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The Matt Stopford Saga

DFW2T,

Knock it off with the over the top personal attacks, stop assuming things that are not there, he asked a legitmite question that any investigator would be asking in this situation looking for places to start, so he could   .....persecuted to the full extent of our legal   abilities.   Hung from the highest tree!   WO Stopfords' character should not be in question


Please do not display your ignorance of investigating concepts by hiding behind an assault on another.
He did not now, or ever, question WO Stopfords charactor, but like he stated, attempted murder of a superior is just not something that happens out of the blue,..........,.....unless your saying it does to you.......

...and sunshine, I was in 20 years ago and I think the "sharp" end is a lot sharper today than we were so :-X

EDIT: cause I skipped a couple of small words ;)
 
Bruce Monkhouse said:
DFW2T,

Knock it off with the over the top personal attacks, stop assuming things that are not there, he asked a legitmite question that any investigator would be asking in this situation looking for places to start, so he could   .....persecuted to the full extent of our legal   abilities.   Hung from the highest tree!   WO Stopfords' character should not be in question


Please do not display your ignorance of investigating concepts by hiding behind an assault on another.
He did not now, or ever, question WO Stopfords charactor, but like he stated, attempted murder of a superior is just not something that happens out of the blue,..........,.....unless your saying it does to you.......

...and sunshine, I was in 20 years ago and I think the "sharp" end is a lot sharper today than we were so :-X


  OK! pardon my tardy response.

        SUNSHINE?????????   WTF   Dorash/Monkhouse    ...are you guys in the same Militia Unit?????

  I apologise to all    (that don't call me sunshine) ......................and to.......... (modorators..thank you for you discrepancy.....I will be good!)


    Dorash/Monkhouse,       you can dazzle who ever you want with your advanced vocabulary ...... but the meat of he subject is .....YOU THINK THESE BOYS WHO POISONED THIER LEADER may have an out!   Like they had a reason???
I am writing this from Baghdad................and I shiver to think that I have to worry   that I was not politically correct with one of the guys who are wathching my 6......

  Hey "SUNSHINE".......this is why people like YOU TWO are not working with me!   And by the way ..you were in 20 years ago......how long were you in for??????
 
I think Michael was playing devils advocate and simply doing what any investigator would do exploring the issue from any and all angles.
To assume that he thinks the accused have an out is inaccurate.
If we were to all sit here and agree that the accused should be drawn and quartered then there would not be much point to the forum at all, so don't take it to heart when someone brings up a point of view that may in fact not sit well with you.

Bruce was enforcing forum guidelines against personal attacks.
Which you levied in the first place against Mr. Dorosh, which in itself is a breech of forum guidelines.
If you think your service record puts you above and beyond the forum guidelines you perhaps should talk to Jungle, Big Bad John, or any of the many members of the forum with long and distinguished records who still manage to behave in a civil manner.

Knock it off and take it to PM like Bruce said.
Persuing this any further in the open forum will undoubtably lead to your removal from the forum, which I feel would be a shame given your reported service and experience.
 
Should Mr Stopford get a pension? Yes. Was he a "hero" and were his troops "cowards"? That's another story. Being somewhat familiar with the case, and I'll go no further than that, the issue is not as black and white as it seems. J
 
There is noone posting in this who is saying what happend to Stopford is excusable. I think there are lessons to be learned here, and if we manage to get away from the rhetoric and emotion, there might be some interesting discussion on HOW or WHY this happened.

Leadership style, soldiers attitudes, there is so much.

WO Stopford got handed the *****y end of the stick, as do so many of our soldiers who become casualties in one way shape or form. There is no excuse for that either.

I am still curious as to the reasons some of these people may have had, as ridiculous as they may come across. I don't think anyone would have done this sort of thing, thinking that it wouldn't hurt the intended victim. I think it was deliberate and slow...Which gets back to the question, WHY would someone/someones do this?

It's a public case, WO Stopford deserves medical care and the support of VFA and the military. But the root causes  are still a mystery. There are always people who know people who know the real deal. Are we likely to see this in the media? I don't know.

