The Great Gun Control Debate

[OLD SCHOOL]

No zingers? How do you survive life in the Army without zingers? Don‘t worry you won‘t hurt my feelings...I don‘t have any.
O.K so you are part redneck so you seem to understand. I just did not agree with your statement that it was not a bad idea. The implementation of the registry borders on criminal.Where did the money go? How does the registry prevent the East Indian gangster from shooting buddy with a Sten over a debt or even you when you give him the finger in traffic? We are all for safe storage and licenses etc...but the gov. says this makes us safe. Criminals do not jump through hoops to own firearms and they never will. I smell dirty kickbacks in this program. Where is our money? People should be screaming. Forensic audit right ******* now please. $ 1,000,000,000 and 6 months to answer an e-mail? Any ma and pa two-bit business in Canada selling a widget will get back to you today or tomorrow! I would love to keep everyones children safe but this is no way to go about it. Beleive me I am no redneck freak...It would take me 45 minutes to get my shotgun out of Fort Knox if someone was breaking into my house...would probably shoot myself in the process...Just tired of the gov. trying to keep us safe and letting the real firearms criminals off with a handshake.
I worked for years at low pay in a tough enviornment and to watch some REMF geeks getting rich while we are fed **** in the dark would hurt my feelings...if I had any.

Surely nobody can argue against the fact that something dirty went on somewhere in the CFC? Someone has made plenty of money and it is not the Police Departments or the Crown Councils that could have used that money to keep your children safe.

The gov. is more dangerous than a epileptic on a grenade range and that will never change.

 

[fusilier955]

it is funny, in my political science class we studied this. there is actually an increase in gun related crimes since its instatement, the number has surprisingly doubled. as for the "tougher" zero tolerance to those who are caught with an unregistared firearm, there has been only one person jacked up by it so far, the rest have been passed over.

 

[nULL]

what exactly is involved with the registration process? is it merely informing the authorities of the number and type of guns you have and ensuring they are stored properly?

 

[Padraig OCinnead]

The more I‘ve looked at this issue since I‘ve dragged it out of my mental closet, the less tidy it seems. It makes sense that this does nothing more than inconvience those who‘ve done nothing wrong. It seems that MR. Apu Nahasapeemapetilon doesn‘t register his Tac-four when he bought from Nigel Maroon-Town it in the back alley. The new law should have been handled by experts in the field rather than REMFs in the three ring circus that Ottawa can at times seem to be.

I‘ll stand by my statement however that the idea behind it is valid. It seems the politicians (goaded by the left wing knee jerking sissies) just mixed up who they should have been treating like dirty greasy little criminals and who was to be treated like the honest tax paying peasants.

 

[Padraig OCinnead]

Oh yeah, by the way S_Baker it‘s spelled toques not touques! Tabarnac!

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Old School - I should have been more clear. I would be in favour of a cost effective registry. Of course it won‘t prevent criminals from having guns, nor will it make them register, etc. The current registry is an undefensible joke. On that, we agree.

 

[Garry]

I think any rational individual is willing to give up some personal freedom for the greater good of society, but how much is enough?

I think the whole basis of the firearms act is flawed, in that it assigns responsibility of the individual to the Government, vice the individual.

I contend that the individual is responsible to himself/herself, for themselves. I also contend that each must conduct themselves in a socially correct manner to remain a member of society.

No matter how many laws there are governing the tools of man, people still wallop each other with them. Drunk driving is a perfect example. We must (and do) codify the rules of personal behaviour.

As stated in previous posts, we have all the rules neccessary to guide personal behaviour. No more rules are required to punish those people who go against the wishes of Canadian Society.

In short- personal responsibility.

Unfortunately, personal responsibility is becoming less and less fashionable. As is common sense, and moral standards.

We as a society tend to trail our southern neighbours by about 10 years- watch out: the "nameless faceless society" than encourages personal outrages is coming sooner than you think.

Compounding the problem is a society that thinks criminals can and must be rehabilitated. Add in the concept that you cannot defend yourself (we‘re getting there) and you‘ve got Britain- check out the statistics for yourselves, it‘s getting scary.

We‘re basically a good bunch here in Canada- but our society is changing- deny it all you want, but it ain‘t gona stop.

Personal Responsibility- scary thought, eh?

