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The return of MITCIP? -(or some form thereof).

mdh

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Although this is still sketchy information I have heard from a couple of sources that some form of MITCIP may be returning to the reserves.  Has any one heard the same thing? There was a a thread on this site (Mark C.?) that suggested some new form of RESO was also coming back allowing reserve officers access to regular force phase training. Any one else have any information on this?
 
A discussion which bears on this question was recently conducted in the Infantry forum thread "Reg Force Equivalency for RPC".  The thread describes in some detail the changes made to the reserve officer training system over the past few years, along with the pros and cons of those changes.  I have not heard about any prospective changes to the "new" system, though I could be mistaken.  Consequently, someone else out there might have a better answer. 

Regards
 
Hello RCPalmer,

Yes I know the thread you are referring to and I that's why I am following up on it. I heard it at our parade last Thursday night that MITCIP was being resurrected, and it reminded me of that previous discussion.  Again just wondering if there's anything to it, cheers, mdh
 
My somewhat jaundiced view of the current DP system is that MITCP is all that we have - and nothing close to RESO (sigh)

 
I think the current system is something of a hybrid between the two - which apparently satisfies no one. 
 
For reference, I made a fairly detailed comparision of RESO, MITCIP, and RAOTP in the previously mentioned "Reg Force Equivalency for RPC" thread.

In the case of the Reserve Army Officer Training Program (RAOTP), the DP system sought to deliver a regular force type of training in a reserve friendly package, all in the spirit of "one army, one standard".  Though this was the intent of the program, the powers that be, to the best of my knowledge, have decided that these reserve courses are not equivalent alternatives to the regular force ones (not that I necessarily blame them).  While I am not keen on the two class system of reserve officers that existed when the RESO/MITCIP program(s) were in place, I must admit that I was a little disappointed when I lost the opportunity to take regular force courses midway through my training.  However, that would have been irrelevant had the army followed through with its intent of delivering one standard of training to both the regular force and the reserves.
 
Hello PPCLI Guy,

Just curious as to the reason for the "jaundice", cheers, mdh

PS RCPalmer, excellent summary of the issues between old RESO/MITCIP and the RAOTP
 
mdh said:
Hello PPCLI Guy,

Just curious as to the reason for the "jaundice", cheers, mdh

I guess it because I have seen too much change for its own sake.  Moreover, I have long contended that RESO (and ISCC when we had it) was the saving grace of the Reserve Infantry.
 
PPCLI Guy said:
I guess it because I have seen too much change for its own sake ...

One of my favourites was when MITCP had a Young Officers' Tactics Course ... and then did away with it ... just as the Reg Force was introducing a tactics course for ... junior officers ... sigh ...

And, yes - in my humble, personal opinion the premise (I refuse to flatter it by calling referring to it as "rationale") for doing away with RESO was flawed from the get-go (i.e. as it was explained to me: suggesting that RESO didn't produce an equitable number of reserve CO's ... but maybe, just maybe overlooking how many RESO-trained offrs had gone Reg Force ... ?)

Either it's one team, or it's not.  "Divide and conquer" only builds empires when it's applied to the en.
 
We should be careful about talking about the "powers that be". I don't think this was a Regular Army initiative, at least not in the beginning. As far as I know, the changes to the Res Officer Trg profile were done, to a great extent, as a result of pressure from the Army Reserve via the Area Comds. The point raised was that the training needed to be broken down into "chunks" so that the Res officer candidate who had a job and could not get away all summer, could take as few or as many blocks as he had time for. The Inf School and LFDTS worked diligently to develop something that would fit the bill (and not take 20 summers to produce a Lt) but inevitably this left a trg delta between the Res product and the Reg product. In our Bde submission on this issue, we accepted the delta, as long as it was clearly identified. We did not accept a "lower standard"-that is not the same thing at all, IMHO. There is only one standard for any PO/EO. The issue is that the Res will learn fewer of them in a formal setting. We also supported the idea of Area or Bde (but not lower...)-controlled "OJT" for officers to cover the delta, using the Area Standards Dets that are now in all the Res CBGs (we have three regional reps in ours, pls a det HQ coloc with our Bde G3 Branch).

I agree with PPCLI Guy that RESO was excellent, and much to be desired. It should probably still exist for those who can do it, but the problem was(at least when I was in the Res) that it created two distinct "classes" of officers, with MITCP being seen as inferior. Perhaps we are better organized and more mature now, I don't know. Given the critical shortage of officers in our Bde, I welcome the new system as "the greatest good for the greatest number". Cheers.
 
