• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

The 'myth' of Iraq's foreign fighters

Short answer:

Yes, no, yes, no, no and yes.

Hey, you're right, arguiong with you doesn't take long at all!

I've yet to see you prove any of your allegations, every time you've attempted it in these forums you only managed to look....less than knowledgable.  And taking this thread off topic just to rehash the same tired old arguments is rather silly.
 
Let me get this straight: You do not agree that the US invasion of Iraq was a war of aggression. You are asking me to provide "proof" of this. You also don't think that Iraq's oil had any bearing on Bush's decison to invade Iraq. You are truly a bizzare man. Thank you for your correspondence, and enjoy your Kool-aid.

In any case, even <a href=http://www.pollingreport.com/iraq.htm>most Americans, the most conservative people in the Western world,</a> now agree that the war was a mistake. It's nice to know we're only down to the true loonies now.  :)



 
You are truly a bizzare man. Thank you for your correspondence, and enjoy your Kool-aid.

*sigh*

I retract the above heat-of-the-moment statement. I was out of line and needlessly insulting. 48thhighlander is a reasonable and intelligent fellow by all measures, and although I disagree with him in this particular matter, I respect his opinion and will agree to disagree. FWIW, I think we share the opinion that the US prescence in Iraq needs to continue and maybe increase until the country is stabilized. Perhaps we might have a reasonable new discussion on that topic in the future.
 
"Now, after they killed my husband, I hate them," she said. "I want to blow them all up."

- Wow.  Getting bad over there.  Good thing Janet Reno isn't in power any more, or she'd be Ruby Ridging and Wacoing them simply to death.

- Wait, I forgot, the Clintonistas only kill Americans.

Tom
 
:boring:

What a way to derail a fairly interesting topic.

The content of the insurgency makes for some interesting debates, but the "Justification for Iraq" isn't one of them.

Does anyone have anything relevent to the original topic?
 
Sorry about the bait-aqnd-switch.

I don't think drawing out foreign fighters into an Iraqi KZ is a good justification for staying.  If we have to fall back on that as a reason, then we have failed to understand that if the West leaves Iraq now, they will only end up wishing they left Saddam in power.

Too late to stay out, too soon to go home.

Tom
 
I don't think drawing out foreign fighters into an Iraqi KZ is a good justification for staying.

To me, it doesn't even really make any sense. If Al Qaida is being massacared in such droves  in Iraq as tomahawk6 claims, why do they keep going? The US can't MAKE them go to Iraq. Isn't this the same dichotomy that the US faced in Vietnam? The North Vietnamese, while they didn't do all that well on the battlefield, could never "lose" because they only fought when they chose to, while the US was tied down indefinitely to holding down a foreign population that was at best indifferent.  By invading Iraq, the US has lost the momentum? What makes the Iraqi situation different?

As for the article, perhaps we should keep in mind that Arabs tend to identify with their ancestral tribes, and not their artificial  nation states created by the West. Saying that someone was a Saudi probably doesn't mean as much as saying that they belonged to a specific tribe, which probably had members on both sides of the border, or that they belonged to a specific religious group o rsect.
 
In fairness to Britney (I never thought I'd say those words), I believe there is some truth to the fact that killing an Iraqi individual of any gender obviously creates resentment.

That being said, she/he/we are not rationalizing this all the way through.

1) Who is getting killed?
2) By whom?
3) How is that death impacting the affiliated population?

In order of casualties in the last six months.....(roughly estimated)

Group One:  Shia Iraqis killed and maimed by Al-Qaeda in Iraq (foreign fighters) often with logistical support of Local Sunnis
Impact:  Radicalization of the Shia that they MUST use their power of majority to protect themselves and their customs because they know should the Sunnis rise to power once again, they will be slaughtered.  There are many reports indicating that both police officers and new army officials (in particular in the South) are far more loyal to the Shia Clerics and the Mehdi Army, than they are to the central government.  In essence, the Sunni's are being their own worst enemies in terms of destroying their own negotiating position.

