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The Great Gun Control Debate

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Jarnhamar said:
I wouldn't even know where to begin to look for that truthfully.  I know Canadian hunters still get the police called on them when someone witnesses them legally taking their firearm into the bush.

If Canada adopted an open-carry policy for firearms I think our police would be constantly called out every time someone seen a firearm for the next 50 years.
Having had the cops called on you well shooting in the bush, it isn't a fun time. Nothing like spending 50 min arguing with 4 cops who don't know the laws (they were kind enough to send three cruisers). I wasn't even doing anything extreme, just shooting at a local 'gun pit' (been used that way since the 1960s) with a 100 year old bolt action. I had even cleaned up after myself and took out more than I arrived with.

A fun fact is technically according to our laws, open-carry for non-restricted firearms is actually legal provided the firearm is unloaded. That being said, you would have a lot of fun fighting with cops, and spending a ton of money on legal fees as they would likely arrest you and try to throw every charge possible at you.
 
Eaglelord17 said:
A fun fact is technically according to our laws, open-carry for non-restricted firearms is actually legal provided the firearm is unloaded. That being said, you would have a lot of fun fighting with cops, and spending a ton of money on legal fees as they would likely arrest you and try to throw every charge possible at you.

Our Gun Laws can be quite confusing at times.  A museum piece, completely dewaded, is no longer considered a weapon, unless it is used in the commissioning of a crime.  Take for instance a crime committed in Montreal many years ago, where a Armoured Truck was robbed by a gang who pulled up with a van and opened the back doors exposing a M2 .50 Cal HMG.  The weapon, when examined by the Police later, was found to be inoperable; but the Armour Truck guards did not know that when they were facing it. 
 
George Wallace said:
Our Gun Laws can be quite confusing at times.  A museum piece, completely dewaded, is no longer considered a weapon, unless it is used in the commissioning of a crime.  Take for instance a crime committed in Montreal many years ago, where a Armoured Truck was robbed by a gang who pulled up with a van and opened the back doors exposing a M2 .50 Cal HMG.  The weapon, when examined by the Police later, was found to be inoperable; but the Armour Truck guards did not know that when they were facing it.

And don't forget that if you have a replica of a firearm it is illegal, however a dewat isn't a replica since at one point it was a firearm.

I went into the dollar store the other day and saw a bunch of prohibited devices on the shelves. They had toy blow guns and toy nunchuks, both of which if the law on those were enforced are just as bad as having a illegal full auto in your possession.
 
Eaglelord17 said:
And don't forget that if you have a replica of a firearm it is illegal, however a dewat isn't a replica since at one point it was a firearm.

Sorry, could you elaborate about the part of having a replica gun is illegal?
 
Retired AF Guy said:
Sorry, could you elaborate about the part of having a replica gun is illegal?

As much as I hate referencing the RCMP page, I couldn't find it in the laws when I did my quick search.
http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/fs-fd/replica-replique-eng.htm
This second link deals with transferring and using replica firearms
http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-98-208/page-1.html#h-14
 
PuckChaser said:
6-8 hours of handgun training sounds like more than most CAF members get before they carry the Browning overseas, judging by all the NDs.

Thats a good freaking point.  I know the first time I fired a 9mm it was "here's a nine mil, go the range."
 
CombatMacgyver said:
That's a good freaking point.  I know the first time I fired a 9mm it was "here's a nine mil, go the range."

All true, but there was probably a well qualified RSO in attendance at the range with the requisite med team and ambulance as back up.  [:D
 
Eaglelord17 said:
As much as I hate referencing the RCMP page, I couldn't find it in the laws when I did my quick search.
http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/fs-fd/replica-replique-eng.htm
This second link deals with transferring and using replica firearms
http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-98-208/page-1.html#h-14

Thanks for the info. I didn't realize that replica firearms were prohibted; learn something new every day.
 
Retired AF Guy said:
Thanks for the info. I didn't realize that replica firearms were prohibted; learn something new every day.

Its actually quite surprising all the things they fit into the regulations. Ban on Nunchuks, Morning Stars, shurikens, Blow guns, etc. All things people wouldn't expect, however they are in the laws.
 
Canada's gun laws are a mess, the majority of "unsafe storage" charges are dropped or tossed as the definition is so difficult to understand. Also police and Crown prosecutors forget thee is another legal state of a gun, they think a gun is either in storage or transport, however the courts are clear that a gun can be "in use" in which case the sections dealing with transport or storage do not apply.