 

[Gunnar]

Just keep in mind that Bowling is not a documentary, but in fact a propaganda tool on the part of Moore. Take a look at this:

http://www.spinsanity.org/post.html?2003_08_31_archive.html#10624779059990811

You get to see interesting things like the "free gun" at the bank demo was staged (cuz the waiting period still applies) and that Heston‘s comments were frequently taken out of context, and in fact from different speeches.

I don‘t disagree that the US has a problem with guns and gun crime, but to use Bowling as a pillar on which to lean arguments against guns is not a good plan....

In other news, at the start of the new year, some people were killed with properly registered guns. Man, did the registry ever help them.

 

[Maxpower]

Originally posted by nULL:
[qb] what exactly is involved with the registration process? is it merely informing the authorities of the number and type of guns you have and ensuring they are stored properly? [/qb]

Well this is a bit more complicated as that. As a new firearms owner i know i bit on this topic. First you need your licence in order to legally aquire or posses any firearms or ammunition. To get my license I had to take the Canadian Firearms Saftey Course on both non-restricted (most rifles and shotguns) and restricted (handguns) firearms. This was no big deal and was approximately 60 bucks. Then I mailed my test results, references, a photo and another 80 bucks away to New Brunswick to get my PAL (Possession and Aquisition License). Another option could be to get a POL (possession only license) in order to legally buy ammo and retain the registered firearms you own, but not aquire new ones. So After approximately 2 months I recieved my PAL. For my first legal firearm, I bought a U22 Neos. This falls into the Restricted class of firearms as it is a handgun. In order to purchase a restricted firearm, like a handgun for target shooting purposes, you must be a member of a recognized shooting club. Then just go to the store and put the money down on the gun you want. The store then calls the CFC (canadian firearms center) and initiates the transfer of the handgun to you. You have to give some information and pay the gov‘t a 25 dollar transfer fee by credit card. They then give you a reference # and send you on your merry way. They said it would take about a week to transfer the firearm and when the transfer was complete they would phone and notify the buyer. After waiting 10 days I had to initate the inquery on my transfer and was told that it had been completed. Before you can go to the store and pick up your firearm, you have to contact the Cheif firearms officer in your provence to be issued a Temporary ATT (authorization to transport). This ATT will have the Gun‘s Model, Serial# and the timeframe in which you are allowed to pick up the firearm and transfer it to you place of residence.
Once that is done and you now have your firearm at home you have to apply for a perminant ATT which is usually good for 3 years or until your license expires. Mine took about a week to recieve and had the condition on it that I could transfer my firearm to any recognized gun range or gunsmith within my province of residence as long as I possessed the registration certificate for that firearm as well. Now when the firearm is transfered to you from the store (or other seller) you are given the registration # but a new certificate is then queued to be printed in some government center. This takes about 3 weeks to recieve. So from Start to finish, it takes approximately 3 months to be able to purchase a handgun and legally transfer it to the range in order to go shooting. Now this was for Restricted firearms, maybe someone who legally owns a rifle can let us know the proceedure for purchasing/registering a non-restricted firearm.

My opinion on this: I think that this is a bit outragous. The licensing proceedure to be able to purchase a firearm and ammunition is a good idea, better yet, essential. But the registration proceedure is bullshit. The billions of dollars used to set up this big farce of a system was definately NOT worth it. The law abiding citizens who own, or want to own, a gun for legitimate uses are being hurt by this act. Not just the legal owners, but the newcomers who, like myself, want to get into the intresting world of firearms. I think that this system is discouraging new people into this sport and is bad for Canada in general.

Anything I missed, just let me know.


:fifty:

 

[Michael Dorosh]

But Bowling for Columbine was at least entertaining propaganda. I‘m aware of the staged and edited parts, and it seems a bit heartless to have ostracized Mose...Charlton Heston now that his illness has come to light. But should a man with Alzheimer‘s really be in charge of the largest pro-firearms interest group in the world, either?

I couldn‘t agree more with the concept of individual rights - and we are all seeing the changes Garry talks about daily.

 

[Infanteer]

But Bowling for Columbine was at least entertaining propaganda

Well, I will agree with that. I watched it and was entertained at some parts; I liked it when he walked through Compton for his piece on manufacturing fear.
In the end I can say I learned something...that Moore is still an idiot.

