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The 2008 Canadian Election- Merged Thread

Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act is the Red Star Toronto Star’s Jim Travers’ take on the politics:

http://www.thestar.com/columnists/article/301338
Afghanistan leaves Dion cornered

Feb 07, 2008 04:30 AM

JAMES TRAVERS

OTTAWA- Stéphane Dion is adding another D to Afghanistan's 3Ds of defence, diplomacy and development: Dither.

By failing to settle early and firmly on a sound, coherent, politically saleable position, the Liberal leader delivered to the Prime Minister a win-win proposition. Needlessly backed into a corner, Dion must now either fight an election before Liberals are ready, and on Conservative terms – terms that beyond Afghanistan include crime and, crucially, the coming budget – or bow to extending the mission.

A cynical observer – or crowing Conservative – might conclude there are now two new Dion Ds, dumb being the second and most damaging. A leader still struggling to understand Afghanistan failed to grasp the lifeline tossed to the party by another Liberal.

John Manley's report and qualified recommendation to stay the course beyond next February offered two shining opportunities. One was to modify the party's naïve proposal to end the combat mission while somehow continuing to rebuild a badly failing state. The other was to pressure Harper to meet Manley's caveats of more NATO troops and helicopters while attaching Liberal conditions to set an exit deadline and improve military, corruption and opium strategies that aren't working.

Instead of seizing the initiative and demonstrating capacity for creative policy, Dion left the political vacuum Harper is now filling with an Afghanistan vote that could kill this Parliament if it doesn't die first on the budget.

Of course all elections come with risks and one turning on Afghanistan has ample for the ruling party. Even a single bad day in Kandahar could throw the Conservative campaign off course. No prime minister wants to tour the country deflecting questions about casualties.

But consider this: Harper is keen to fight the election on leadership and will frame Afghanistan as the kind of tough decision strong prime ministers make. More intriguing, many Liberals worry they chose a weak one in Dion and have mixed feelings about an election likely to return another minority and perhaps formally restart the leadership contest that never stopped.

Given Conservatives are rolling in dollars and Liberals are not, the rationale is more persuasive for pulling the plug on a Parliament that may not live much longer anyway. But mostly missing from that dynamic is the national interest.

Apart from providing a catalyst for Liberals to unite around one of the issues that divides them, Manley's greatest contribution was to provide the Afghanistan analysis needed for the first thoughtful debate on Canada's future role. That could still unfold in Parliament or, despite Kim Campbell's infamous warning about mixing head-hurting policy with political campaigns, in an election. But it's far more likely the three national parties, like voters, will polarize around sadly wanting positions.

The Conservative open-ended commitment essentially focuses foreign policy on a single country that won't be saved soon or without high cost. Liberal reconstruction rhetoric is empty without the security only Canada is now willing to provide in southern Afghanistan. And the unilateral withdrawal the NDP wants would blow a hole in the multilateral protection Canada gets from the United Nations and NATO.

This brinksmanship is just hours old with plenty of time and space still for manoeuvre. But Dion's moves must now be deft if he's to avoid adding yet another D: Defeat.

James Travers' national affairs column appears Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday.

I pretty much agree with Travers:

• Dion is, indeed, dumb as a bag of hammers;

• If Harper gets to fight an early 2008 election he can/will do so on leadership in tough and dangerous times and Dion will lose, badly; and

• Harper might, indeed, end up hooking our foreign policy wagon to one, tired, old horse: Afghanistan – that would be a mistake but it may be hard to avoid.

 
And that from the Star!  I agree completely,  this guy is the best thing to happen to theTories in decades. 
 
If it wasn't so close to a new federal election I could only pray that lightning would strike Mr Dion down & open the floor for a new Liberal leader.... anyone....please!
 
sgf said:
how does this come down to the liberals, its not the liberals who said the matter of afghanistan will be a confidence vote.. ? again.. all parties are playing politics here, and all are using this for their own gain. maybe if all party leaders should  allow a free vote, without consequence but we all know what happened to bill casey

because we know which way the bloc, NDP, and conservatives will vote... it only depends on what the liberals decide right now, its all in their hands.

hopefully the budget fails and an election will get the conservatives a majority gov't..... wishful thinking?
 
sgf said:
and it was different when the liberal were in power.. hardly..

the house of commons is not the most civil place, and frankly it is the job of the opposition to oppose the government.. if the libs form the next govt, and it is a minority i cant see the tories behaving any differently than the liberals are now
It was absolutely different when the Liberals were in power. They were a majority and didn't need the acquiescence of the opposition to pass legislation.
 
