Turmoil in Libya (2011) and post-Gaddafi blowback

[Ex-Dragoon]

1.  Armour plate.  Yes.  Provides some protection to the gunner.  Better than having no armour plate, right?

2.  C-16?  Sure, why not.  But the last time the Navy asked for a piece of shiny army kit (NODLR) we got smacked down by a 1 Leaf in green.  Can you imagine the hooplah if the Navy deployed an army weapons system operationally before the Army did? 

NS

We use .50 on ocassion to "fire across the bow" could we use the C16 to do the same? WHat about during night ops, its hard for a ship to miss that burst of tracer fire. Is the C16 fitted with tracers?

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Can you imagine the hooplah if the Navy deployed an army weapons system operationally before the Army did? 

NS

Actually, we have before: First Gulf War. We got Javelins in service real quick - and before the Army, to replace the Blowpipes that could not do the job (as demonstrated a few years before in the Falklands).

 

[Old Sweat]

Actually, we have before: First Gulf War. We got Javelins in service real quick - and before the Army, to replace the Blowpipes that could not do the job (as demonstrated a few years before in the Falklands).

You are absolutely correct. And there was no hoopla. I believe in fact that a British army training team sailed from Halifax with the ships to train the embarked air defence gunners. I don't think it is worth making any fuss about the semantics over the finer details of who owned what. The fact was Javelin was deployed under naval command.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

You are absolutely correct. And there was no hoopla. I believe in fact that a British army training team sailed from Halifax with the ships to train the embarked air defence gunners. I don't think it is worth making any fuss about the semantics over the finer details of who owned what. The fact was Javelin was deployed under naval command.

OGBD and OS- not quite.

Javelin missiles were never own by the Navy- they always belonged to and were operated by 119 AD Bty pers (read Army AD Artymn) , deployed on HMCS ships- obviously placed under Command of the Navy.

The Blowpipe missile system was quickly replaced in Aug 90 for Gulf War 1 by an emergency buy of Javelin GL aiming units and missiles, following a fairly disasterous missile camp in Gagetown where about 1 in 2 Blowpipe missiles malfunctioned.  Then BGen Baril (Comd CTC) witnessed all of this, got on his new "cellphone" (it was about the size of a shoe box) and called the CDS directly and 3 days later, 3 x C-130 loads of missiles and aiming units arrived in Shearwater from Belfast, along with a UK IG team.

The UK IG team sailed with the Task Group as far as Gibralter to provide training supervision of the live fire camp at sea (which provided a book full of lessons all on it's own).

I "might" have had a front row seat at all of this...

 

[Old Sweat]

Thanks for the clarification. I knew the Brit team sailed as far as Gibraltar. Re the Blowpipe, I saw the first round fired in Canada and my comment "Holy F..., I thought that SOB had thundered in for sure," as the first stage fired and we waited for the second stage to fire was recorded for posterity. My post was not to down play 119 Battery; it was to show how we ignored hat badge politics and got on with the job in a crisis.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

OS
Believe me, there was more than enough hat badge politics to go around during op friction.

Mobile command vs the navy

Artillery vs other regiments and arms

And even the ever popular bird vs steam gunner politics

I saved all of the message traffic covering a 4 month period.  It makes fascinating reading.

I have watched probably 400 blowpipe and javelin missiles fired in my career.  It was exciting each and every time, as you literally had no idea what would happen.  I have seen everything from second stage misfires to detonations on arming to a missile cartwheeling across Centre Lake in Pet.  That one even drew ooohs and aahhs from both the IG team and Shorts tech rep.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

SeakingTacco, I thought the original post mentioned "deployed" by the Navy before the Army. And that was the case with the Javelin, regardless of who "owned" them. But it is just a matter of semantics, the real point is when any of us needs something for an operation, the fact that it has not yet been in regular service is not a bar to getting it.

BTW, the hat badge politics you refer to makes perfect sense. After all, the operation was called Friction.

 

[old medic]

Apache helicopters to be sent into Libya by Britain
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/may/23/apache-helicopters-libya-britain

Britain and France are to deploy attack helicopters against Libya in an attempt to break the military stalemate, particularly in the important coastal city of Misrata, security sources have told the Guardian.

In a significant escalation of the conflict, the Apaches – based on HMS Ocean – will join French helicopters in risky operations which reflect deepening frustration among British and French defence chiefs about their continuing inability to protect civilians.

Apaches, which are being used in counter insurgency operations in Afghanistan, can manoeuvre and attack small targets in relatively built-up areas. Heavily-armed Apaches and French Tiger helicopters are equipped with night vision equipment and electronic guidance systems.