I was intrigued by MITCP because it sounded like a more accessible training system for people with full time jobs - er someone like myself for example.  ;)  Was this the case? cheers, mdh
 
PBI,

You are, as usual, correct.  This was a Reserve based initiative, and the development work was done at LFDTS by Reservists.  The intent is good, I'm just not sure that we acheved it.  As to living with a system that provides "the greatest good for the greatest number", I tend to agree, although it is important to acknowledge that this may not produce a "number of the greatest".

When you get back I will probably be hitting on you for insight etc into the theatre, as it appears that I will be there in Aug - although sadly not in your job.  I was speaking to my replacement yesterday and he is still gunning for your position - and is guaranteed not to get it!

Dave
 
As someone who came up through the RESO program in 90/91, I thought that the old RESO/MITCIP program actually worked well for the Reserves.  The dual entry stream offered flexibility to COs and prospective officers.

I watched RESO slowly dwindle in numbers in the mid-90s and I think that this was partly due to having the costs of the program devolved to the units.  In years prior the costs associated with RESO were borne by the Army, but once they were devolved to units I noticed that RESO nominations dwindled (I was working as a District HQ G3 IT at the time).  When I went through units could afford to nominate several officers in the hopes that they would at least get two or three at the end.  RESO was also somewhat unpopular with some units because they saw RESO officers as "temporary."  MITCIP guys tended to be established in the community while RESO officers were university students and therefore somewhat mobile.  RESO also had a fairly high attrition rate during training.  If a unit only had one or two candidates they could often have both fail.  There was also some resentment about RESO officers "jumping ship" to the Regular Force.  Once again, if the costs of RESO were borne by the Army I think that there would be less hesitation and resentment on the part of the units.  Give the units the opportunity to send six candidates in the hopes of getting two or three by the end. 

I thought that the older system worked.  As a young RESO officer I served under and alongside MITCIP officers and there were never any real problems.  MITCIP officers tended to be more mature and had often come from the ranks which made up somewhat for the reduced training that they received.  Having both available to the unit made for a healthy mix.  I've been away from the Reserves for a little while, but my impression is that the new system satisfies neither group of potential reserve officers (university students and established people).  I think that if RESO is brought back as an Army program it would do well.  Since the benefits of RESO were somewhat spread around the Army (officers transferring to other units or to the Regular Force) then spread the cost around as well. 

Cheers,

2B

 
As posted by myself in "Reg Force Equivalency for RPC" back in december:

"Through to 2001, MITCIP was the alternative training program for those officers who could not attend regular force training through RESO.  It consisted of 4 courses.  BOT(Basic Officer Training) 1 and 2 were considered equivalent to phase one or BOTP and were together 4 weeks long.  BAOT (Basic Army Officer Training) equivalent to phase two or Common Army Phase (CAP) was two weeks long.  The phase 3 infantry or RPC equivalent was known as BCT (Basic Classification Training) and was six weeks long.  All told, this meant that a reserve infantry officer would be trained in 12 weeks, normally spread over two summers under MITCIP. 

Under the current training program instituted in 2002, known as RAOTP (Reserve Army Officer Training Plan), an officer conducts BOTP (5 weeks), CAP (5 weeks), and RPC (8 weeks or 44 training days), totalling 18 weeks of training generally split over two summers. Additionally, the MITCIP training scheme focused on the "armoury floor" aspects of being a reserve officer (Acting as an RSO, platoon adminstration, etc), while RPC focuses on the essential aspects of training identified in the DP system  (For RPC they consist of "Fire Platoon Weapons", "Command a Platoon in Offensive Ops", "Command a Platoon in Defensive Ops", and "Command a Dismounted Platoon Fighting Patrol".  Of course, those subjects were covered to some degree on BCT as well.     

So to answer your question, MITCIP and the RAOTP are similar in the sense that they are modularized training, but the material covered, the time allocated and the nature of the assessment, are all quite different.   

The purpose of the DP system was to establish common training standards between regular force and the reserve force.  By characterizing training objectives into essential, supplemental and residual, it allows for the reserve force to offer courses that cover the essential aspects only, leaving the door open to make up the training at a later date, through a "delta" course, to become qualified to the regular force standard.

As for the current training system not "cutting the mustard", it really depends on what one is comparing it to.  The current system, RAOTP offers over 30% more training time than MITCIP (18 vice 12 weeks).  Furthermore, RPC focuses only on those essential platoon commander learning objectives (I know my OC wasn't too impressed when I showed up in his company requiring additional training to become an RSO, whereas MITCIP did teach that).  Compared to regular force training however, their is a difference (9 week CAP, 50 day phase 3). 
"

Fair comment on my use of a cop out like "the powers that be".  I am sensitive to the fact that the pressure for this change may have come from the reserve side of the house.  Please bear with me on my long post, I do have a point.

