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The Glue Factory Corral, Tired Old Horses That Just Won't Die

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Honestly, this thread about dead horses is only 12 hours old and it has already become one.

I would add the seemingly poisonous debate between "young" and "old" people. Broadly categorizing age groups is crap. Good ideas/points are not restricted to a particular age group. In the same token, B.S is not monopolized by any particular group. An aim of this thread is to not just state things that are too broad and general, using "thats the way it is and if you don't agree with me you're ____" reasoning, or "you are ____, so you must be this ___"

[Edit]
Everybody have a look at this comment by Pbi in another thread
http://army.ca/forums/threads/26268/post-162995.html#msg162995
 
George Wallace said:
Torlyn may agree with you, but personally I find your comment pompous and insulting.

Perhaps I should clarify...  After starting here as a self-proclaimed Ninja-Sniper (Hi, Infanteer!!) I did eventually come to my senses, and I've spent a lot of time sitting back and learning from those who have experience.  Speaking for myself alone, I know that this site has helped shaped the expectations of my future career in the CF, and that if this board has taught me nothing else, it's that I need to listen to those who have been there longer, regardless of my (hopefully) impending commision as a Ocdt and 2lt DEO.  Rank and education mean sweet bugger all, you need to learn from those who have the knowledge.  I think Pieman had it right when he said that while we (the "ninja-snipers" newbies) need to sit back and listen to what the grizzled veterans say (Worn Out Grunt, cudos to you) we also don't want to be ignored or slagged for our lack of experience, UNLESS we're spouting off more than we can chew.  I mean, those of us that have gotten degrees and still wish to pursue the military are doing so in order to apply that education, in order to help/promote the CF.  (At least, I know the Abecedarian Alliance is)

In effect, I want to make the disclaimer that while I will immediately (well, the improved Torlyn) bow down to any knowledge that comes from the "inside", I also don't want the education that I worked my ass off for belittled for being "just" an education.  (I'm not saying anyone has done this personally, just a general observation.)

So, I guess it eventually comes down to the golden rule.  If all members, current, ex, or wanna-be's could strive to live in the other's shoes, I think that we will all be much better served. 

On a side note, bossi, I almost had beer snort out of my nose reading that post...  :)  Cheers!

T
 
Torlyn said:
In effect, I want to make the disclaimer that while I will immediately (well, the improved Torlyn) bow down to any knowledge that comes from the "inside", I also don't want the education that I worked my ass off for belittled for being "just" an education. (I'm not saying anyone has done this personally, just a general observation.)

Conversely, many don't want to have their 20-30 years of military experience, in which they've been deployed to countless shitholes around the globe, dismissed by someone who read a few books on the topic.

Naturally, the hope is that everybody will temper their experience with education (it seemed that way when I was there, but that was only one specific instance, and a look at the larger picture suggests....) and their education with experience (this guy/theory/book says X, but I've seen it first hand and it's wrong....).   I've got a tiny bit of both, and I try to do this "tempering" when I make a comment.   It will be the same for most members of this forum to varying degrees and we need to respect those degrees of experience and education and to be understanding when someone points out where our own effort of "tempering" falls short.

Anyways, moving along, most of the "bunfighting" seems to be tied up to threads in the "Politics" forums or threads of a political nature in the "Current Affairs" forums.   Any threads that are the true focus of this site, namely professional discussions of military matters, seem to be the best off because they contain genuine input, serious debate, and - even when there is vehement disagreement - a learning process for everyone who reads it.  

Perhaps, realizing that most political discussions will naturally devolve into an ideological trench war, as an experiment we should all make a conscious effort to avoid Politics for a month on this Board and see how the "atmosphere" is affected.   For the month of February, whenever someone starts a political spin-cycle, all I will contribute is a "Bah, Politics" statement.   If most of us can do this, hopefully the tension will die down and we can contribute more energy to threads like "Up From the Ranks", "The Infantry of Tomorrow", and "Deep Thoughts on Transformation", to name a few.

As well, to promote professional discussion and debate, everytime you feel the need to post an news article on how George Bush sucks, Michael Moore's weight, or the latest Liberal circus-act INSTEAD, find an article on a military topic that interests you and read it.   You can find them all over the place - use Military Journals, military.com commentary, Op/Eds, or papers from Staff Colleges.   Read an article and post it along with the link.   Offer your viewpoint on the article...heck if your inexperienced or a civilian, post the article with a list of questions so that you and others can get answers.