Gaddafi forces have shed their uniforms, are using civilian vehicles and hiding armour near civilian buildings, including hospitals and schools.

The decision to deploy the helicopters is a clear recognition that high-level bombing from 15,000 feet cannot protect civilians who continue to be attacked by rocket and mortar shells. It brings the Nato offensive much closer to the ground at a time when Britain and other Nato countries are insisting they have no intention of sending in troops.

However, the helicopters could be vulnerable to hand-held rocket propelled grenades and even rifle fire.

Hospital officials said two people were killed and several wounded during Monday's fighting in Misrata. Later, heavy explosions outside the city were heard, lasting about an hour. Reuters news agency quoted a rebel spokesman as saying that forces loyal to Gaddafi also shelled the rebel-held town of Zintan and moved troops close to the mountainous region bordering Tunisia, intensifying operations on the war's western front.

Britain and France clearly hope the use of attack helicopters, and revealing the intention to use them, will deter pro-Gaddafi forces and assuage Libyan rebels who have been demanding more effective military action from Nato countries. The sight of Nato forces actually on the ground would be strongly opposed by most Nato countries, including the US and those Arab countries in favour of the air campaign against Gaddafi's forces.

Foreign secretary William Hague, attending an EU meeting in Brussels, said: "We are very much behind the intensification of the military campaign and so is France. We certainly agree with all our partners that it is necessary to intensify the military, economic and diplomatic pressure on the Gaddafi regime."

Alain Juppe, France's foreign minister, confirmed that Paris has dispatched a dozen helicopters to add greater strike force to the campaign against Muammar Gaddafi in Libya. He said that the 12 Tiger and Gazelle helicopters sent from Toulon on May 17 would enable "us to better adapt our ground attack capacity with more precise means of striking."

"Our strategy is to step up the military pressure in the weeks ahead while pushing at the same time for a political solution." ..........

Strike helicopters in Libya is within UN mandate: France
The Associated Press
Date: Monday May. 23, 2011
http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/World/20110523/france-libya-110523/

BRUSSELS — France and Britain will deploy attack helicopters in Libya as soon as possible, the French defence minister said Monday -- a move that would allow their pilots more precision but also expose them to greater risk.

Gerard Longuet said the helicopters would be used to target military equipment such as Libyan tanker and ammunition trucks in crowded urban areas while causing fewer civilian casualties.

Longuet said he discussed the plan with British military officials and they were "exactly on the same wave length."

The use of attack helicopters would appear to mark a new strategy for NATO, which has relied on strikes by fighter planes and seen that result in a stalemate on the ground.

Nimble, low-flying helicopters have much more leeway to pick targets with precision than high-flying jets. But they also are much more vulnerable to ground fire. The alliance has had no military deaths since it first started enforcing a no-fly zone on March 31.

Longuet said France would essentially use Gazelle helicopters, which have been around for some 40 years.

"It is an old machine but fully adapted to the situation," said Longuet. France also can use the Tigre, a modern helicopter gunship.

In airstrikes using fighter planes, the alliance fears collateral damage can be too great against a foe that can hide in urban areas or mix up with civilian traffic.

"We had to give ourselves the means to strike without hitting civilians," Longuet said.

NATO is operating under a U.N. mandate that authorizes the use of force -- but not ground troops -- to protect Libyan civilians. Forces loyal to Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi have been responsible for attacks on civilians, and he has shown no inclination to cede power.

Longuet and French Foreign Minister Alain Juppe said the use of the military attack helicopters would fall within the U.N. mandate.

A French military spokesman said Sunday a French amphibious assault ship, Le Tonnerre, had sailed from Toulon, France, last week. The French daily newspaper Le Figaro reported Sunday that the Tonnerre was carrying 12 military helicopters and sailing for the Libyan coast. Longuet would not confirm the number of choppers on board.

 

[The Bread Guy]

This from Postmedia News:

Two Canadian soldiers in Italy were under medical observation Wednesday after they walked away from a car crash that killed an Italian fighter pilot.

The Department of National Defence said the two Canadians were unharmed in the accident.

The accident happened a little after 9 p.m. Tuesday about 100 metres outside the entrance to the Trapani-Birgi airbase where Canada's air force for the Libyan mission is stationed, the department said.

Local Trapani newspaper Telesud reported Wednesday that the two Canadian women were in a car that collided with a Ducati motorcycle. Telesud reported that 33-year-old Francesco Rinciari, a sergeant in the Italian air force, was killed in the accident.