Group Two:  Sunni Insurgents killed and maimed by US/Iraqi Armed Forces
Impact:  I would argue that there is little radicalization taking place here.  Instead I would argue that those who decided to fight and those who support them made their decision a long time ago.  It is reported that Saddam was teaching Guerilla tactics to Republican Guard forces prior to the invasion.  In essence, you could kill them or not kill them, but the nationalist Sunnis want to take back the reigns of power.  Importantly, those Sunnis who are acting in this way are no better than the SS and the Nazi population that supported them and as such finding them each their very own burial plot is fine with me.  And as a side note, there were some interviews done well over a month ago in secular Sunni neighbourhoods in Baghdad (as opposed to Tikrit which is Saddam's hometown) and they quite bluntly said they like the American soldiers, would like them to stay, but very much dislike and distrust the New Iraqi Army that is predominantly Shia.

Group Three:  American Soldiers killed by Sunni Insurgents
Impact:  Growing complaints within the US over why their boys are dying.  They were told it would be a long process, but the fact that the tribal-nature of Iraq appears to eliminated any ability to create a rational solution.  I should point one irony in all of this that it was the pro-war group who wanted to believe the best about the Iraqis that they would pull themselves up by the bootstraps if given the opportunity, and the anti-war group who believed the worst about the Iraqis and predicted a civil war.  Strangely enough when individuals like Britney try to say "I told you so", they often omit that fact....apparently prio-war people have more faith in brown people than anti-war people?

Group Four:  Civilians of all sorts by the US Military
Impact:  Since the initial invasion where "shock & awe" (dumb tactic by the way as it made wonderful footage for Al-Jazeera and Al-Qaeda Recruiting Tapes) it appears that civilian casualties have been minimal with the exception of some poorly dropped bombs.  Tragic, absolutely.  The only disclaimer is that in many cases the bombs landed in Sunni neighbourhoods and often "civilians" were in fact logistical supporters (otherwise they likely would not have been in the same building).

Group Five:  Pro-Democracy Sunnis by Nationalists and Al-Qaeda
Impact:  Fear.  This tactic has been incredibly effective in silencing the secular Sunnis who we do want to negotiate with.  My own belief is that the United States needs to redirect assets to protect this specific group and get them involved.

Where I'm going with all  of this:  "Iraqi deaths are not directly equivalent to more resistance to the United States.  As with everything in life, it is a matter of context." 


More important is the discussion of "Whereto from here?"

Quite frankly, I think the only solution is a loose federation of affiliated states as neither the Shia nor Kurd trusts the Sunnis to be part of a ruling government with jurisdiction over their territory....and based on their behaviour under the previous regime in particular, I find it hard to blame them.  The difficult part will be how to arm each of these federated states.  My own opinion is that in the constitution there needs to be a clear statement of only ONE central army for as soon as you get regional armies, or even militias, you are very quickly going to see outside interests leap in to cause great difficulty.  The Iranians have already started this by arming the Mehdi Army.  The Americans have been arming the Kurds for years (with good reason) which leaves the Sunnis who would likely be befriended by whomever they offer oil rights to (Russian, China, France....maybe the USA). 

Bottom Line:  Democracy in nations with segregated homogenous populations is rarely easy and often fails but we need to stop trivializing the process by getting caught up either anti-war or pro-war mantras as they are guaranteed to get us nowhere. 

JMHO,



Matthew.  :salute:
 
Balkanization of Iraq is a non-starter. It sure has worked well in Europe. An article I read recently addresses this pretty well.

http://www.nationalreview.com/hanson/hanson200509230813.asp
 
Good article, Infanteer. It's interesting to see some actual figures tied to the numbers of foreign fighters and their respective origins. The "foreign fighter" misconception is unsurprising if one considers that it's much more comfortable and propagandistically expedient to believe and purport that the resistance to "liberation" is the work of someone other than the people you're supposed be "liberating". Kind of akin to the "they greet us with cheers on the roadside" stuff running on the tickertape below film of US soldiers being pelted with rocks. The emperor's new clothes are fine, indeed.  ::)
 
Glorified Ape said:
Good article, Infanteer. It's interesting to see some actual figures tied to the numbers of foreign fighters and their respective origins. The "foreign fighter" misconception is unsurprising if one considers that it's much more comfortable and propagandistically expedient to believe and purport that the resistance to "liberation" is the work of someone other than the people you're supposed be "liberating". Kind of akin to the "they greet us with cheers on the roadside" stuff running on the tickertape below film of US soldiers being pelted with rocks. The emperor's new clothes are fine, indeed.   ::)

You leap to hyperbole too quickly....the statistics also show that in excess of 60% of suicide bombers of all types (which are causing the huge majority of casualties) are foreigners, primarily Saudis.  In essence, if you eliminated the foreigners, casualties could quickly fall 50% or more....