Cautiously interested,

TM
 
No matter who did what or who's at fault the fact remains that Stopford is sick now and wasn't before he left.
He deserves a pension.  He deserves compensation to cover his medical needs and to live what's left of his life in peace and whatever comfort he can (for one suffering as he is).  Whether it was a well known big battle, or a small battle, he fought for his country in the Medak pocket and was decorated for it.  The CF needs to acknowledge this and the fact that they have let him down.  Steps need to be taken to rectify this whole situation.
What does it say to civilians who depend on CF to protect them when there is mutiny within the ranks?  And how are possible new recruits going to view this when they are thinking about signing up?  It doesn't exactly spell out "join the army we'll take care of you" does it?
Also, I'd like to point out (from peter worthington's article) that most of the soldiers serving with Stopford were reservists who, in all likelihood, just didn't want to be there.  Afterall, they are not used to regularly participating in battles. 
At any rate, Stopford deserves dignity and justice.  He is a hero.
 
Lets get one thing straight about reservists. If we didnt WANT to be there, we wouldnt volunteer to go along. We're not required to serve overseas. Knock of the reserve soldier crap and just leave it as 'soldiers'.

Good and bad, professional and slackers......The Regs AND Reserves have their fair share of both. To me, the word hero implies something above and beyond the call of duty. Like the word love, it seems to be thrown about too often without much substance.
 
HH,
Sorry missed that one,.... hey "SuperB", think about the stupidity of what you said...Also, I'd like to point out (from peter worthington's article) that most of the soldiers serving with Stopford were reservists who, in all likelihood, just didn't want to be there.

.....what they just got drafted? ::)

...and this gem.... Afterall, they are not used to regularly participating in battles.......and everyone in the reg's is, right? ::)

Good post, except where you swerved out of your lane,.........stay in it.....
 
I agree with HH that the term 'hero' seems to be thrown around a lot here, especially by: 1-those who haven't served a day or 2-those with empty profiles (I assume #2=#1). He was doing his job. Is there a record of him acting heroically? Or is he a hero merely because he was poisoned by his own men? If he's a hero, then every soldier who does his job is a hero.

I wasn't in Medak and I don't know the Warrant, but I do know a FEW of the guys who were there. None of them (that I know) are 'bad apples' or otherwise malicious individuals. I won't pass judgement on them, or the Warrant, but there HAS to be some reason these otherwise solid troops would continuously poison him. Not to say he deserved it, but it couldn't have been an unprovoked attack.

But what do I know, I'm just a reservist not used to battle. ::)
 
HollywoodHitman said:
Lets get one thing straight about reservists. If we didnt WANT to be there, we wouldnt volunteer to go along. We're not required to serve overseas. Knock of the reserve soldier crap and just leave it as 'soldiers'.

Good and bad, professional and slackers......The Regs AND Reserves have their fair share of both. To me, the word hero implies something above and beyond the call of duty. Like the word love, it seems to be thrown about too often without much substance.

Brilliant HH

Could not have said it better.

I was wondering when the first "neck down" post was going to be added, that, just had to attack a reservist.

tess
 
A good point has been raised that this case is in the public record, and has been for some time. I agree fully with the suggestion that this case should be used as a study in leadership issues. What happened, and why, and how was it dealt with? As well, I would also include a study of the war crimes in Somalia, as well as the surrender of Canadian soldiers in FRY. We need to understand why bad things happen in operations, and why otherwise good people go off the rails. More importantly, we need to know what we can do to prevent or at least reduce such incidents in the future.

I do not think that what I am suggesting is particularly new or radical. When I took the Presiding Officers' Certification Course a few years ago, some of the cases we looked at were those from Somalia. None of these things were secret (indeed the last thing we want is secrecy where military justice is concerned).

I know that for a number of people these cases will be uncomfortable, and will provoke angry reactions. That is to be expected, but those personal reactions can't be an obstacle to us trying to learn from what happened. It's all very well to say "go and read the inquiry reports" but the amount of study required is beyond the average person and so will not happen. Instead, I suggest executive summaries, or narratives, that can be used in leadership training, or ethics training, etc.

