the "beyond all reasonable doubt " and replaces it with the civil test of "balance of probabilities".

I've never encountered this charge before. It seems like the type of charge that would only be laid where the community becomes alarmed and there is actual confusion. A good example would be wear someone obtains a military discount on lodging. 

 

[PViddy]

Just curious, what would happen if a Cadet of any element got their hands on a pair of real, look-alikes or altered. If they were wearing their eppilate and headdress with it, would it still be considered impersonation?

Foxtwo, i have said this before but you may want to do some CATO research.  cadets are not authorized to wear CADPAT or any form of look-a-like.

cheers

PV

 

[condor888000]

Sir, do you have a referance for that? I've been looking high and low and can't seem to find one.........

 

[PViddy]

yep, no prob.  I have come across before but i will do some digging again and get back to you (at work right now  )

cheers

PV

 

[foxtwo]

Foxtwo, i have said this before but you may want to do some CATO research.   cadets are not authorized to wear CADPAT or any form of look-a-like.

cheers

PV

Wow... if you're accurate, then I know a LOT of people that are gonna be an a sticky situation! :-\

 

[Gunner98]

Clothe the Soldiers tell us that if it ain't marked as such it ain't real CADPAT, as stated earlier many non-IR coated, non CADPAT look-alikes exist.  Even Peacekeeper/CP Gear/Wheeler's do not cross the line toward pretending to be real CADPATTM.  Just because Canex sells it surely does not make it official DND Gear.  Anymore than the Army surplus comes from the Army.  Companies like Fellfab in Hamilton pay big bicks to use the TM trhough contracts with DND .http://www.fellfab.com/canada/military/index.shtml

Also See Backgrounder http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/Newsroom/view_news_e.asp?id=341:  Excerpt below.

"The patterns and technical data are patent and copyright protected. Also note that the Department of National Defence has acquired the trademark for CADPATTM. A number of Canadian companies have been successful in meeting the rigorous technical specifications for CADPATTM on specific textiles using both Canadian and overseas printing capabilities. The Department of National Defence closely controls CADPAT with all companies agreeing to non-disclosure stipulations for third parties and close control of swatches."

For more information on The Clothe the Soldier Project visit http://www.army.forces.gc.ca/cts

 

[PViddy]

After going through the CATO's and the QR (cadets) i have found that my mater of fact staement i made in an earlier post may have been misleading.  if you check the references which i have posted it appears that the wearing of CADPAT clothng and CADPAT look-a-like clothing is very much up to the CO of the unit....i think.

Every order appears to have a loop hole.  If anyone else would like to add to this, please do.  I am pretty sure their is an order against the wearing of, but i have not found it yet.  Cadets will note the CATO about wearing orange safety vests with any other camouflaged clothing other than the old OD's...however the golden phrase is "as required".  My unit does not allow the wearing of any type of combat clothing other than the, i don't wanna say old , OD's.  Anything constructive to be added would be of help.

regards

PV

 

[condor888000]

I seem to recall hearing from my CO that there was an ERCO out about the wearing of CADPAT/digital camoflage patterns. I'll have a look around and see if I can find it. Only thing is it'd only apply to Eastern even if I do find it.

EDIT: English half of the site is down and I'm not so good with French so it might be a bit before I can find/not find the ERCO.

 

[PViddy]

Yea, i saw that their was an ERCO.  I am pretty sure their is a CRCO or CRCSO written somwhere around here (as i am from Ontario), when i find it i will post.  All i know is it is strongly discouraged around here.

PV

 

[condor888000]

The sites up but I can't seem to find the order. I'll keep looking........darn ERCOs.................

 

[foxtwo]

if you check the references which i have posted it appears that the wearing of CADPAT clothng and CADPAT look-a-like clothing is very much up to the CO of the unit....i think.

According to a CI, my CO 'cleared them' meaning it was okay for us cadets to wear them on FTX's. Keep in mind that 80% of the CADPAT uniforms we have are Peacekeeper...

 

[medic65726]

OMG.....someone should call the the "Royal Canadian Air Farce" as I'm sure someone would have issues with how they are dressed for the "chicken cannon" sketch at the end.
Just trying to lighten the mood.

 

[Gunner98]

Peacekeeper is not a DND contractor, their disruptive pattern uniforms are not CADPAT, they are not created from the patented design, nor are they IR design.  If your CO/CI wants you to wear pink tutus it would be the same effect.  I say again just because Canex sells it that does not make it DND approved clothing (bus driver jackets and parkas have been sanctioned in dress manual.)

Legend has it that DND (or members thereof) have provided the Air Farce with proper dress and accoutrements.  If you are an avid fan of the show, you will have seen their uniforms evolve over time (including the switch from OD combats to "disruptive" pattern.

Whenever VIPs from the GG to PM to MPs visit units, they are often encouraged to fit in by dressing similarly.  Don't forget people such as Wayne Rostad and Ron MacLean are or have been recent Honorary Colonels of CF formations. Having the Air Farce using army surplus kit to immitate us, would be worse than dressing them properly and getting some interesting PR.