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The Caledonia, Ontario Superthread.

This whole thread has been VERY educational in more ways than you can imagine.


Piper said:
My comment regarding billy-clubs and tear gas still stands. With the addition of C7 covering fire (the bullet's ain't rubber) and some armoured support from nearby CF units. The natives have attacked police, broken laws, vandalised and the Mohawk Warriors are moving in and getting involved (being the bunch of criminal terrorists they are).

GO!!!! is right, this is no longer protest or civil disobidience. It is domestic terrorism.

Piper, think about what you are saying and advocating.  remember a time and place where minor criminals were beaten for stealing (1993 Somalia???), to be made an example of, and the wider implications it had on the CF.  Two young guys named Kyle Brown and Clayton Matchee that thought the way you do, "bust heads!!" would sort things out.  Remember the implications this had in Canada and for the CF.  All it would take is one young eager troop (on ether side) to turn this current blockade into a huge mess. 
I am glad troops like you have officers and discipline.  Without it where would we be?  My guess is the Canadian public would disband the whole cF.

 
I think the gist of the sentiments around here are that if people are actively engaged in criminal activity they should be immediately apprehended and brought to trial in order to keep the peace and prevent further crime.  Quit comparing this to Somalia or Ipperwash.  That was years ago and this is now. 
 
UberCree said:
This whole thread has been VERY educational in more ways than you can imagine.


Piper, think about what you are saying and advocating.  remember a time and place where minor criminals were beaten for stealing (1993 Somalia???), to be made an example of, and the wider implications it had on the CF.  Two young guys named Kyle Brown and Clayton Matchee that thought the way you do, "bust heads!!" would sort things out. 
Not really.

Clayton Matchee beat Shidane Arone to death in a sandbag bunker. This was not an act of "setting an example" it was an act of a sick man in a situation I doubt many of us can imagine. There was no agenda there, just one guy, acting alone, in the dark.

Remember the implications this had in Canada and for the CF. 
That faceless bureaucrats were permitted to cut a viable unit and capability as a cost saving measure by accusing one member of a thousand man unit of a crime?

All it would take is one young eager troop (on ether side) to turn this current blockade into a huge mess. 
We have members of an ethnic group fighting with the police, costing law abiding citizens their homes and legitimate, publicly owned corporations millions of dollars.

THIS IS ALREADY A HUGE MESS

I am glad troops like you have officers and discipline.   Without it where would we be?  My guess is the Canadian public would disband the whole cF.
Last time I checked, NCOs enforce discipline, Officers lead/manage. I guess things could have changed since friday though.

I think the Canadian public wants to know that an ethnic minority group is not free to attack law enforcement and steal property without consequence - and that they would support the use of force to prevent it.

This is not an issue of "rights", it is an issue of one group of people using force to get their way, and it should be stopped. Undoubtedly, agitators from other reserves and countries are already en route. If this had been stopped, the natives had been arrested and jailed as soon as the first fire was lit, this could have been resolved a long time ago.

I predict that we will start seeing more camoflage, guns, flags and bravado in the coming days, as groups like the Warrior society flow in. The danger of 30% unemployment I suppose...
 
I would like to hear opinions of those of Native descent on this forum. Do you agree that those at this "protest" took the right course, do you disagree but wouldn't tell the "protestors" because you are native as well? Any ideas on how these "land claim" problems can be avoided in the future because it seems to me that if the government allows lawless activity to happen in this case, whats to stop another band from acting outside Canadian law down the road?
 
You guy attack me from 8 sides and why I try to respond to every single argument, you say I make no sense.  Well, that hurts.  In any case, what really hurts is that the consensus seems to be that I lost the argument to the "let's move in with extreme prejudice and crack some native skulls" crowd. 

I have to say though, I can imagine you guys would be able to throw a really fine protest if you ever had to, what with all your city planning approval licences and making sure that nobody is inconvenienced. Boring! Anybody here heard of rock'n roll?  Anybody here like to go out for night of drinking and throw around the dukes once in a while?  Does nobody recognize that protesting is about breaking the law and causing an inconvenience?!?!??!  Where's the spirit?  You sound like a bunch of schoolmarms with your law and order talk.





 
Guess said:
You guy attack me from 8 sides and why I try to respond to every single argument, you say I make no sense.  Well, that hurts.  In any case, what really hurts is that the consensus seems to be that I lost the argument to the "let's move in with extreme prejudice and crack some native skulls" crowd. 