In short, you better check your own garb before you step too far out in front of the masses to "testify".



Matthew.  ;)
 
Cdn Blackshirt said:
You leap to hyperbole too quickly....the statistics also show that in excess of 60% of suicide bombers of all types (which are causing the huge majority of casualties) are foreigners, primarily Saudis.   In essence, if you eliminated the foreigners, casualties could quickly fall 50% or more....

In short, you better check your own garb before you step too far out in front of the masses to "testify".



Matthew.    ;)

Not at all - if you consider where the real problem lies, it's not with foreign agitators but with the elements of the native population engaged in insurgency. They're the ones most likely to prove the enduring problem, imo. They're also not the ones busy protesting US soldiers or pelting them with rocks, I would think, and thus aren't the propagandistically disrobing element which I was referring to. Indeed, they can't be if they're foreign since the argument I was making was that the US' "roadside flower party" image was being dispelled not only by the native insurgents but by the common Iraqi protester.
 
Britney Spears said:
Dare, before your cohorts derailed the discussion with a whole page of meaningless, irrelevent polemic and flag waving (a typical conservative tactic), and ad hominem attacks (thanks tomahawk6, really raising the standards here)  I asked you a question:
Pretend I am an average, moderate Iraqi and explain to me how you morally justify "fighting them over there", an action which has resulted in massive destruction of my homeland and the death of thousands of my countrymen. You have offered nothing,  aside from:
Ah yes, my "cohorts". Having not actually seen any of them waving flags, I must say, I wouldn't be offended had they done so. So, aside from the fact that I have talked to "average, moderate Iraqi's", I will pretend you are one. I will explain to you how this will lead to less death in the future of your countrymen that Saddam wasted away during his reign. You, of course, being an average, moderate Iraqi, will likely understand completely the brutality of Saddam and agree to that end. Given you will likely be an eligable voter, you will be entitled to vote for your own representatives at the next election. This being another thing I suspect I would not have to tell you. You'd already know. Chances are, you'd already have braved death to vote in the previous election. Given you'd be "average", you'd like be Shi'a and pleased that Saddam is gone and won't be filling mass graves with your people any more. I suspect you'd also be pleased that the former Iraq was not allowed to be free and grow strong enough to destroy Iran and take over a larger geostratigic mass of petroleum. I would have no doubt that the idea of Saddam having nuclear weapons would frighten you far more than the Americans having nuclear weapons.
and something or other about your mother. How charming.
Yes. You brought my mother into it. So she hopped into her invisible SUV of BloodOil and began shooting random foreigners. Just like all "Security Mom's". *Insert deflection of whatever random meme's you wish to add*  ::)
And you were still wondering why they fight? No, according to you, they are not fighting at all!
No. 99% of Iraqi's are not fighting. Interesting, yes? Considering, of any country, Iraq has more than enough weapons floating around to put up a serious challenge, rather than what is currently being battled.
There is no Iraqi resistance, American troops are not getting blown up, the article that Infanteer posted, and all the articles that I've posted saying the same thing, are just liberal lies. The title of the thread is a lie. Everything is just going peachy. Hail Bush.  ::)
I did not say there is "no Iraqi resistance". I did not say that American troops are "not getting blown up". I never said Infanteer's article was a "liberal lie". I never said the title of the thread is a lie. I never said everything was going peachy, and I certainly never said "Hail Bush". If you like, I can insert a whole lot of words and phrases into your mouth as well?
Do you have a serious answer? I'm still listening.
Yeah. 8 million out of 14 million people voted in Iraq for the first time. Each vote cast was voluntary. Fighting the enemy where they grow, recruit and strengthen is the only way to defeat the enemies that we mutually share. It is a strategic advantage. It always will be. No amount of race baiting or other clap traps will change it. We fight them there, so we don't have to fight them here. If we had to fight them here, it would not make it any less lethal for their civilians. Just more lethal for our civilians. Whom we are charged with protecting. You position holds no water. Not that it usually does.
 
Britney Spears said:
Well, the upside is that argueing with you  doesn't actually take very long.