 

[wright.rj]

I am totally opposed to the gun control law, as stated in this forum the only people that this law is inconveniencing is the law abiding hunter or collector. The practice of random inspections of gun owners' facilities rings vaguely familiar to the type operations done here in Bosnia; when we root through peoples houses looking for weapons, for those of you who don't know this is called â Å“OP Harvestâ ?. Now my question is: now that the government knows where all the firearms are, when will the Government of Canada conduct an â Å“OP Harvestâ ?? Moreover, how will you, as a soldier, feel about going door to door to confiscate your fellow Canadian's weapons? I know that I would have difficulty. I know that I'm not alone in this concern. Also alluded to in this forum is the fact that buddy in down-town Toronto, Vancouver or even small town Alberta is not going to patiently wait, as Maxpower did, to get all of his paperwork in order and get permission to transport his Uzi to jack the local CIBC!

This law is just a way to make the left wing tree huggers FEEL safe at night in their $800,000 condo in Toronto! NOTE: I said FEEL safe, cause it won‘t make the country any safer.

 

[Franko]

I can‘t believe I‘m actually going to say this Rob but....WELL SAID!

Can‘t believe you wrote that. You usually have a hard time walking up stairs...I‘m impressed!

 

[Marauder]

Even if you do jump through the dozen plus hoops and make the gov richer by another $250 or so, you can‘t defend your home with a firearm anyway. If you are ever in a situation where you blast some intruder who breaks into your house in the middle of the night, you‘re gonna wind up charged with murder some liberal **** of a crown attorney. The Liberals think it‘s much better that you turtle and gamble that the piece of **** invading YOUR HOME will just rob you blind of things you WORKED FOR, and hopefully decides not to KILL YOU and YOUR FAMILY for a little extra sport.
That‘s why after going through the headache and expense of getting a PAL with Restricted, I now just keep a ball bat by the door of my bedroom. (I fiugre it will take another decade or so before they ban baseball and baseball bats in Canada.) I figure I can likely get away with just crippling anyone breaking in my home and then dumping them in the crackhouse part of the city. I doubt they‘ll tell the cops they got broken during the comission of a home invasion, and anyone seeing me dump the shitsack will only be some throwaway crackie anyhow.

 

[logau]

Check this out. From http://www.cbc.ca/national/rex/rex_040107.html

I think we`ve found 2 billion - 1 billions siphoned off by Jane Stewart (no puns intended - think about how you get gas out of a gas tank with a green hose) and 1 billion by Alan Rock on the gun control Farce.

Dear PM Martin

Since you never asked - we can be bought - about 2 billion for the Army would be in order - CASH - and then we may still vote you out.

The gun registry: A billion dollar bag of perfect uselessness

Jan. 7, 2004

For the second time in less than a year, parts of Toronto resemble a bad gangster movie.

Almost every weekend for the last while, one or more people are shot. Some are injured, others killed at clubs, at dances, on the street. There‘s usually a crowd present when the fireworks start, but there‘s hardly ever a witness with the guts to come forward afterwards. Vancouver is not as ripe with gun killings or injuries as Toronto, but there was one killing in Vancouver recently even more disgusting than some of the ones here. The young woman killed by a handgun was trying to help some poor character who was being set upon and kicked by a bunch of thugs. She got shot and killed in the downtown district of Gastown. It seems particularly miserable that the only person with spirit and conscience to interfere with a beating, a genuine good Samaritan, gets shot and killed, killed essentially for being a decent human being.

If this level of murderous thuggery were present in any other country but Canada, I suppose the public attitude would have to be one of despair and helplessness, but Canada, our dear Canada has had for a number of years now one of the most thorough and certainly one of the most expensive gun registry programs since the very invention of gun powder. And if we are to oblige the logic that went into setting up a system of registering firearms with the cost only slightly less than the missile defence program, it has to be that when a gun goes off criminally in this country, all the police have to do is tap the nearest computer keyboard, pick up the handcuffs on their way out, and nab the felon.

I know it will stagger everyone to hear this, but it doesn‘t quite work like that. Whether it‘s a rash of gun killings or just a single gun murder, our platinum priced gun registry with its billion-dollar cost overrun is not just ordinarily useless in cases of this kind, it is perfectly useless. It is useless without qualification. It does nothing. This may surprise a few anti-gun philosophers, but the knowledge that a farmer has a 12-gauge in Saskatchewan or a hunter has a .30-30 in Newfoundland is infinitely irrelevant. It is sublimely without purpose or point for a gang shooting in downtown Toronto or the butchery of a good Samaritan in the Gastown of Vancouver. You know why, of course. The very people who shoot other people as a hobby, a pastime, or a career are, wait for it, the very people who don‘t give a flying fig about registering their wretched handguns in the first place. People who shoot people do not join line-ups to tell police where they stole, smuggled, or bought their guns in the first place.

