Transition to Municipal Police Force

[Haggis]

As to that straight - to - federal recruit class they’re running, I glance at that and it appears to be entirely (this time around, at least) for their protective operations in Ottawa. The job posting also explicitly stated a preference for CAF veterans. I’ll be curious to hear what their recruit pool looks like, and if it becomes a nucleons for a longer term more sustained alternative hiring path right into federal. Though RCMP recruits going right to federal or protective from Depot definitely isn’t unheard of already.

When I read that job posting, it seemed a bit like the old RCMP Special Constable Security Guard program for the Embassies many years ago. Hiring to fill a niche capability without scavenging the field force of regular members. I believe a lot of the Specials were bridged to regular members.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Right, sorry. I’ve been exhausted all week and didn’t think that through.

New daddy brain, they are relentless

 

[brihard]

When I read that job posting, it seemed a bit like the old RCMP Special Constable Security Guard program for the Embassies many years ago. Hiring to fill a niche capability without scavenging the field force of regular members. I believe a lot of the Specials were bridged to regular members.

Looked to me like not just guarding but also VIP close protection. I read the job ad and they’ll be full fledged cops the same as any other RCMP member.

 

[Ostrozac]

I think the Ontario/Quebec thing was to describe where the Dominion Police were focused, not where Federal Policing is focused.

I was thinking a little bit of both, actually. The pre-1920 force, but also given that since today, 61% of Canada’s population, a majority, live in Ontario or Quebec, I’d expect something like 61%ish of the organized crime and other federal responsibilities to be in those two provinces — maybe even higher with the headquarters functions being in the NCR.

In Canada we probably will always need a mix of locally recruited police forces and ‘at large’ constabularies with members that are posted in and out — but aside from the territories and maybe PEI I think that every province can and should fill that role with their own provincial police force, as the OPP and the Sûreté currently do. And an RCMP with 500 or so members on contract policing would look very different from the current model which has something like 12,000 members on such contracts.

 

[Booter]

When I read that job posting, it seemed a bit like the old RCMP Special Constable Security Guard program for the Embassies many years ago. Hiring to fill a niche capability without scavenging the field force of regular members. I believe a lot of the Specials were bridged to regular members.

We ve done that several times. The difference here being as Brihard said they are calling them regular members and paying them the same while training them different.

I absolutely cannot wait until federal policing is cleaved off from the organization.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I assume he can read the Judge's mind ...

B.C. premier says spat over Surrey police force 'no longer up for discussion'​

VICTORIA — British Columbia Premier David Eby says a court challenge by the City of Surrey over being forced to continue the transition to a municipal police service "will not be successful."

Eby said Tuesday that Surrey Mayor Brenda Locke "fought a good fight" in attempting to move the RCMP back to its police force of jurisdiction, but the decision to move ahead with a municipal force has been made by his government and is no longer up for discussion.

Surrey filed a petition to the court this month, asking for a judicial review of the government's directive earlier this year to continue its transition to a local police force, claiming the province doesn't have the authority to force the change without enough funding to support it.

Solicitor General Mike Farnworth introduced changes to the Police Act on Monday that he said would provide "finality" for the residents of Surrey on the future of police services in the city.

The legislation, if passed, would ensure that once a transition plan is approved by the provincial government, the municipality has the legal obligation to complete the transaction.

It would also allow the minister to determine next steps in the process if the municipality was unable to produce a transition plan or if it failed to implement the plan that the government had approved.

At an unrelated event in Victoria, Eby said the municipality's legal challenge is a waste of taxpayers' money and the two sides need to sit down and figure out a way forward.

"I think there is a moment here for us to regroup with the city, to reset. It is very clear that the city will not be successful in any legal challenge," he said.

The city has said it would face a shortfall of $314 million over a 10-year period if it was forced to complete the transition to the Surrey Police Service, while the province has offered $150 million to aid the shift.

Eby said it's important that Locke raised concerns about implementation costs and the province will be "a good partner to address those issues."
"But whether or not we're moving forward to a municipal force is no longer up for discussion," he said.

"We are moving forward to a municipal force in Surrey and for everybody's benefit we need to just get on with that work. And I look forward to working with the mayor on that."

The official Opposition said the government's approach to the conflict "has plunged the situation into chaos."

BC United public safety critic Mike Morris said in a statement that a lack of transparency from the New Democrats means the Opposition doesn't have the necessary information to assess whether transitioning from the RCMP to a municipal force is a sound decision.

"It's unreasonable to expect us, the Opposition, to validate the NDP’s ongoing mishandling of this issue when we lack the relevant facts, which is why we will be voting No to the legislation," he said.

B.C. premier says spat over Surrey police force 'no longer up for discussion'

VICTORIA — British Columbia Premier David Eby says a court challenge by the City of Surrey over being forced to continue the transition to a municipal police service "will not be successful.

www.timescolonist.com

 

[Haggis]

We ve done that several times. The difference here being as Brihard said they are calling them regular members and paying them the same while training them different.

I absolutely cannot wait until federal policing is cleaved off from the organization.