As for the other prohibited items,  swear the Liberals were watching to many Ninga movies at the time they came up with stinking bowel of crap they call the Firearms Act.
 
Those other items were prohibited by Trudeau I in 1978, not by the Chretien/Rock Firearms Act.

Shortly after prohibiting them, Trudeau I and family went on a holiday somewhere in South America. One of his sons was holding a blow gun in a photograph of them upon return.

To further worsen an already bad situation, several court decisions in the last couple of years have determined that a "thing" (generally a firearm or something related) is not necessarily what it is, but what it could become. They have not yet projected that to copper piping (blow guns) or galvanized fence posts (Sten gun receivers) or broom handles and lightweight chain (nunchuks) yet, but the logic is the same.
 
Not a fan of open carry.  It is legal in my state, but I do not do it (the only time I open carry is in my Police uniform).
  However, I have been the "victim" of a "man with a gun" call to 911.
Walking to my hotel (was doing a course) from my MARKED POLICE CAR
In my POLICE UNIFORM - carrying my plates (with POLICE in LARGE letters), and rifle.

Get to room, dropping gear on bed - and had a knock at the door.
  "hey Kevin you seen anyone else here with a gun"

So imagine if I had not had the marked unit - or the guys who came, knew me and recognized the car from earlier in the day...

I am very cautious around open carry folks -- because one never knows...
 
I have seen guys carrying around my office here in Vancouver, if it's in a holster and the guy has the "look" I will assume it's a cop, which is a fairly safe bet as we are close to the courthouse. If I spotted a guy with a gun but without a holster, I would move a safe distance and make a call.

I am glad we don't have open carry, I would feel obliged to drop a lot of money on a nice embroidered holster and a nice looking gun. 
 
I just stumbled upon this at http://calibremag.ca/e-petition-e-111-the-ar-15-awakens/:

The Petition is open for signature until May 7, 2016, at 3:39 p.m. (EDT)

https://petitions.parl.gc.ca/en/Petition/Details?Petition=e-111

"Petition to the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

Whereas:

•The current firearm legislation classifies the semi-auto Armalite Rifle - 15 and variants as restricted when there is no inherent difference between it and that of hundreds or thousands of other firearms in Canada which have been, in due process, classified as non-restricted;

•The restriction on the AR-15 and its variants prohibits the use of this semi-automatic modern sporting rifle from being used for lawful purposes such as hunting;

•This rifle has been ultimately restricted purely because of cosmetic appearance of the rifle which does not make the rifle more dangerous. It has been assembled with modern day materials (plastic & aluminium) and that shouldn't be the merit to base a rifle for restricted classification as there are thousands of other rifles like it used on a day to day basis for legitimate purposes;

•This rifle is the most versatile hunting rifle in the world. The calibre can easily be changed to meet lawful provincial hunting requirements from small game to big game animals without the need to purchase multiple gaming rifles; and

•The Armalite Rifle - 15 was in fact legal to hunt with before the mid 1990's firearm classification changes and we hunters would like that opportunity restored.

We, the undersigned, Lawful Firearm Owners of Canada, request (or call upon) the Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness to Re-classify the Armalite Rifle - 15 back to non-restricted status so we can once again use this rifle to lawfully participate in the Canadian cultural practices of hunting."
 
I can see the response now; "You are absolutely 100% correct in your assertion that AR variant rifles are no different than any of the other semi automatic rifles in non restricted use in Canada.  It is therefore our new policy that all semi automatic rifles in Canada are now reclassified as restricted\prohibited, based on colour and materials used in their construction.  Thank you for bringing this imbalance to our attention."
 
It is a stupid petition. Stupid being that it really doesn't address what our first and only goal since C-68 was enacted should be.

Take the prohibited by name class and destroy it (would also as a side effect remove the AR-15 from the restricted category). Remove it from the books. The fact is the prohibited by name class is how the politicians can ban literally every firearm in Canada without a law change, and they are not required to compensate you either. It isn't sexy and the politicians don't like that (because it takes the power out of there hands) but until this is accomplished, everything else isn't worth fighting for.
 
It is sometimes easier to get small things done than big things, and small things add up over time.

There should be no "prohibited" class in the first place, whether by name or any other reason, nor anything like the Firearms Act/C-68.

Putting one's name to this petition costs nothing. It will most likely achieve nothing either, but it will not hurt.
 
Here's two large articles.  It looks like the RCMP is hell bent of not only getting rid of semi-automatic rifles but doing it in a very underhanded way.