To to clarify my description of MITCIP, yes it was split up into 2 week blocks.  BOT 1 and BOT 2 and BAOT were each two weeks long.  BCT was also subdivided into three two week blocks (BCT 1,2 and 3).  Keep in mind however that if a person only did one two week block per year, it would take six years for them to become MOC qualified.

RAOTP courses can also be broken down into blocks.  As of this year, the Infantry School has stopped offering the 5 week reserve BOTP. Candidates are now required to do a reserve NCM BMQ with a five day leadership package added. Reserve Brigades almost exclusively offer this course as a weekend package.  CAP (Common Army Phase) can be taken as in three two week blocks as well (two and a  half really).  Lastly RPC (Reserve Platoon Commander's Course) can be taken in four two week blocks.  In this case, to take CAP and RPC in two week blocks at a rate of two weeks per year would take seven years, with BOTP being taken over the weekends in an candidate's first year.  Of course, this process could be accelerated by taking more blocks in a year.

These programs are civilian career friendly in the sense that they are modularized training, but a prospective officer with a busy career would still have to commit large amounts of time to their training (possibly jeopordizing their livelyhood), or spend a number of years as an untrained officer.Whether we are talking about RESO, MITCIP or RAOTP, this is the reality. To speak to the high attrition of RESO candidates, I would assert that there is was a balancing effect between the high training failure rates in RESO, and the number of MITCIP officer candidates who simply never finished their training because they could not find the time. 

Consider the demographics of the reserve cadre of junior officers (I hesitate to "spit ball" here but I believe that my generalizations are illustrative. Feel free to contradict me on them).  I will assert that the of the untrained officers that sign on in reserve units, 1/2 are either university students or for some other reason, able to dedicate time to long courses (self employed, flexible job, etc), and the other half have careers, that consequently prevent them from taking such courses.  The university students could take regular force courses, or simply take their "Blocks" back to back. Taking courses of these type of courses one block at a time though, can be very discouraging and many people who train in this way do not complete their training.  To take the example of the Reserve Infantry Platoon Commander's course in 2003 (here I am not guessing), of the 80 or so candidates only about 10% (perhaps 8 nationally) were actually taking it one block at a time, excepting medical RTU's or training failures who chose pick up where they left off. The remainder were there (or at least tried to) for the duration.  So by this point in training, the demographic has shifted significantly in favour of the "young" crowd. 

Next, consider that the "university student/flexibly employed/young" group (as has been mentioned by others here) has tended to "jump ship" to the regular force, apparently leaving their reserve units in the lurch.  Personally, I like to see that as more of a natural transition that should be encouraged, it is all "one army" after all (though the issue of who pays for that officer's training is a valid one. Perhaps units could be re-imbursed for trained officers that they send to the regular force). A RESO trained officer could transition to the regular force fairly easily, while an RAOTP officer, though the jury is still out on this, must repeat the bulk of his training.  Clearly, this a prime example of a waste of valuable, and scarce training resources.  In my mind, the army as a whole would be better off training members once (officer or NCM).   

Suddenly, my point emerges.

If the intent of the DP system is followed in the case of RAOTP and it is possible for reserve officers to make up the training "Delta" to become qualified to regular force standards, then the system is ideal.  Training is not repeated for those who want to transition to the regular force, the system is modularized to keep the door open for "mature" officer candidates, and most importantly, it creates a uniform standard of training for reserve officers. To the best of my knowledge though, this intent is not being followed through.  The party line appears to be the courses such as RPC+delta training does not equal regular force phase three and that the course must be repeated. 

To summarize, if the "delta" can truly be made up then RAOTP system is great.  If not, then regular force training should be again offered to those reserve officers who have the time. 

Too bad, the plan was great, but we don't seem to be following through.   
 
RC Palmer, good summary. 
The present system of BOTP and CAP produces an officer lacking critical trg, such as instr techniques and conduct of conventional range.  The current changes to RAOTP is supposed to address these shortfalls, but only time will tell (and make it more comparable to PLQ).  The advantage of BOTP is that it can be done outside the Summer, as well as having an early CAP allows these graduates to go on BCT trg.  For those that can't meet the deadlines and are avail all summer, they can go on BOTP and late CAP, but their career is delayed since the next BCT crse will have to be taken in the next Summer. 
The old RESO programme did address some shortfalls, but became a form of officer welfare and did not enhance the retention since most officers quit after University.  Most officers on MITCP did the 3 x 2 week blocks back to back, as well as most took the BCT with their RESO counterparts (as least in the Comms world).
 