So now Paul Martin, staring down a billion dollars worth of ludicrously expensive wishful thinking, is about to look into the gun registry. If he doesn‘t scrap it all together, admit it was nothing more than wasteful piety from its very conception, and close it down, we will know he‘s only playing with the issue. It is a waste, he knows it‘s a waste, and a politically correct waste to boot. It‘s a billion dollar bag of perfect uselessness. Let‘s see him act on that knowledge.

For "The National," I‘m Rex Murphy.

 

[matt wright]

Time to throw my two cents in. First of all, I think Canadian gun owners can relax a little. I don‘t know of any police officer who is going out of their way to invade anyone‘s privacy to check up on registration or lack thereof. They are just too busy, for one thing.

Police officers are Canadian citizens as well, and many of them are gunowners when they aren‘t carrying their sidearm at work. They also realize that criminals do not and will not ever, register their fireams.

However, there are some valid motivations behind the implementation of the gun registry. If a firearm is registered, by a law-abiding citizen, and is later stolen in a break-in, then it can be a) entered onto CPIC as stolen,
b) identified as stolen if encountered, even if it has NOT been entered on CPIC ie, it‘s in the hands of a suspicious person and not the registered owner,
c)successfully tracked back to and probably returned to the rightful owner if recovered.

Additionally, the firearms registry is a usefull tool for police officers when responding to a call, if they can check in advance and know that there are firearms in the residence, they can keep that bit of info in the back of their mind. I‘m sure everyone here has probably heard that domestic situations are one of the most potentially volatile encounters a police officer can encounter. Every bit of info gleaned before going into one helps manage the risk. "Time spent in recce is seldom wasted"

I am not for one minute condoning the outrageous cost overuns plagueing the program, and I am not advocating that we take anyone‘s guns away if they are not abusing them. I personally was sad to see collectors get the short end of the stick. I personally know many military members who have turned over their collections of automatic fireams as a result of changes in the legislation.

I am simply proposing that there are merits to a firearm registry. I don‘t look at it as "gun control". I see it as a tool that can be used to help solve crime, and something that needs to be used carefully, not abused.

Comments?

 

[Garry]

Recce,

I don‘t think I‘m going out on a limb when I say that most of us Military types get a long well with most of the Police.

Re: registry- if guns are stolen, the owner can tell you what the serial numbers are- and it won‘t cost anything. (note- if the guns weren‘t registered, you may not get any input- from an othewrwise honest guy)

Re: Arriving at a home, guns?- you do not need to register the guns to know the homeowner has guns- he‘s licenced.

I‘ve got a friend who lost all his guns- he invited a Cop Bud in for coffe, his partner noticed a .303 by the back door, (farmer,predator control, legal!!) and came back the next day...trashed the house. Why should Police be able to sidestep the requirement for a warrant to search gun owners homes? Court case pending, but....

Enforce the laws we have, require personal responsibility- and maybe treat criminals like the societal rejects they really are?

 

[portcullisguy]

To clarify a point made earlier, the amendments to the Criminal Code do not permit the police, or anyone else for that matter, to just waltz in to your home and inspect your firearms for safe storage.

S. 117.04(2) permits search and seizure without warrant because of a risk to public safety, based on reasonable grounds. Although this has not been defined, it is generally held based on precedence that this requires some sort of immediate danger to member of the public.

S. 117.04(1) permits search and seizure, based on reasonable grounds, if possession of a firearm, weapon, prohibited device, ammunition or explosive is not in the best interest of the person or any other person, but this requires a warrant.

As always, search of a dwelling house without warrant is permitted if there are exigent circumstances (read: immediate danger to public safety). This has always been the case, long before the Firearms Act made any amendments to the Criminal Code.

I cannot comment on Michael Moore, or his movies, not having seen any of them. However, I suspect like most people in the media spotlight, he has found a way to manipulate the situation to suit his message (or the message to suit his situation, whichever).

Old School is right, we have had registration of firearms in Canada since 1930, in one form or another.

I think the majority of firearms users object to the need to register long guns.

Long guns are not commonly used in crimes, and therefore it is reasonable to conclude that registering them is simply a "tax" grab (and an ineffective one at that, hence the cost of the registry).