Anyways, these aren't going to ever be rules, because we don't wish to constrain the discussion here.   However, these may be some creative ways to avoid alot of the tension that occurs here and put that energy into informed professional debate and discussion.

Cheers,
Infanteer.
 
I would add the seemingly poisonous debate between "young" and "old" people. Broadly categorizing age groups is crap. Good ideas/points are not restricted to a particular age group

Somebody is going to say this so I might as well and hopefully get the point across without ruffling too many feathers...

Quite honestly I don't think that age (although I'm just as guilty for mentioning it!) education, future career desires (no matter how far fetched) or any of the other "conditions" that are used to heatedly point out the shortcomings of another member of the forum who has "transgressed" in some way are the basis for getting chewed on.

Over and over again the one thing that always sets the seniors(and lots of the juniors too!) off is coming onto the forum and creating an adverserial atmosphere when posting. I personally speak (well write actually) with lots of folks here who aren't members of the regular force...or even the CF, on a regular basis. I enjoy the chats and look forward to the next set of conversations to take place. That being said we aren't out to push one-another's buttons!

How you are treated here has a great deal to do with how you go about presenting yourself to others. Its been my experience on this site that the only people to get "chewed on" are the ones who arrive with a bone to pick, or set out to consciously test the patience of others. Quite honestly the only time that any of the "age/TI/reg/reserve/cadet ( or any other mitigating condition) is used is to demonstraight that so-and-so is in a certain situation or age group or rank and would be better to sit back and learn rather than start a war over the smallest of ideas or thoughts (Whether right or wrong)

If you enter into a discussion in the spirit of learning and enjoying the general banter that takes place here you will enjoy yourself immensely...But rubbing peoples noses in the fact that you have an education and nobody else does will not get you points or make friends!

Points to ponder. Think on it...

Slim
 
vangemeren said:
Honestly, this thread about dead horses is only 12 hours old and it has already become one.

I would add the seemingly poisonous debate between "young" and "old" people. Broadly categorizing age groups is crap. Good ideas/points are not restricted to a particular age group. In the same token, B.S is not monopolized by any particular group. An aim of this thread is to not just state things that are too broad and general, using "thats the way it is and if you don't agree with me you're ____" reasoning, or "you are ____, so you must be this ___"

[Edit]
Everybody have a look at this comment by Pbi in another thread
http://army.ca/forums/threads/26268/post-162995.html#msg162995

Indeed.   Some good points.   Pbi's reference is a good addition.

Torlyn, you have indeed come a long way and now contribute much more credible discussion.

Clarity is what some of our discussions lack in some instances, setting off a bun fight or two, which have potential of escalating.   In a few cases it can be a nice diversion, and if we can get back on topic, make for some rather intellectual sparing.   In other cases, we have found that it is better for the Moderator or originator of the Topic to lock it.   I guess some of us would not make 'Clarica Agents'.

I do find some comments as: "I have (such and such) degree", "I am_____________",   "Give me written references_____________" as a defence to newspaper articles, and such to be rather short sighted.   I have nothing against "young" and "educated", but I do have a problem with shortsighted posters, and trolls, who don't think anyone is as smart as they are, who don't think anyone else could have received a Degree or education, who are arrogant enought to think that they should belong in MENSA, and no one else could survive in a debate with them.   When we refer to the "young" is is usually more a comment on lack of experience, rather than lack of education or IQ.  

Many of the 'Senior' posters here do loose their patience when a new Topic is started on something that is in a thread only two down from the top, by someone who posted without looking at other topics first.  If someone comes onto the forum and asks a question, without searching, about a topic that has run its' course and had excellent posts, it gets rather annoying after five or six or many more.  That "Are we there Yet?" or "I got to Go to the Bathroom!" type of question found on those long drives in short order can only be tolerated for so long before someone snaps.  Part of that "experience thing" we go on about, I guess.

There are many 'Older' posters on this forum who are "Published".  There are many "Older" posters on this forum who have Degrees, sometimes multipule Degrees.  There are many on this forum who have years of invaluable "experience".  They do not necessarily 'always' go about flaunting their credentials.  They do, however, become very annoyed and defensive when a person comes into the forums with self important and self righteous ideas trying to dictate a point that doesn't belong on a site like this.  Sometimes these people are ROTL and too Thick, but do provide some enjoyment in the sparing that can take place as a form of diversive entertainment before they are dispatched or ignored. 