I looked at the Embassy gig when it was posted. Talked to an RCMP recruiter who told me it would be a dead-end job. No advancement out of that capability (opportunities within were also limited) and no potential to become a regular member. He did try to sell me on the regular member career stream, though. I tried the regular member route and screened out for (pre-laser surgery) eye sight.

Had I known then what I know now....

 

[mariomike]

The problem I find with this entire Surrey police force and I have been there a number of times I can't wait to get out of there. Just like Brampton and I have lived there as well so glad I left when I did.

Regarding Surrey being "just like Brampton".

The Brampton Police Department dates to 1873, when it was created to replace policing from Chinguacousy.

When the Regional Municipality of Peel was created on January 1, 1974, Peel Regional Police was formed. It was created by combining the former police services of Mississauga, Port Credit, Streetsville, Brampton, and Chinguacousy.

If Surrey is "just like Brampton", I wonder if there has been any communication between the two cities on the subject of which "level" of policing is preferred.

For the last half-century, Brampton policing has been "Regional".

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Solicitor General Mike Farnworth introduced changes to the Police Act on Monday that he said would provide "finality" for the residents of Surrey on the future of police services in the city.

Actually it seems that the residents of Surrey who could be bothered to vote were happy to maintain the RCMP as the final option. The only people unhappy were the newly minted SPS and the NDP.

 

[CBH99]

We ve done that several times. The difference here being as Brihard said they are calling them regular members and paying them the same while training them different.

I absolutely cannot wait until federal policing is cleaved off from the organization.

Curious, but what do you think the path forward is going to look like for federal policing?

(The RCMP being the national police force makes it seem like the rational place for federal policing? To my 'non-member' and 'very much not in the know' simple mind, anyway...curious on your thoughts on who would take up the mantle of federal policing? Also curious to hear why cleaving it off from the organization will be beneficial?)

 

[Spencer100]

Curious, but what do you think the path forward is going to look like for federal policing?

(The RCMP being the national police force makes it seem like the rational place for federal policing? To my 'non-member' and 'very much not in the know' simple mind, anyway...curious on your thoughts on who would take up the mantle of federal policing? Also curious to hear why cleaving it off from the organization will be beneficial?)

My two cents....Because one really cares...LOL

RCMP needs a top to bottom overhaul. Top management is too political. There is too much to go to.
RCMP should just be Federal level. Or a whole new federal level dept. and RCMP can go back to policing the North and territories etc.

My overall solution to most of the governing problems in this country is the same. It is the solution we never use (I think because it works we don't try it) Is the concept of Subsidiarity. Local is best,

Subsidiarity is a principle of social organization that holds that social and political issues should be dealt with at the most immediate or local level that is consistent with their resolution.

and

"the principle that a central authority should have a subsidiary function, performing only those tasks which cannot be performed at a more local level"

 

[lenaitch]

The concept of subsidiary worked better when society was more locally contained to a small cohesive area (village, etc.) where all of the players involved in a particular issue, the impacts and ramifications were local. Also, when the rules were locally defined. A cow stolen from a local farm by another local was dealt with locally; sometimes rather harshly and arbitrarily.

As society became more mobile, fluid, complex and diverse, it became increasingly difficult to adequately handle issues at the local level. Even with centrally written rules, the capacity of a local community to effectively deal with complex issues is limited. In the early days of law enforcement, a strong back and a truncheon were often enough to deal with most crime. Now, communities need access to a wide array of specialized skills in law enforcement.

Layer onto to that, how is 'local' defined? Should Grise Fiord NU Digby NS have stand-alone police services? What happens when they need services beyond their capabilities? This could be the role of a more 'senior' level of law enforcement, but should they have primary responsibilities themselves or simply exist to be a 'break glass' type of assistance service. Is 'local' a town? township? county? province?

I don't know enough about the federal law enforcement business to suggest how it should be accomplished. If all of the contract responsibilities were to be removed from the RCMP, it would be left as a small northern territorial front line service plus a federal responsibility; which seem particularly incompatible, or at least not particularly complimentary. This doesn't even address whether all the provinces could afford to take on the full spectrum of law enforcement on their own, including the really pricy stuff.

 

[brihard]

This doesn't even address whether all the provinces could afford to take on the full spectrum of law enforcement on their own, including the really pricy stuff.

Just addressing this point narrowly, is that even the federal government’s problem? If the provinces or municipalities have gotten too used to artificial subsidy of their policing because they’re with the RCMP, but policing is squarely a provincial responsibility, that’s something the federal government could probably gradually walk away from. It doesn’t make much sense that the federal government doesn’t directly subsidize municipal policing in New Westminster, Regina, Brockville, Fredericton or Halifax, but they do for Burnaby, North Battleford, or Moncton.

I find the Quebec policing model interesting, with explicitly regulated levels of service delivery, where police services MUST provide certain services or capabilities, and MUST go higher for others, depending on their size. It prevents small departments from trying to take things on that are beyond their reach and halfassing it, and it ‘bakes in’ to the provincial police and a couple major municipal services the expectation that they’ll provide certain supports and services to smaller organizations. There are probably some takeaways here for any province that might choose to move away from the Mounties.