Cheers.
 
I need to apologize to all the reservists.  I did not intend to make any of you feel less trained or capable than the regs or to offend you in any way.  You all do our country a great service and for that I thank you.  :salute:

I agree that lessons can be learned by this.  But when?  Stopford was poisoned in 1993.  That's 12 YEARS ago!  His life expectancy isn't very good and his quality of life is extremely poor.  When is the DND/CF/Canadian Gov't going to step up and help him? ???

Do any of you feel worried that if in the future something like this were to happen to you CF wouldn't take care of you?  I know that Stopford always thought CF would take care of him especially if something happened to him while he was serving (no matter what it was or who/what caused it). ::)
 
I first met Matt Stopford when I came to 2nd Bn in 1988 through Bush Thornhill (now I am dating myself). And I served in 'A' Coy in Yugo (1993) when he was in 'B' Coy. As much as I liked Matt I heard that he had endangered his troops several times unnecessarily (and this is from guys I know to be otherwise level headed). Alot of this had to do with weapons cache drag nets (in the end the OC got charged for similar things). All this is to illustrate that how people act in-country does not necessarily illustrate how they act in-theatre. In the end almost everyone I talked to while on-tour thought Matt was doing as good a job as could be expected: not exemplary but not bad (especially <<<moderator edit for PERSEC>>>).

However, knowing Matt, and the soldiers who liked and disliked him, the idea of poisoning him is utterly unacceptable and unprofessional. First, not only are there chains-of-command to go through but many of the Sr NCO's would have been friends of Matt, and friends that Matt would have listened too had things actually gone 'too' far (a subjective line if ever there was one). Second, the idea of 'fragging' (or any of its variants) is one that may be discussed-out of frustrations or stress more often than naught-but isn't one carried out...at least in Canadian situations. The 'fragging' story is, in my opinion, just that: a story. It is, unfortunately, one that has reached mythic proportions.

This is not to say that Matt wasn't poisoned. Rather it is just a comment on the quick resort to these things as happening as relatively commmon occurrences. If Matt was poisoned, even this late in the game, medical inquiry could narrow thie likelihood of this down or not. Now why this isn't being investigated medically, and, admittedly, this may be due to my own ignorance, is the question I find vexing.

On a different note: One responder wrote wondering whether incidents like these would affect soldier's confidence in their hierarchy. The answer to this is quiote simple: it utterly undermined it. Anyone who was around for the year following Yugo (and the hushing up of Medak) knows this. As RegF soldiers (no offence to the PRes but it is different in this regard) we absolutely HAVE to believe in our leadership. When you are asked to take human life, as we were in Medak (and in other incidents seemingly forgotten on that tour), you NEED to believe that why you did so-as determined by those who make the decisions-are making sound judgements. We didn't question this so much in Medak or on the tour but, because of how we were (mis)treated by our own people, in Battalion and higher, many of us were left wondering about our actions on that tour. In this regard when the pitch came to our senior staff in Battalion no one was at, or went to, bat for us-we were left to our own devices. The moral in the unit plummeted and I don't think it was recoverable-at least not in the foreseeable future.

The PRes pers we received were not of the higst calibre. Before biting my head off or thinking I am pro-RegF and anti-PRes allow me to say that this is a genralisation and woefully misrepresents the many excellent PRes guys we did have (and many of them got f****d over when we got back). The level of trg was poor and disorganised and, to be perfectly clear, I dont think this was the fault of the PRes. For example, many good soldiers from the East Coast were sent back due to politics (a certain rich Colonel from Alberta helped alot in this regard-to name but one). When we were trg the PRes guys it was incredible how many failed their basic wpns handling drills. What also shocked many of us was the Marine style 'gung-ho' or 'hoowah' attitude of the PRes guys (and, yes, this did exist elsewhere in the forces but not in this unit at this time...perhaps just luck and timing). Again, this is not the fault of the young guys coming to us.