I must admit that on this site, like any other site, Posers and Trolls get one of two reactions:   Ignored or treated like fish in a barrel and quickly dispatched.   Like LGen Mattis said sometimes "it's quite fun to fight them, you know. It's a hell of a hoot,"

I have rambled on too much, but then we are stacking the Dead Horses into quite a heap for a short span of intellectual disertation.

GW
 
  think Pieman had it right when he said that while we (the "ninja-snipers" newbies) need to sit back and listen to what the grizzled veterans say (Worn Out Grunt, cudos to you) we also don't want to be ignored or slagged for our lack of experience, UNLESS we're spouting off more than we can chew.   I mean, those of us that have gotten degrees and still wish to pursue the military are doing so in order to apply that education, in order to help/promote the CF.   (At least, I know the Abecedarian Alliance is)

Very true Torlyn, things were quite a lot worse before you showed up though. The Army.ca board has grown and improved a lot in the past 8 months or so. The biggest change in the atmosphere here that I noticed was back when the Warning system was put into effect. Things went from being a cowboy bar fight scene to a more 'tempered' one almost right away. Among many other positive changes that happened since. Contributing to the forum, learning, and discussing hot topics is much easier and more productive.Thus with the combination of all those positive changes, the Ninja Snipers were allowed to rest, and were sent off to the glue factory.

Hopefully many of the other 'dead horses' discussed here will be sent there too. Then I think this board will have achieved a very high level of professionalism that I know the staff is working hard to improve and maintain.
 
pbi's reference is right on the money, as are Britney Spears' and Infanteer's responses to it. And as much as they got it bang on, I can't help but re-iterate their comments (though likely with less finesse).

One of the biggest draws to Army.ca (and one of my stated goals) is that it provides neutral ground for all ranks, trades, components etc to come together and speak directly and candidly on topics concerning the Canadian Army (specifically) and military matters (in general). Potential recruits can benefit from the wisdom of operationally experienced WOs while LCols can hear the straight good from the boots on the ground.

About a 18 months ago, we actually started to achieve that goal. Prior to that, the site was highly segmented into "the riff-raff" and "the regulars" (not necessarily Regulars). But then we started to get serious about our direction. We built up a cadre of professional staff to mimic the diverse nature of our visitors, created formal conduct guidelines, a warning system etc. In my opinion, this has worked very well.

Unfortunately, we seem to be heading back to the old hierarchical system where new users are becoming disconnected from the expertise on the site. I don't think I'd be too far off the mark to say that nobody is very happy with this. As tensions and tempers rise, I've noticed new members, senior members and staff alike taking pot shots at each other. So far this has been fairly sporadic, but I want to head it off before it becomes much harder to deal with.

I'll point only one finger of blame here, at myself. I have allowed (actively or passively) some of the original qualities of Army.ca to erode over time. In some cases I've taken the easy route, turning a blind eye and thereby condoning actions outside the Conduct Guidelines.

The Staff are saddled with a job that continues to be frustrating and challenging, yet they tackle it with such enthusiasm and effectiveness I cannot thank them enough. So let me be clear that if things have taken a turn for the worse it is because I have been a bit of an absentee owner at times.

We have come too far to jeopardize it over a few heated arguments, so this is where things turn around. On the surface, it may seem like a big task: how do we continue to keep the trolls and troublemakers out without taking a bit of collateral damage once in a while? How can we maintain the quality and professionalism that everyone has worked so hard to achieve without constraining ourselves to the point where truly interesting debate is impossible?

The answer is simple, and it's been here all along: The Conduct Guidelines

We have taken great care to create them in such a way that they give Staff the power to deal with problems while protecting the ability to argue rationally, even if it becomes a heated debate. So to summarize, we simply need to apply the Conduct Guidelines fairly and uniformly. No-one is above a warning if their actions are inappropriate. If the Conduct Guidelines need to be adjusted to suit our changing situation, then so be it.