On Wednesday, Canadian Forces spokesman Brig-Gen. Richard Blanchette expressed his condolences to Rinciari's family ....

Here's the Telesud story (a TV station, not a paper - here's a link to the 25 May newscast, where the story starts around 9:18 into the newscast).  Also, I'm not sure senior NCO's (which is what a suttufficiale is) are pilots in the ITA Air Force.

Condolences, nonetheless, and hopes for a full recovery on the part of the Canadians involved in the accident.

 

[The Bread Guy]

This from Embassy - highlights mine:

A Canadian frigate stopped and boarded a ship off the coast of Libya, but then let the vessel go despite the fact it was ferrying a large amount of arms and explosives to the rebel movement fighting Moammar Gaddafi’s regime.

The revelation, stemming from a video posted on NATO’s website on May 24, has some experts fearing Canada and the military alliance are picking and choosing how they apply the UN-mandated arms embargo—and effectively allowing the ongoing Libyan civil war to continue.

The video, which was also posted on YouTube follows the men and women of the HMCS Charlottetown in early April as they stop a tugboat in international waters near the Libyan port of Misrata. The Charlottetown has been patrolling in the Mediterranean since April and is Canada’s major contribution to enforcing the UN arms embargo.

In the video, the Charlottetown’s captain, Craig Skjerpen, says he has received information that the ship—flying the flag of the Libyan rebels and appearing in the video jam-packed with people—is carrying weapons.

The Canadians subsequently send a boarding team that uncovers what the video’s narrator describes as “lots of weapons and munitions on board,” including “small ammunition to 105mm Howitzer rounds and lots of explosives.”

However, when the Canadians relay the findings up the chain of command to NATO headquarters, they are ordered to let the tugboat go without confiscating the arms.

When asked to explain why NATO chose not to enforce the resolution in this instance, a NATO official who asked not to be named said “obviously it’s a fairly fine line.”

NATO says it does not consider internal movements between Libyan cities to be a breach of the arms embargo at sea, especially between Misratah and Benghazi, two rebel-controlled cities that the alliance says has fairly frequent maritime traffic now ....

Relevant para from UNSR res'n 1973 (2011), attached:

.... Calls upon all Member States, in particular States of the region, acting nationally or through regional organisations or arrangements, in order to ensure strict implementation of the arms embargo established by paragraphs 9 and 10 of resolution 1970 (2011), to inspect in their territory, including seaports and airports, and on the high seas, vessels and aircraft bound to or from the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, if the State concerned has information that provides reasonable grounds to believe that the cargo contains items the supply, sale, transfer or export of which is prohibited by paragraphs 9 or 10 of resolution 1970 (2011) as modified by this resolution, including the provision of armed mercenary personnel, calls upon all flag States of such vessels and aircraft to cooperate with such inspections and authorises Member States to use all measures commensurate to the specific circumstances to carry out such inspections ....

and from UNSCR 1970 (2011), also attached:

.... 9. .... all Member States shall immediately take the necessary measures to prevent the direct or indirect supply, sale or transfer to the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, from or through their territories or by their nationals, or using their flag vessels or aircraft, of arms and related materiel of all types, including weapons and ammunition, military vehicles and equipment, paramilitary equipment, and spare parts for the aforementioned, and technical assistance, training, financial or other assistance, related to military activities or the provision, maintenance or use of any arms and related materiel, including the provision of armed mercenary personnel whether or not originating in their territories, and decides further that this measure shall not apply to:
(a) Supplies of non-lethal military equipment intended solely for humanitarian or protective use, and related technical assistance or training, as approved in advance by the Committee established pursuant to paragraph 24 below;
(b) Protective clothing, including flak jackets and military helmets, temporarily exported to the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya by United Nations personnel, representatives of the media and humanitarian and development workers and associated personnel, for their personal use only; or
(c) Other sales or supply of arms and related materiel, or provision of assistance or personnel, as approved in advance by the Committee;

10. Decides that the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya shall cease the export of all arms and related materiel and that all Member States shall prohibit the procurement of such items from the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya by their nationals, or using their flagged vessels or aircraft, and whether or not originating in the territory of the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya ....

 

[GAP]

240 missiles dropped by Canadian pilots in Libya: DND
8:58 pm, May 25th, 2011
Article Link

KRIS SIMS, PARLIAMENTARY BUREAU | QMI AGENCY

OTTAWA -- Canadian pilots flying CF-18 fighter jets in the NATO mission over Libya have dropped 240 laser-guided missiles, but the targets cannot be revealed because of security concerns.