 

[Spencer100]

The concept of subsidiary worked better when society was more locally contained to a small cohesive area (village, etc.) where all of the players involved in a particular issue, the impacts and ramifications were local. Also, when the rules were locally defined. A cow stolen from a local farm by another local was dealt with locally; sometimes rather harshly and arbitrarily.

As society became more mobile, fluid, complex and diverse, it became increasingly difficult to adequately handle issues at the local level. Even with centrally written rules, the capacity of a local community to effectively deal with complex issues is limited. In the early days of law enforcement, a strong back and a truncheon were often enough to deal with most crime. Now, communities need access to a wide array of specialized skills in law enforcement.

Layer onto to that, how is 'local' defined? Should Grise Fiord NU Digby NS have stand-alone police services? What happens when they need services beyond their capabilities? This could be the role of a more 'senior' level of law enforcement, but should they have primary responsibilities themselves or simply exist to be a 'break glass' type of assistance service. Is 'local' a town? township? county? province?

I don't know enough about the federal law enforcement business to suggest how it should be accomplished. If all of the contract responsibilities were to be removed from the RCMP, it would be left as a small northern territorial front line service plus a federal responsibility; which seem particularly incompatible, or at least not particularly complimentary. This doesn't even address whether all the provinces could afford to take on the full spectrum of law enforcement on their own, including the really pricy stuff.

I think many of those points make my argument. Most day to day policing is very local. But if you talking say organized crime that is when the next level comes in. The provincial force comes. International cross-border crime is at the national level. Etc. That is the very concept of subsidiary.

 

[brihard]

I think many of those points make my argument. Most day to day policing is very local. But if you talking say organized crime that is when the next level comes in. The provincial force comes. International cross-border crime is at the national level. Etc. That is the very concept of subsidiary.

You’re bang on the much of the day to day stuff is heavily localized often to the point of being within small neighbourhoods or small, known groups of associates. Some of the best community policing, relationship building, and cultivation of human sources comes from police who are able to really invest themselves in being part of the community.

Some of the bigger picture challenges come with provision of relatively rarely needed but resource and training intensive operational support capabilities. Some are more obvious- tactical, K9, basic forensics… Others, less thought of until needed; a small community might rarely if ever need a crisis negotiator, or a wiretap warrant writer and internet monitoring room, or or a public order unit, a beefy criminal intelligence section, or the ability to deploy and sustain a professionally run critical incident command post… and that’s all to say nothing of really back end support and really specialized niche capabilities. This is where policing arrangements that leverage regional, provincial, or, rarely, national capabilities can be invaluable. A community won’t get to know ahead of time what it might need when the bad night happens.

Al that to say- devolution of policing authority more and more locally comes with both strengths in the most common day to day stuff, but also presents risks and limitations that must be addressed for ensuring the availability of critical but uncommon resources on an exceptional basis. You just can’t be certain, if operating on that basis, that you won’t be third in line one day when there are only two of something. In our profession we use the expression ‘risking it out’ a lot… More than we should.

 

[Booter]

Curious, but what do you think the path forward is going to look like for federal policing?

(The RCMP being the national police force makes it seem like the rational place for federal policing? To my 'non-member' and 'very much not in the know' simple mind, anyway...curious on your thoughts on who would take up the mantle of federal policing? Also curious to hear why cleaving it off from the organization will be beneficial?)

The RCMP or some new org would as you suggest would have to take up the torch. I don’t want to paint broad strokes on Canadian federal policing compared to other countries. I’d hate to disparage the federal members. Brihard has done a good job explaining the complexity of the situation- including the issues with supplying policing to the territories etc.

I will say that the rest of us are tired of talking about federal policing. I left that lifestyle and stream very quickly because I joined to be a cop.

After that they can have everyone that’s squirrelled themselves away in HQs for decades.

One step at a time.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I will say that the rest of us are tired of talking about federal policing. I left that lifestyle and stream very quickly because I joined to be a cop.

A sad reality, it seems.

 

[Booter]

A sad reality, it seems.

It’s just a very different job. I like 911 and the front row to the show.

Having people in the wrong stream or forcing them to do both really doesn’t serve either well.

 

[brihard]

It’s just a very different job. I like 911 and the front row to the show.

Having people in the wrong stream or forcing them to do both really doesn’t serve either well.

Yup- and this applies to every level of policing, I think. Your good fraud investigator might not be too keen on traffic enforcement. Your front line member might be brilliant at spotting drug trafficking indicia, but have zero interest in being a warrant writer. The member who just can’t deal with mental health calls might have a fantastic eye for forensic evidence. It takes all sorts.

 

[CBH99]

This doesn't even address whether all the provinces could afford to take on the full spectrum of law enforcement on their own, including the really pricy stuff.

The really pricy stuff?? (I'm assuming you mean high cost density for a specific capability?)

What would be an example if the really pricy stuff? (In the context of what the RCMP brings to the table)