This is no great revelation, as I'm merely restating what has been said above: all users here will be judged, applauded or warned based on their contributions. That is irregardless of age, rank, social standing, education, number of posts, trade etc. As a user, your reception here is wholly contingent on how you present yourself. Your tone, the completeness of your profile, and the facts used to back up your statements are what is primarily going to determine the length and quality of your stay here.

I have no doubt we can maintain the environment that has drawn all of us here. That is, one of courteous professionalism, where new recruits can ask original questions freely, and senior members can fill in the blanks for those seeking information. With all the professional, helpful and experienced users we have here, it would be a shame to either drive them away, or exclude the audience of new recruits who can most benefit from their guidance. We have every right to be proud of what we have all built here and I for one wish to guard it jealously from being diluted.

As a preliminary step, I recommend that when anyone steps out of line with their comments, instead of exacerbating the situation with name calling or deliberately provocative digs, direct the user to this post, or to the Conduct Guidelines. If it's something you think the Staff need to see, use the "report to moderator" feature.

And lastly, if anyone has any questions or concerns about how things are handled, please don't hesitate to ask me, publicly or privately. We all have to accept our share of responsibility for what Army.ca is and what it will become through our efforts.


Cheers
Mike

P.S. This topic itself is a good example. It has developed into an interesting little debate in it's own right, and I might add, a near textbook one. People are taking sides, creating a coherent defence, and sometimes even adjusting their point of view in the face of a well formed argument. The best part is, nobody has resorted to name calling or pouting.
 
The bottom line is, without younger generations questioning the values and conventions held by elder generations, no social progress would ever be made...

Respect is a two way street - for the younger members to give it inherently, they also have to receive it in return...
 
CivU said:
Respect is a two way street - for the younger members to give it inherently, they also have to receive it in return...

...and vica versa.
 
CivU said:
The bottom line is, without younger generations questioning the values and conventions held by elder generations, no social progress would ever be made...

You're basing that on the fact that all social progress is made by youth, which is a pretty big assumption. At what point do youth stop contributing to social progress and become part of the elder generation?
 
Change is generally brought about by younger generations, I'll give you an example.

Presently in Canada about 50-60% of the population supports same-sex marriage legislation; however, in persons under 30, that figure is above 80%.  Social progress is a product of questioning the norms that are in place because of a generation that supported those notions...
 
CivU said:
Change is generally brought about by younger generations, I'll give you an example.

Presently in Canada about 50-60% of the population supports same-sex marriage legislation; however, in persons under 30, that figure is above 80%.   Social progress is a product of questioning the norms that are in place because of a generation that supported those notions...

Of course you have a reference for those Stats, I'm under 30 and I know lots of people that are, I would suggest those stats aren't entirely accurate.

Change is not brought on by teenagers, if you're talking "younger generations" as being young adults 20-30, then I would suggest they're not exactly the youth of the day, but educated adults with some life's experiences. I don't count fresh out of post-secondary idealists as having a whole lot of life's experiences, in any case, no more than every other university/college kid that's ever walked through the doors. You can afford to be an idealist in university, afterwards the reality of life sets it, idealism doesn't put groceries in the fridge and you do what you can to be a productive member of society and take care of yourself and your family.
 
Presently in Canada about 50-60% of the population supports same-sex marriage legislation; however, in persons under 30, that figure is above 80%.  Social progress is a product of questioning the norms that are in place because of a generation that supported those notions...

Oh heavens, another whopper......

Please back up your claims with references. The stats I've seen differ with your claim.


Remember, social progress to one is social degredation to another.
 
Change is generally brought about by younger generations, I'll give you an example.

Presently in Canada about 50-60% of the population supports same-sex marriage legislation; however, in persons under 30, that figure is above 80%.  Social progress is a product of questioning the norms that are in place because of a generation that supported those notions...
CivU, I think this is one of the dead horses we were talking about. <Pieman checks horse's pulse>...Yea, I am pretty sure that its toast...but if it does come back to life and kick you, let us know....
 
CivU said:
Change is generally brought about by younger generations, I'll give you an example.

Presently in Canada about 50-60% of the population supports same-sex marriage legislation; however, in persons under 30, that figure is above 80%.   Social progress is a product of questioning the norms that are in place because of a generation that supported those notions...

Depends on your definition of "progress" doesn't it.
 
Inch said:
Of course you have a reference for those Stats, I'm under 30 and I know lots of people that are, I would suggest those stats aren't entirely accurate.