Absolutely, do you dispute this? Or are you claiming that Iraq has engaged in a unilateral act of war against the US?
It seems to me that Iraq actually engaged in several hundred unilateral acts of war against the US, France and Britain. Each shot on their fighters is an act of war. Neglecting the fact that Iraq was already at war with several nations including the US. It was under a ceasefire agreement. Which it broke. "Unilaterally", if you will.
I am claiming that US public opinion on the Iraq war was motivated at least partially by race, due to the fact that the 9/11 hijackers were Arabs, and that Arab terrorism has long been a public spectacle. This IMO is ignorance.
It does sound like ignorance of one type, or another..
The US intentionally started a war which is causing this situation. Do you dispute this?
Cause and effect is a bit weak there, considering the Iraq government and the US government are not the only actors.
Absolutely, do you dispute this?
If they fought for oil, why did they give it back to the Iraqi's?
I never said anything about your mom, but it's true that I dislike people who drive SUVs soley for the sake  of appearances.
I've yet to meet an SUV driver who bought it to "look cool" or to "look tough". SUV's are excellently designed machines with many possible purposes.
 
Britney Spears said:
To me, it doesn't even really make any sense. If Al Qaida is being massacared in such droves  in Iraq as tomahawk6 claims, why do they keep going? The US can't MAKE them go to Iraq. Isn't this the same dichotomy that the US faced in Vietnam? The North Vietnamese, while they didn't do all that well on the battlefield, could never "lose" because they only fought when they chose to, while the US was tied down indefinitely to holding down a foreign population that was at best indifferent.  By invading Iraq, the US has lost the momentum? What makes the Iraqi situation different?
See past the box. Look at the full picture. Who is locked down? It seems to me, several ideologies and governments are locked down on Iraq. It is not the US that is. They can leave if they want. They can irradiate the whole country if they want. They can fight an entire other war if they want. The box they have put themselves in is an artificial and political one. It is a chain that disallows advocates of leaving too soon, a platform. At any time, they can leave this box and break that chain. It is only there to provide commitment to the total mission and give a longer end game cemented in the area. Tactically, it may be that our enemies fight at a time of their chosing, but strategically, they are dedicated to fight at a time the US chose, which is now. The smart ones know that if they don't prevent the success of the new Iraq government, their ideologies will be doomed to retreat to other failing nations as the traditional swamp drains. It already spread to Lebanon. *We* have the momentum. Because the democratic movement is not purely military. It empowers civility to take control. Thus, the US has indeed compelled these agitators and terrorists to Iraq, by virtue of self-preservation. If they do not remove what springs in our wake, they will eventually be defeated *by our momentum*. That is why they come to fight. That is why we fight them "over there". The extremists have boxed themselves in making America  and Israel their prime mission for being. They are holding onto their piles of sand by either being the best at fighting the west or Israel (verbally usually), or by claiming the other does not fight the west or Israel enough. Again, boxing themselves in. They certainly picked the countries least likely to capitulate to being slaughtered.
As for the article, perhaps we should keep in mind that Arabs tend to identify with their ancestral tribes, and not their artificial  nation states created by the West. Saying that someone was a Saudi probably doesn't mean as much as saying that they belonged to a specific tribe, which probably had members on both sides of the border, or that they belonged to a specific religious group o rsect.
That's an interesting racial suggestion, yet again, from you. Perhaps if you specified it was culturally oriented, I would agree. Considering not every Iraqi is an Arab. Not every Saudi is an Arab.
 
"To me, it doesn't even really make any sense. If Al Qaida is being massacared in such droves  in Iraq as tomahawk6 claims, why do they keep going? "

- Because they believe they will eventually prevail.  This is not a foriegn concept to us, either.

Tom
 
CIA World factbook gives Saudi population at 90% Arab and 10% "Afro-Asian" (whatever that is).
 
Break down of the different Religions within Saudi Arabia:

74 % Sunni Muslim;
13.4 % Shi'ite Muslim;
4 % Christian;
0.7 % Hindu;
0.5 % Buddhist; and
1.4 % (Other Religion or Athiest).

"Christians make up 4% of the population but 98% of the Christian population are expatriates. The sacredness of the area to Muslims makes for a rather strict and harsh attitude towards non-Muslims and their religious activities.

An interesting link below if you would like to get into the nitty-gritty details of the Countries of Origin for the immigrant and ex-pat polpulations within Saudi:

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=538603


 
Back
Top