I have to say though, I can imagine you guys would be able to throw a really fine protest if you ever had to, what with all your city planning approval licences and making sure that nobody is inconvenienced. Boring! Anybody here heard of rock'n roll?  Anybody here like to go out for night of drinking and throw around the dukes once in a while?  Does nobody recognize that protesting is about breaking the law and causing an inconvenience?!?!??!  Where's the spirit?  You sound like a bunch of schoolmarms with your law and order talk.

thats a real intelligent way to make you point  ::)

Back away from  the keyboard  and get a colouring book and a box of crayons.
 
I am of Metis status, which really isn't much for Native status. However, I am able to receive a few benefits according to my family. This is not something I have ever even looked into though.

My Mom is a proud Metis woman who has spent a lot of time trying to learn our heritage and trying to help out with programs aimed at the Metis/Native community. Growing up in Northern Alberta where we are surrounded by many Native reserves I have seen a lot. There is a huge problem with alcoholism amongst the native people in my home town area. Sadly, the native people are known for this and welfare up there. I know it isn't Native's a whole who are like this but because of the small area and population of Native people up there it does give off this image.

I won't sit here and say I know much about Native culture or about how the land laws and such work though. My Mom grew up on a Metis settlement in Northern Alberta, which is a very calm place and basically just a bunch of acerages. However, I have been to a Native reserve near my hometown where if you are not a "full blood native" you need to watch yourself. I honestly did not feel safe when I was there at all. I got the stare down a lot and was even threatened just for being there. I am not saying all reserves are like this, but this one sure was.

This mindset of how native people are constantly being wronged really bothers me. I have some knowledge of the past and what occured way back when, so I understand a bit of where it all started, but I think the current battles are quite silly. I was watching the news yesterday and they were showing footage of a protest being held by some Native people, and frankly it made me feel embarrassed to be of Metis status. I do not understand the need for the violence and protests. Why can't we settle these disputes in a civilized nature? I won't pretend to know how to solve these disputes and I am just as lost as others. What I will say though is standing there with rocks in socks, and nails in boards waiting for someone to try and stop them is not the way. I really wish I could offer some input as to how I think this can all be resolved, but I am still trying to figure that out myself.

Not sure if this post will be of any use to anyone, but I thought I'd throw it in anyway.
 
Guess said:
You guy attack me from 8 sides and why I try to respond to every single argument, you say I make no sense.  Well, that hurts. 
What does - making no sense?

In any case, what really hurts is that the consensus seems to be that I lost the argument to the "let's move in with extreme prejudice and crack some native skulls" crowd. 
You lost the argument because you are;

1) Wrong

2) Unable to articulate your position

3) Arguing against law and order on a forum dominated by soldiers, police and retired soldiers and police.

I have to say though, I can imagine you guys would be able to throw a really fine protest if you ever had to, what with all your city planning approval licences and making sure that nobody is inconvenienced.
Our employment as members of the CF forbids us the privelige of protesting government policies, and our respect for the laws of Canada means that even if we had it, we would not attack police officers as a method of trying to force the federal government to give us our way.

Boring! Anybody here heard of rock'n roll?  Anybody here like to go out for night of drinking and throw around the dukes once in a while? 
Of course not. Infanteers are known for their love of horticulture and reading Nietzsche over a snifter of brandy.  ::)

Does nobody recognize that protesting is about breaking the law and causing an inconvenience?!?!??!  Where's the spirit?  You sound like a bunch of schoolmarms with your law and order talk.
Once again - you are posting on army.ca.

For me, a "good" protest would involve a six foot shield, a gas mask and baton, and long haired hippies falling out of their birkenstocks running away from the CS. So I guess it would be inconvenient...for them  >:D.
 
QV said:
Saw on the news earlier that 15 of the 16 people arrested were released with conditions (one condition being to stay away from the protest).  The lawyer for them said on the news that his clients don't recognize the court's jurisdiction.   
Then when they decide to go to a hospital they should be refused on the grounds of governmen not recognizing their claim to public health care. Same goes for everything else.
 
Guess said:
Well then, you should go protest the decision.  Go start a chain email and see how far you get.  In any case, you disagree with the law, so are you going to support it in any case.  Or are you going to disregard it because you are part of a majority? Not the world I want to live in.
It is called... what's the word again... DEMOCRACY!
 
Guess said:
You guy attack me from 8 sides and why I try to respond to every single argument, you say I make no sense.  Well, that hurts.  In any case, what really hurts is that the consensus seems to be that I lost the argument to the "let's move in with extreme prejudice and crack some native skulls" crowd. 