The department of national defence released several statistics and totals related to the United Nations-sanctioned mission Wednesday.

Canadian Forces have flown 324 "strike sorties" - jet flights that destroy targets - since the mission began in March.

There are 600 Canadian Forces soldiers involved in the operation, flying seven CF-18s, two Auroras, three refuelling planes, one Sea King helicopter and serving aboard the HMCS Charlottetown.

Allied countries are providing air support to Libyan rebels who have been trying to topple dictator Moammar Gadhafi since February.

NATO has been increasing the pressure on Gadhafi recently, bombing the port of Tripoli.
More on link

 

[vonGarvin]

There are 600 Canadian Forces soldiers involved in the operation, flying seven CF-18s, two Auroras, three refuelling planes, one Sea King helicopter and serving aboard the HMCS Charlottetown.

What?  No sailors, airmen or airwomen?

 

[GR66]

This from Embassy - highlights mine:
Relevant para from UNSR res'n 1973 (2011), attached:
and from UNSCR 1970 (2011), also attached:

The revelation, stemming from a video posted on NATO’s website on May 24, has some experts fearing Canada and the military alliance are picking and choosing how they apply the UN-mandated arms embargo—and effectively allowing the ongoing Libyan civil war to continue.

NATO says it does not consider internal movements between Libyan cities to be a breach of the arms embargo at sea, especially between Misratah and Benghazi, two rebel-controlled cities that the alliance says has fairly frequent maritime traffic now ....

This sure seems to suggest that the reason the shipment was allowed to go through was because it was an internal movement of arms within the territory of Libya (by sea from Misratah to Benghazi) rather than arms being imported (through the blockade) into Libya.

If that is true it sure seems like a case of poor and misleading reporting of the incident and paints both Canada and NATO in an unfairly negative light.  Internal movement of arms and ammunition through the territorial waters of Libya to my mind would be no different than a truck convoy of arms an ammunition driving between two rebel held towns.  Nothing in the UN resolution says that the rebels are to be prevented from moving arms and ammunition within their own territory, only that member nations are to prevent the export of arms and ammunintion INTO Libya.

 

[observor 69]

Canada looking to extend mission in Libya
Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper said Friday he expects broad support for extending Ottawa's participation in the NATO-led mission in Libya when parliament debates it in June.

"It will be debated in June," he told a press conference at the end of a Group of Eight summit in France.

"We will be looking for an extension to our mission," he said. "We've had good, strong support across parties in parliament for this mission. I would hope now that we continue to have it."

"I think significant progress has been made," the prime minister added. "The rebels have sustained their gains in the east of the country, and I think there continues to evidence that the power of the Kadhafi regime continues to be degraded."

Harper pointed to Russia's dramatic change of tone in calling for Libyan leader Moamer Kadhafi "to go" as encouraging.

Moscow had previously criticized the air strikes on Kadhafi's forces as they try to quash a pro-democracy rebellion.

Given this international consensus, "I would hope that would encourage parliament to continue to support the actions of the Canadian forces which we're very proud as part of the international effort," Harper said.



© 2011 AFP

http://www.expatica.com/fr/news/french-news/canada-looking-to-extend-mission-in-libya_152492.html

 

[NavyShooter]

What?  No sailors, airmen or airwomen?

"Soldiers first"....anyone can be given a rifle and be told to stand a post.

 

[57Chevy]

Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper said Friday he expects broad support for extending Ottawa's participation in the NATO-led mission in Libya when parliament debates it in June.

"It will be debated in June," he told a press conference

Canadians from coast to coast to coast, as they say, have a vested interest in the Libyan mission. And Harper recognized that when he committed Friday to consult Parliament on his wish to extend the Canadian military mission in Libya beyond the three-month limit approved by the Commons in mid-March.

“We had unanimity before,” Harper told CBC. “I don’t know that we can get that again. I’d obviously welcome that. I think all of the reasons all parties agreed to go into Libya are still present. I think we should be encouraged by the success.”

With his majority, Haper doesn’t have to ask the House of Commons for approval, but it’s the right thing to do.

full article...
An extended Libyan mission
Staff/The Cape Breton Post/May 30, 2011
http://www.capebretonpost.com/Opinion/Editorial/2011-05-30/article-2543882/An-extended-Libyan-mission/1

 

[CougarKing]

Major defections from Qaddafi loyalists to the rebel side.

link

Over 100 Libyan army members defect from Gaddafi

ROME (Reuters) - Eight Libyan army officers appeared in Rome on Monday, saying they were part of a group of as many as 120 military officials and soldiers who defected from Muammar Gaddafi's side in recent days.