Another aspect of the PRes issue was the sheer amount of them that we HAD to take (some one's pet project or so it was told to me). No matter how well trained attachment soldiers may be they cannot represent a larger number than the core of a unit or you lose unit integrity. This isn't an insult to the PRes it is just common, perhaps tactical, sense. 2 PPCLI had to take close to 50% (the exact number eludes me at this point-my apolgies). The lack of unit cohesion began to show when we deployed to Fort Ord and Fort Hunter-Ligget in California. This was discussed and sent up through the chain-of-command and all we got back was silence. During the tour this mish-mash was made apparent in even how the companies were manned. 'A' Coy, during the planning phase, was going into the hottest area at the time (Pakrac). Now before individuals serving with the other Coy's bite my head off please note that this was a planning decision. I enjoyed serving with 'A' Coy but I do not think it was some form of Spec Ops or Super Coy-that's BS. But we were 'stacked' none-the-less. This was told to many by not only the OC but the CO (and it caused some consternation amongst, well, everyone...and justifiably so!).

I want to reiterate once more that this is not a slag against the PRes guys who were with us-many of them were excellent but many more were not (and our own in-house problems were not of the calibre of the problems we had seen with the PRes nor with the problems seen elsewhere in the CF...in fact, we had many ex-2 CDO guys come back to us that year BECAUSE of the BS that was going in the Airborne). Finally, many of these commments on the PRes issue (only for this tour and 2nd Bn) are a matter of public record-see the inquiries that occurred afterward (SCONDVA I believe they were called).



So, when we returned, went through the heck that was post-Op life for the more or less abandoned and left to our own devices 2 Bn, we then received a warning order stating that we were going back to Yugo AND that, because the PRes augmentation worked so well, we would do it all over again the same way. Whther this turned out to be the case many 2nd Bn guys never found out. I, like many, many others, decided enough was enough. The system had failed us miserably (and the poor ******* PRes guys who served with us and were subsequently and unceremoniously dumped upon our return-that was BS) and it was clear our chain-of-command even within the Bn had also failed. How can you go into another combat zone (we didn't know it was going to settle down as much as it did then) knowing this? How can you see what you see and act as you act-both necessarily violent in places liek Yugo- all while never being sure if what you are doing is the right thing because you can see little or no reaosn to trust or respect those who are making the decision...you can't.

Perhaps the decision I made was just as much a statement on what I needed to do-which was leave the CF-as it is an idictment of that system. but, in the end, the idictment stands, in my opinion. The CF leadership (read: officers) failed us then as it is failing Matt now.

It is a sad and sombre state-of-affairs that has left me, and others, questioning their actions...then and now.

Cheers guys-apoligies for the length...guess I had some 'issues' bottled up     ;)

(MODERATOR EDIT - Altered one reference of "f-stick" - this isn't the place to be slagging others; Infanteer)
 
Only One Left said:
Matt was in 11Pl, D Coy, I was in 10 Pl.   My Pl WO was Weird Harold McKay.

...and the point is?
 
Don't apologize for length; that was a very good and interesting read.  Hopefully the case will be brought to a satisfactory conclusion in a timely manner.
 
RE: Matt Stopford in 'D' Coy.

You're correct, my mistake. It's been some time since I thought about this stuff. It was the 'B' Coy OC who was charged with disobeying a direct command regarding the destruction of belligerent weapons. I got the two confused.

'Weird' Harold was my Battle School Pl WO...a strange, strange man to say the least.

Thanks for the correction
 
I think the entire Matt Stopford situation shows:

a.  proper medical support must be provided in a timely manner for our veterans;  and

b.  Proper post deployment activities must be adhered to.  We have come a long way since the days of coming off a plane and everyone dispersing back across Canada. This has manifested itself recently when 3 PPCLI used the third location decompression initiatives after their tour on Op APOLLO as well as the post deployment activities other Battle Groups undergo when returning from Bosnia and Afghanistan.  It seems like it took us a long time to realize that their are five phases to any operation (warning, training, deployment, employment and redeployment).  We usually did the middle three well but felt that redeployment ended once the wheels hit the ground back in Canada.

Cheers,
 
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