Change is not brought on by teenagers, if you're talking "younger generations" as being young adults 20-30, then I would suggest they're not exactly the youth of the day, but educated adults with some life's experiences. I don't count fresh out of post-secondary idealists as having a whole lot of life's experiences, in any case, no more than every other university/college kid that's ever walked through the doors. You can afford to be an idealist in university, afterwards the reality of life sets it, idealism doesn't put groceries in the fridge and you do what you can to be a productive member of society and take care of yourself and your family.

Not all people in post secondary are idealists, nor do they all lack life experience. Perhaps when it comes to the military they do because no one can join when they are 2. If everyone would just stop automatically judging someone on their age or education I think that it would help the forums. Just because you are formally educated doesn't mean you lack life experience and just because you have no formal education doesn't mean you lack intelligence. Respect is a two way street and it must be earned, by young and old.
 
Torlyn said:
I mean, those of us that have gotten degrees and still wish to pursue the military are doing so in order to apply that education, in order to help/promote the CF.   (At least, I know the Abecedarian Alliance is)

I compeletely agree that we have to listen to our elders because there can be alot to learn from their experience. In Civie world and especially in the military world if you want to make it.

The reason why I quoted this is because
#1) Are you going to have book smarts or actual life education along with book smarts?
I find there are alot of people boasting themselves with degrees and cr*p, good for you.  You spent a pile of money to try and become leaders.  Yes i'm a little bitter.  I have a diploma and I also have 10 years experience in industry learning first hand in civ world (trades and business). And I've seen it over and over,  some newbie trying to strut there stuff and when a plan fails,  it's all good because they have a degree and nooooooo experience.
I was asked how I would like to join as an officer right there in my interview.  By a senior officer whom I listened to and respected because of how he got to where he is. Plus I wasn't there because i wanted to blow smoke up his a$$ either.   Lots of people look for free rides and personally I think officers should come from the ranks and no free ride.   I've seen that in a different format for a utility where engineers come up from the grunts and become known around the world. And who teaches these newbie grunts and ejumacates them?? And trains them company specific? ei) the way their perception of "standard" is, are the ones that were once grunts themselves. Why not have a better retention rate?  You want to go to RMC?? Sign up as a grunt...and we'll see if you should go or not.  That's my thinking.

They earned to be where they are today.   But hey that's just my opinion.

Just a little rant.hehehe Nothing personal...just making a point.

-Buzz  
 
camochick said:
Not all people in post secondary are idealists, nor do they all lack life experience. Perhaps when it comes to the military they do because no one can join when they are 2. If everyone would just stop automatically judging someone on their age or education I think that it would help the forums. Just because you are formally educated doesn't mean you lack life experience and just because you have no formal education doesn't mean you lack intelligence. Respect is a two way street and it must be earned, by young and old.

I agree, I didn't say anything about formally educated people lacking life's experience nor did I say lack of education equates to lack of intelligence. Life's experience in the world is gained by living it, it can't be taught and someone that goes from their parent's house straight to college really doesn't have a whole lot of time to acquire said experience. I don't judge based on education or life's experience or lack thereof, and I'm bothered by the implication that most senior members on the board do judge based on those things.
 
I never meant to imply that all senior members on the board judge people(sorry if that is how my post came across). I think at times we all judge even thought we try hard not too, this goes for senior members and newbies. I do agree that life experience is learned obviously through life and that the older you get the more you acquire(well we hope , some people still seem to lack maturity when they are "older"). I guess like I said before, if respect is had for all then the boards will remain as great as they are.  ;D
 
So, to sum up the thread, we've come to a few conclusions.

1. This poor horse hasn't just been beaten to death, it's on it's way to the hot dog/dog food factory.
2.  Most everyone is here for a common goal.
3.  We'd all get along better if we respected each other, regardless of backgrounds.  Defer where deference is necessary.
4.  When ninja-snipers come flying around, perhaps not engaging them would serve the board better.  As was stated earlier, forward them to this topic.
5.  This thread is a brilliant example of how our discussions should be taking place, calmly, without any personal attacks, and by offering verifiable sources of information (er, so maybe a post or two missed this part, but c'est la vie.)
6.  Seriously, Seabiscuit is dead.  Let's let him be.  ;)

T
 
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