The eight officers -- five generals, two colonels and a major -- spoke at a news conference organised by the Italian government, which is one of a handful of countries that has recognized the Libyan rebel movement fighting Gaddafi as the legitimate representative of the Libyan people.

Libyan U.N. ambassador Abdurrahman Shalgam, who has also defected from Gaddafi, said all 120 of the military personnel were outside Libya now but he did not say where they were.

Earlier, Al Arabiya television said 120 Libyan officers had arrived in Rome. The Libyan ambassador to Rome, who has also defected from Gaddafi, said only the eight present at the hastily called news conference were in the Italian capital.

The eight officers said they defected in protest at Gaddafi's actions against his own people, saying there had been a lot of killing of civilians and violence against women.

They said that Gaddafi's armed forces' campaign against rebels was rapidly weakening.

British-based Libyan opposition activist and editor Ashour Shamis said he was aware of reports from opposition sources that eight high ranking Libyan officers including four generals had defected and were in Rome.

"This will create its own momentum against Gaddafi, increasing the pressure on him," he said. He said he had no word on the defection of as many as 100 officers.

Noman Benotman, another opposition activist who works as an analyst for Britain's Quilliam Foundation think tank, said he had heard that many officers had defected, without elaborating.

Every individual defection was the result of a combination of factors, he said, but the latest group had been spurred largely by tensions arising from the appointment of what he called newcomers to senior positions in the security services.

The behavior of these men, many of them relatively youthful Gaddafi loyalists in their mid-30s, had stirred anger and dismay among the army's officer ranks, who regarded their actions as overbearing and brutal, Benotman said.

"The army officers feel they are being watched all the time. They feel uncomfortable because they feel a lack of trust. So at the first chance of defection they took it," he said.

He added that many of the newly appointed senior security officials were Gaddafi relatives.
...

 

[observor 69]

LE DEVOIR.com

La mission canadienne en Libye se poursuivra

Le premier ministre Stephen Harper a annoncé hier, en marge du sommet du G8 à Deauville, en France, qu'il va prolonger la mission canadienne en Libye. Les Forces canadiennes ont d'ailleurs commandé 1300 bombes guidées au laser, qui coûtent environ 100 000 $ chacune, pour la suite des opérations.

Selon l'Ottawa Citizen, les Forces canadiennes ont commandé 1300 bombes guidées au laser dans les dernières semaines pour remplacer les 240 utilisées et faire des provisions pour la suite de la mission. Advenant que la commande concerne des bombes Paveway II GBU-12 au même prix, la facture atteindrait 130 millions de dollars.

Le Canada a déployé six chasseurs CF-18 et un autre CF-18 de réserve pour cette mission, en plus de deux appareils de patrouille maritime CP-140 Aurora, trois avions ravitailleurs en vol (deux hercules et un CC-150 Polaris) et une frégate de la marine canadienne. Près de 600 militaires canadiens sont déployés, alors qu'ils étaient 150 au premier jour de la mission.

Le gouvernement n'a toujours pas dévoilé la facture de cette intervention. Mais en plus du coût des bombes, du logement des militaires en Italie et de leur déplacement, il faut ajouter que chaque heure de vol d'un CF-18 coûte environ 12 000 $ au trésor public. Un coût élevé qui comprend l'essence, l'entretien des avions au retour des missions, ainsi que les salaires des pilotes. Un CF-18 brûle de 1200 gallons (4542 litres) de carburant par heure.

Voir reste de l'article au lien:

http://www.ledevoir.com/politique/canada/324306/la-mission-canadienne-en-libye-se-poursuivra#haut

 

[The Bread Guy]

This from NATO:

Statement by the NATO Secretary General on the extension of the mission in Libya

NATO and partners have just decided to extend our mission for Libya for another 90 days.

This decision sends a clear message to the Qadhafi regime: We are determined to continue our operation to protect the people of Libya. We will sustain our efforts to fulfil the United Nations mandate. We will keep up the pressure to see it through.

Our decision also sends a clear message to the people of Libya: NATO, our partners, the whole international community, stand with you. We stand united to make sure that you can shape your own future. And that day is getting closer.

 

[57Chevy]

quote:
This decision sends a clear message......
Our decision also sends a clear message.......
....And that day is getting closer.

And if that day doesn't get closer, someone else will be sending more clear messages ;D