The first article talks about how Justin Bourque told the RCMP that he considered turning his Chinese Norinco M305 (basically an M14) into a full auto gun. Justin decided it was a stupid idea but the RCMP used it to launch into a crusade against rifles they say can easily be converted to full auto.
The next article picks it apart and points out why it's inconsistent and bullshit.

I'm looking for the list I seen of the rifles tested and accused of being easily converted to full-auto but it included all ARs and all semi-automatic versions of military style assault rifles.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/rcmp-rifle-upgrades-semi-automatic-1.3400423
The number of military-style firearms that can be temporarily jury-rigged to become automatic weapons has increased "dramatically" in Canada over the last decade — and so has the public-safety risk.

That's the stark conclusion of an internal RCMP laboratory report on improvised methods for upgrading semi-automatic weapons, and for illegally altering magazine clips to allow for rapid continuous fire.

The lab report notes that Criminal Code regulations designed to thwart makeshift upgrades may not apply to newer generations of weapons, creating a legal void.
Media placeholder

"The restricted and prohibited firearm provisions of Criminal Code regulations were last updated in 1995, and there are presently numerous models of military and paramilitary firearms on the Canadian market which are outside the scope of the Criminal Code regulations, many being non-restricted in classification," says the 15-page report.

"The Canadian introduction of new types of military and paramilitary firearms not mentioned in the Criminal Code regulations, nearly all with large capacity magazines sizes, started circa 2005 and has accelerated since."

"The public safety threat posed by improvised conversion to full automatic fire has correspondingly increased."
Ralph Goodale

Public Safety Minister Ralph Goodale will be reviewing Canada's gun legislation to restore decision-making about restricted weapons to the RCMP rather than leaving it to cabinet. (CBC)

A heavily censored version of the internal report, dated November 2014, was obtained by CBC News under the Access to Information Act.

CBC News has previously reported on the RCMP's concerns about improvised assault-weapon upgrades, an issue raised by RCMP Commissioner Bob Paulson directly with then public safety minister Steven Blaney last year. But the detailed Mountie lab work documenting the issue was released only in the last week.

Last summer, Blaney rejected legislative changes to close any regulatory gap, saying the current law was sufficient. The Conservative government also passed Bill C-42 giving cabinet — not the RCMP — the final say about which weapons to restrict or ban, after the Mounties were slapped down for trying to get a popular semi-automatic withdrawn from Canada.
Some rifles could be banned

But the new Liberal government has promised to "put decision-making about weapons restrictions back into the hands of police, not politicians," raising the possibility the RCMP may yet be able to get some semi-automatics taken off the market.

A Mountie spokesman, Sgt. Harold Pfleiderer, would not say whether the RCMP is pressing the new Public Safety Minister Ralph Goodale to act on the issue. "The RCMP does not comment on the advice it provides to the minister," he said in an email.

A spokesman for Goodale reiterated the Liberal government's commitment to get "assault weapons off our streets," but said consultations are needed first.

    'We will work ... to move forward on this commitment.'
    –Spokesman for Public Safety Minister Ralph Goodale

"We will work with all levels of government, our stakeholders and the Canadian Firearms Advisory Committee to move forward on this commitment," said Scott Bardsley.

Among the Liberals' election commitments is to broaden membership of the firearms committee to include representatives of women's groups and public-health advocates. Critics have said the committee is stacked with gun proponents.

The RCMP lab tested 11 models of rifles and one pistol, including the weapon used by Marc Lepine in the 1989 Montreal massacre and the semi-automatic used by Justin Bourque in the 2014 Mountie shootings in Moncton, N.B.

The testing was prompted by Bourque's statement to police that he had considered using an improvised technique to turn his rifle into an automatic weapon.

The report says more than 1,200 test shots were fired between July and November 2014, using a technique that is "widely reported on the internet complete with installation and fitting instructions." The name of the technique is blacked out in the documents, but has been known in gun circles for decades, and information about at least one other technique also circulates.
New firearms on market

The Criminal Code regulations in the 1990s effectively protected against any upgrades "by taking the firearms most practical for conversion to full automatic fire off the civilian market," says the document, authored by Murray A. Smith, manager with the RCMP Canadian Firearms Program.

"Thus, the public safety risk posed by improvised conversion techniques was largely negated and rendered moot, and not requiring much police attention."