I have to say though, I can imagine you guys would be able to throw a really fine protest if you ever had to, what with all your city planning approval licences and making sure that nobody is inconvenienced. Boring! Anybody here heard of rock'n roll?  Anybody here like to go out for night of drinking and throw around the dukes once in a while?  Does nobody recognize that protesting is about breaking the law and causing an inconvenience?!?!??!  Where's the spirit?  You sound like a bunch of schoolmarms with your law and order talk.
      Buddy, you absolutely do not want to party with us.  That law and order respect that you think is such weakness is what keeps those of us with the skills and training to rock and roll for real from turning your fancy "warrior society" blockades into thirty seconds of rangex.  Hug that press corps tightly, and smile at the nice police officers, because you absolutely do not want to pass beyond their purview, and into ours.
 
We're done here.  If you have something to add that isn't a personal attack, then contact a Mod.  It may be opened.

 
http://sympaticomsn.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060522/blockade_dispute_060522

Power transformer near blockade was vandalized

CTV.ca News Staff

Vandalism and fire at a transformer station caused a blackout in Caledonia and Norfolk as aboriginal and non-native protesters clashed on the front lines of a month-long blockade.

Hydro One spokesperson Laura Cooke told CTV News that crews found significant damage to the transformer station and determined that it was caused by vandalism and fire.

Power is slowly being restored in pockets of Norfolk, but due to the extent of the damage in Caledonia, restoration is not expected for about three days.

On Monday morning, aboriginal protesters dismantled a blockade along Caledonia's main road then put it back up again after a confrontation with local non-natives.

The native protesters had removed the blockade on Argyle Street as a Victoria Day gesture of goodwill to help with talks to end the dispute.

But, non-natives then blocked the road themselves, arguing that the natives' gesture was not genuine.

CTV's Scott Laurie, reporting from the scene, said that as tensions rose, there was pushing and shoving. Rocks were thrown. Laurie said it appeared that the native protesters were using parts of a hydro tower in their new barricade.

However, Cooke said that tower wasn't related to the power outages.

Ontario Provincial Police officers had trouble keeping the two sides apart.

While police were on the road between the two blockades, members of the opposing groups ventured off into a nearby field where violence broke out.

"Two melees which involved people coming to blows, fights, pepper spray. Police had to get involved to intervene and separate both sides," Laurie said.

"Some people were bloodied; ambulances showed up to take a couple of people away, some officers were hurt as well."

Police eventually cut off both sides from access to the field.

Due to the situation, Hydro One was initially unable to access the station because of the blockade. In total, 1,500 Caledonia customers have been affected by the outage and another 6,300 in Norfolk are without electricity.

Police officers eventually escorted the crews through blockades so they could restore power.

A state of emergency and a possible curfew are being considered, Tom Patterson, deputy mayor of Haldimand County, told CTV Newsnet on Monday.

"That's possible," Patterson said. "We have an emergency plan in place for things like this so we're going to be looking at that."

Non-native locals are upset because they believe that the natives are dictating how the dispute will be resolved, Laurie reported.

The natives are angry over the development of land they claim was taken from them around the 1840s. The group has occupied the construction site since Feb. 28. The blockade went up on Apr.20.

Ontario Aboriginal Affairs Minister David Ramsay said Friday that construction on the disputed 40-hectare plot would remain on hold.

Caledonia is about 14 kilometres southwest of Hamilton and is very close to the Six Nations reserve.

Former Ontario premier David Peterson, who is involved in negotiating an end to the dispute, said he hoped the situation could be resolved peacefully.

"I think we have to appeal to the calmer heads to try to think carefully about the consequences of their actions," Peterson said.

"It's the future of the community and the reputation of the community that's at stake here."

Despite the fighting, Peterson said officials were still trying to prevent it from escalating further.

"All of us were praying and working hard to try to make sure something ugly didn't develop out of this, like an Oka or a Wounded Knee," Peterson said, referencing previous aboriginal standoffs that ended in violence.

"Hopefully we can get through this in a peaceful way and start a peaceful, meaningful engagement in some of these issues. That is the only solution to this problem."

With reports from CTV's Scott Laurie and Lia Rosekat
 
hi, i was wondering how everyone feels about the situation going on in Caledonia and what the outcome might or will be.
 
Sorry to burst your bubble but there is already a thread on here about this... A big one... Where you can very easily see everyone's feelings on the issue! Somewhere... Current affairs I think it's under?!?!
 
Article link

A Caledonia couple is launching a $10-million lawsuit against the Ontario Provincial Police and the Ontario government.