Just to clarify a couple of points,
As I have stated, I believe RAOTP offers a significantly higher standard of training than MITCIP, that is part of the reason why it was adopted.   Firstly, there is substantially more training time (18 vs 12 weeks).   Secondly, the training focuses only on the essential aspects required of a platoon commander, that is to say the leadership and tactics.   I understand, Rushrules, that the things that were taught on MITCIP that are not taught on RAOTP such as method of instruction and run a conventional range are important too, but in my mind, they lend themselves much better to on the job delta training than platoon offensive ops.   So, essentially the MITCIP program tried to cover more cover more material in less time than RAOTP.

As for the difficulties you have brought up with RESO, I do not agree with your assertion that it was a form of "officer welfare".   True, a large number of RESO candidates might leave their units after graduating university, though usually not before doing some time as a platoon commander.   Keep in mind that many of those officers simply tranistioned to the regular force.   Also, keep in   mind that a student graduating university is in a transitional phase of life.   He may end up taking a job in another city, or a job in which reserve employment is impossible.   In my mind this so-called loss is structural to the kind of candidate being recruited (who also have the best chance of finishing their training), and and it is still a benefit to the army if they go to the regular force.

 
Good stuff from RC Palmer!

If I recall my time as an NCO/WO in the Res, we NCM types generally (but not exclusively) had higher respect for the RESO officers, since they seemed keener, fitter, and took the business more seriously than most MITCP officers seemed to. (Keep in mind that my experiences were based on service in a single unit, commencing 30 years ago, so I cannot claim statistical accuracy). However, while I have since heard from Res COs in the intervening years that RESO was a "haemorrage" of good youung officers, I have to say that in the eight years I was in the Res, we must have put a dozen guys through RESO. Of these, two that I know of joined the RegF. The rest went on to civilian careers. Hardly an "officer welfare program". I think that much of the resistance to RESO was from officers (particularly older officers and some COs) who were not comfortable with what they perceived to be a "two class" system, with the RESO guys considering themselves to be the upper class. As well, I believe there was a feeling (in those days of a much greater distance and hatred between the two components than we still experience today) that these subbies had become "contaminated" or "tainted" with "RegF ideas".

I do know that on occasion as an NCO and even as a WO I found it a bit daunting to be serving under a young RESO Lt who was better trained than I was. Sometimes it could intefere with the traditional "father-son" relationship as they knew more than we did, and they knew it. Most were good about it, but you got the odd a**hole who wanted to make the point. Of course, being NCOs we had other ways to sort out people like that.....

just one point of clarification: what do we mean here when we say that the units would pay for such training? Trg delivered by LFDTS at CTC is National trg-as far as I know.In our Bde at least, we pay only associated travel and TD costs-the wages are not taken from the unit for any course delivered outside the Bde. LFWA does not yet use RCVMS (or at least, did not when I was deploying last Aug...) so maybe that is the basis of my confusion.

On the issue of the amount of time it takes to qualify a Lt, I think that the Army is actually trying to do the best it can (in its ponderous way...) but the sad fact is that we cannot tailor the IT system to meet every individual's need, nor should we. The fact is that the great majority of officer candidates in the Res are the same young, keen energetic people with time on their hands that they were when I joined the Militia 30 years ago. The number of fully employed "two kids-and-a-mortgage" officer candidates may be slightly greater now than it was then, due to an upward shift in the age demographic in Canada, but as far as I can tell it is not even a significant minority. And, anyway, who do we really want the majority of our junior officers to be? People with time to commit to the unit, or people who have to struggle to balance their several committments? Not to say that we should have no older types (I was one when I commissioned in the RegF) but I think that history has shown us that in all armies it is the young keen and fit we need at that level. The hope must be that as they grow up, the Regt becomes a part of their life, and they build it into the pattern of their maturing lives, rather than that they try to "bolt" it onto their existing demands.

Cheers.

Cheers.
 
As usual, PBI, a well-argued point.  As one of the older demographic of officers, I must confess to engaging in a little bit of "bolting" onto existing commitments myself right now.  Although it's interesting to note that there does appear to be a something of a generation "gap" in the units I have been part of with a lot of very young officers in their late 20s and early 30s and almost a total absence of officers in their late 30s and 40s - rounded out with a few officers in their fifties to late fifties (often as CO or DCO). Purely an anecdotal observation, cheers, mdh
 
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