But the proliferation of new firearms since 2005 has increased the risk to the public, augmented by the availability of new magazines.
Soldier Deaths 20141021

RCMP Commissioner Bob Paulson alerted then public safety minister Steven Blaney last year to potential legislative gaps in Criminal Code gun provisions. (Sean Kilpatrick/Canadian Press)

"Large capacity magazines are widely available for the military and paramilitary firearms, and although limited in capacity by law and generally reduced to five shots by a pin or similar modification, the original capacity is typically readily restorable."

"The materials required for improvised full automatic fire are ordinary everyday products."

Upgrading any weapon to fully automatic status is clearly prohibited by Section 102(1) of the Criminal Code, with prison terms of up to 10 years. But Smith's report raises questions about the current effectiveness of 20-year-old Criminal Code regulations as they apply to newer weapons shown in lab tests to be "amenable to the improvised full automatic fire


http://calibremag.ca/rcmp-study-proves-police-playing-politics/
The RCMP have released more details from their Feasibility and Practicality of Improvised Full Automatic Fire study first discussed in October. Although a copy of the report has not been made available to Calibre as yet, we have requested it through the Access to Information office, but the CBC has additional details.

The long and short of the CBC article is the allegation that 11 rifles and one handgun can be converted to fully automatic fire through an improvised technique referred to by Moncton shooter Justin Bourque. Bourque claims to have considered using the technique while planning his shooting spree, but even the mentally unhinged Bourque found it too unreliable and ineffective to employ.

However, that hasn’t stopped the RCMP from considering the technique a grave concern to public safety, and the report has been forwarded to the Minister of Public Safety, Ralph Goodale. According to the CBC article, Goodale’s office responded to the report thusly: “We will work with all levels of government, our stakeholders and the Canadian Firearms Advisory Committee to move forward on this commitment.”

Not surprisingly, the study of a technique introduced to the RCMP by a deranged psychopath is rife with inconsistencies, as the RCMP report alleges that the availability of firearms that can be improvised to fire in a fully automatic condition is a new problem, saying “The restricted and prohibited firearm provisions of Criminal Code regulations were last updated in 1995, and there are presently numerous models of military and paramilitary firearms on the Canadian market which are outside the scope of the Criminal Code regulations, many being non-restricted in classification” and “The Canadian introduction of new types of military and paramilitary firearms not mentioned in the Criminal Code regulations, nearly all with large capacity magazines sizes, started circa 2005 and has accelerated since.”

That claim runs amiss of the RCMP’s own classification data, as the RCMP claim that the Norinco M305 used by Bourque (designed in the 1930s, imported into Canada in the 1980’s) and even more tellingly, the Ruger Mini 14 (designed in the late 1960s and first imported in 1973) used by Polytechnique shooter Marc Lepine are both among the 11 rifles found to be susceptible to this improvised technique. But both firearms were extant in Canada in 1995, during the initial creation of the Criminal Code regulations, and both firearms were studied, tested, examined and classified by the RCMP as non-restricted in that process. Neither have been significantly updated since nor have their magazines been revised. Until we receive a copy of the report from our own ATIP request, we cannot confirm the identification of the other 11 rifles on the list, but given the volume of new FRT entries issued for legitimately new rifle designs we suspect the majority of those 11 rifles were similarly classified in 1995.

As a result, the only conclusion one can reach from the incorrect statement that this issue stems largely from firearms imported and classified under Harper’s Conservatives, is that the RCMP are hoping to win the sympathies of the Liberal government by pinning this perceived problem on the previous Conservative government. By claiming rifles classified by their own firearms program in 1995 somehow became problematic in 2005, the RCMP are essentially sidestepping any culpability themselves, while simultaneously discrediting the former government.

But all that said, the biggest issue is that the entire report is essentially the study of a complete non-issue, as Criminal Code Section 102(1) clearly states that converting a firearm to fully automatic status is entirely illegal. Additionally, the insinuation that the RCMP would like to act upon the outcome of this report due to the fact that “the public safety threat posed by improvised conversion to full automatic fire has correspondingly increased,” makes little to no sense since their claim that this “threat to public safety” has been festering since 2005 seems to run contrary with the number of violent shootings involving fully automatic rifles grabbing headlines since 2005: None.

 
>The number of military-style firearms that can be temporarily jury-rigged to become automatic weapons has increased "dramatically" in Canada over the last decade — and so has the public-safety risk.

If a decade has passed without a rash of firefights involving jury-rigged automatic weapons owned by someone other than gang-bangers, the lack of meaningful "public safety risk" has been demonstrated.
 
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