Enzo‘s comment about not supporting Tec-9‘s as a hunting weapon is flippant. Tec-9‘s are, and always have been, a prohibited firearm, and no reasonable sportsman has any wish to see that change. Any Tec-9‘s that are legally owned in Canada have had to be registered, under the 1977 weapons laws, and the Firearms Act made no changes there.

Handgun hunting, on the otherhand, is a legitimate activity that has been banned in Canada for a long time, and law-abiding hunters who take an interest in that aspect of hunting have a reasonable issue with the firearms laws in that regard. But this has nothing to do with the registry.

The fact is a vocal element of Canadian society believes the government should spend more money on healthcare, education, and other social programs. A good number of these same people see no problem (I call them Liberal voters) with the government spending $1 Billion on a firearms registry which will clearly have no more than a marginal benefit to society, since it only adds (non-restricted) long guns to the list of firearms that must be registered, and these firearms have never factored significantly as being used by criminals in the first place. The problem is clear: money is being spent on a program with negligible benefits, and money is badly NEEDED in other programs which have wider impact or benefit. And I haven‘t even included the military, simply because I don‘t think anyone here would disagree that the army needs more money.

Licencing? A totally different issue, and one which I fully support. Sport shooters in Canada should have at least some level of competence, skill, and knowledge of safety before being permitted to own or acquire any kind of firearm. The military has a similar standard, I believe it‘s called a PO check. My dagger on the sleeve of my DEU‘s tells the military community that I am trained to safely use various types of infantry small arms.

But we had licencing long before total gun registration.

Let me leave you with a few words from one of history‘s great supporters of total gun registration:

"This year will go down in history! For the first time, a civilised nation has full gun registration! Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!"
- Adolf Hitler, 15 April 1935.

(Caveat: According to some internet source, this quote is "falsely" attributed to Hitler, but in any event did appear in contemporary publications and in any event makes clear German policy on gun registration, which likely went into effect much earlier under the Weimar Republic)

 

[portcullisguy]

17recce bring up good points, and Garry has excellent counter-points as well.

I wanted to expand on them a bit, from a law enforcement perspective.

CPIC does in fact register stolen property. A lawful firearm owner should know the serial numbers to their firearms anyway, as he points out. However, that‘s academic anyway. If a bad guy steals a hunting rifle or shotgun from your house, he is not likely to have the required licence he‘d need if he was stopped by police and found to be possessing them. He‘d be charged anyway for a licence infraction, and charged again if he were committing a crime, and charged yet again if there was evidence the guns were stolen, and that‘s even before the registry comes into play. Tracing the shotgun or rifle would enable the police to return your stolen firearm to you, but the odds of that happening after the trial are slim to none, and in our current climate, they‘d probably want to charge you for unsafe storage. End result = registration doesn‘t prevent the bad guy from stealing the guns in the first place, nor does it make your guns any more secure. Licencing and other laws have already required you, the owner, to take reasonable steps in ensuring your guns are secure.

Finally, I can think of no more useless information to a police officer than knowing how many guns are registered to a particular individual or address.

If you are a police officer investigating a complaint involving a gun owner, and you run a check on CFRC and find out Bob Gunowner has 3 firearms registered to his address, are you seriously going to ASSUME there are ONLY three firearms at his house? No. Any sensible police officer will keep his mind open to the possibility that there may be many more, or none at all, or somewhere in between.

Likewise, attending an address where NO firearms are registered is equally misleading. Especially if you are attending a complaint of "shots fired" or another violent incident! The fact that a computer tells you there are no guns there doesn‘t change the fact that you, as a cautious police officer, will take reasonable and prudent care in your dealings with that, or any other call for service.

As a cop, are you going to believe a computer, or your observations? Which one is admissible in court?

Registration is a "nice to have" not a need to have, to the front line police officer. It is, like other databases, only an investigative tool which may, at times, assist you. It is not an end-all-be-all answer to crime solving.

 

[Spr.Earl]

It‘s a Joke!!!!
I just got the paper‘s just to see what they whant to know!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It‘s worse than our own Security Clearance !!!!!!

Just because I‘m married I need my wife‘s O.K. to own a rifle!!
It‘s very intrusive and going over board and I don‘t blame the Gun Lobby fighting this one!!!

The question‘s are beyond beliefe!!!!!!!!!!!!