Dana Chatwell and David Brown held a news conference in Hamilton on Friday morning. The couple alleges the province is responsible for the disturbances that have been created at the Douglas Creek Estates site, which it purchased, and that the province interfered with the OPP carrying out its duties to enforce the law. The couple also alleges the OPP is guilty of breach of duty for making a policy decision not to enforce the laws of Canada, Ontario and Haldimand County.

During a news conference held by the plaintiffs on Friday, two surveillance videos were shown to the media, allegedly filmed on the couple's property. One, filmed from the couple's deck, purportedly showed native protesters near the property, and the other was allegedly filmed inside their kitchen.

While the family agreed to have a video surveillance system installed outside the house, there are allegations that the OPP placed cameras inside the home without the family's knowledge. None of the allegations have been proven in court. The suit also names OPP Commissioner Julian Fantino, former OPP commissioner Gwen Boniface and OPP Inpector Brian Haggith.

The simmering Caledonia dispute centres around a housing development that protesters claim is on native land. The dispute first flared up in February 2006.

In recent developments, the Ontario government temporarily suspended negotiations with Six Nations representatives after a homebuilder was found unconscious and badly beaten on Sept. 13. Ontario's Ministry for Aboriginal Affairs said the violence was unacceptable and pulled out of ongoing talks, though they have now resumed.

Representatives of the native community publicly apologized for the attack. It was believed to have been carried out by a group of young aboriginal protesters.

With files from CTV Southwestern Ontario's Michael Melling
 
It's gotta be discouraging for the police officers who still have to be at this site. I wonder how long this is going to be allowed to drag on?
Shared with usual disclaimers.

Ottawa must chip in for Caledonia: McGuinty
Cost of native occupation to Ontario taxpayers is $50 million — and rising

Mar 18, 2008 01:55 PM
Chinta Puxley
THE CANADIAN PRESS

It's time Ottawa chipped in more cash to cover the expense of a southern Ontario aboriginal occupation that's cost provincial taxpayers $50 million and counting, Premier Dalton McGuinty said today.

Although the federal government gave Ontario $26 million a year ago to help pay for the Caledonia occupation, the province has since paid out $50 million – the bulk of it for round-the-clock policing.

As costs continue to rise with no resolution to the two-year occupation in sight, McGuinty said it's time for another cheque.

"We will be there for as long as we have to in order to ensure that we keep both sides at the table and that they resolve their outstanding differences," McGuinty said.

"Obviously we will continue to incur costs. Ontario taxpayers continue to incur costs as a result of a difference between a First Nations community and the federal government."

"We think it's only fair that the federal government contribute."

The province's policing costs are now pegged at $35 million and rising, while taxpayers have also spent almost $500,000 for the Six Nations negotiating team that has been meeting for two years to resolve the dispute.

The province has spent a further $3.5 million on help for businesses and residents in Haldimand County and another $3.3 million on its own negotiation costs and expenses. Another $6.9-million cheque was sent to the former owners of the disputed land, Henco, and other builders.

McGuinty wouldn't say how much he wants the federal government to chip in, but said the province is in this for the long haul and Ontario taxpayers shouldn't bear the cost of that patience alone.

"It's unfortunate that it's gone on for this length of time," McGuinty said of the occupation. "We'll do everything that we can to find ways to accelerate the process."

Finance Minister Dwight Duncan said the province will continue to live up to its responsibility to pay for policing. But he said the Caledonia dispute shows the federal government should take a more ``meaningful approach" to land claim negotiations.

"It's unfortunate that the feds haven't taken negotiations seriously," Duncan said. "The larger agenda here is a meaningful approach to negotiation on land disputes, not just here but across the country. They need to take a different approach."

But provincial Tories say it's the governing Liberals who need to change tack before they go to Ottawa for more money. Conservative Lisa MacLeod said it's time for the Liberals to refuse to negotiate until the occupation has ended.

"They are not upholding the rule of law and that is costing Ontario enormous amounts of money," she said. "They have to start looking within before they start blaming the federal government."

New Democrat Gilles Bisson said the federal government does have a responsibility to help resolve the dispute and pay for it. But he said the provincial Liberals bear some blame for allowing the land claim to boil over into an occupation in the first place.

"It's been allowed to fester for so long," he said. "The government didn't do what it had to do in the beginning. This unfortunately is the cost of resolving it. We need to find a peaceful resolution to this."

Six Nations protesters have occupied a former housing development site in the southwestern town for over two years, contending the land was stolen from them by the Crown.


 
So we have to pay for McGuinty's mismanagement?  When does he NOT have his hand out?
 
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