ModlrMike said:
It was absolutely different when the Liberals were in power. They were a majority and didn't need the acquiescence of the opposition to pass legislation.

again you are right, however that had no bearing on the tory behaviour when they were sitting as opposition.. it was hardly civil then either
 
Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today's Globe and Mail is Jeffrey Simpson's take on the matter:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080208.cosimp09/BNStory/Front

Oh, what a tizzy it is in our little capital of Fantasyland

JEFFREY SIMPSON

From Saturday's Globe and Mail
February 8, 2008 at 7:02 PM EST

A reasonable, sensible compromise can be found on extending the Canadian mission in Afghanistan if the Liberal Party wants one.

It is hard to fathom, of course, what the Liberal Party wants on Afghanistan, or on many other issues. It is even harder to fathom why Liberal Leader Stéphane Dion and some of his more boisterous MPs are pawing the ground for an election they are most likely to lose.

Ottawa, the country's little capital, is convulsed these days with election speculation, tactics, rumours and all the other irrelevancies of the media/political world that divorce it from the rest of the country.

Some of this speculation swirls around the Afghan mission. The Harper government laid down a motion yesterday to extend that mission's life to the “end of 2011,” with more targeted aid, but assuming 1,000 or so troops from another country and better equipment – essentially the position recommended by the five-person panel led by former Liberal deputy prime minister John Manley.

This is a position many Liberals could accept, with some tweaking such as the mission's end date being advanced to early 2011. But Mr. Dion continues to draw the proverbial line in the sand about no combat deployment after February of 2009. On this, or a Liberal vote against the budget, the Harper government could fall, which seems to be what the Harperites want, too.

The little capital, therefore, has once again become a kind of political Fantasyland. Both the Liberals and Conservatives are giving themselves less and less room to manoeuvre. Both parties are insisting the other is intransigent. Both are convinced they can win the election: the Liberals with a minority, the Conservatives with a majority. But both have no assurances they are right. And if they are wrong, as is quite likely, the consequences will be bad for both.

The Liberal positioning is mostly about the party's lack of coherence and, more important, total lack of confidence in its leader. Mr. Dion has almost no caucus support, and he must know it. His standing in public opinion polls is low, especially but not exclusively in Quebec. He is living on the Liberal brand name, not his own.

So, like leaders before him who felt themselves mocked by others, Mr. Dion tends to take fixed, non-negotiable positions to show everyone how strong he really is. But it is a phony, misguided strength that illustrates weakness. It is also part of his (and many other Liberals') fear of the NDP that causes the Liberals to forget time and again that elections are won and lost in the centre of the political spectrum, not on the extremes.

For those with better things to do than follow the minutiae of politics, it might seem incredible that this be so, but there are Liberals who fully expect to lose the election – indeed, want to lose the election, and as soon as possible – so they can then replace their leader as quickly as possible.

Therefore, and this is part of the little capital's Fantasyland, one element of the Official Opposition seeks an election it expects and wants to lose. Another element believes an early election is imperative because the leader, and thus the party, has talked itself into positions from which no retreat is possible without humiliation – which is what happens when so many lines in the sand are drawn. A few, and the hubristic leader is one, apparently believe the Liberals will win office.

The Harperites, with more money and confidence, will take an election if necessary but not necessarily an election. They are obviously better prepared and organized for one than the Liberals, but there is no guarantee they can secure their coveted majority.

They have controlled the agenda for two years, focused their message, bribed and wooed Quebec, stroked ethnic groups, fulfilled many of their campaign promises except those they broke, gagged and muffled their own troops, given away money such that the federal cupboard is almost bare, engaged in egregious public policies such as the GST tax cut to curry favour, yet been unable to move their numbers into majority government territory.

They are apparently convinced that a majority can be found in the “underlying factors”: their leader's greater campaigning experience, his higher popularity compared with that of Mr. Dion, the possibility of gains in rural and small-town Quebec that will then impress Ontario and the Maritimes, and a superior, cutting-edge political machine.

The Conservatives also have a more plausible position on Afghanistan than the Liberals. Moreover, if one party believes in extending the mission with certain drop-dead conditions, and three parties (Liberals, NDP and Bloc Québécois) do not, and if the electorate is more or less evenly divided, you want to be the only party that represents the view of half the electorate, and let the other three fight for the other half.

Anyway, such is the swirl in the little capital that an election few Canadians desire, and that neither large party can be sure will produce what it wants, has everyone in a tizzy from which, if cooler heads prevail, reality might still intervene.

His bit is, I think at the heart of the matter:

It is also part of his (and many other Liberals') fear of the NDP that causes the Liberals to forget time and again that elections are won and lost in the centre of the political spectrum, not on the extremes.

The real battle here is between the NDP and the Liberals. Both are feeling heat from the Greens. While the majority of Canadians are not Conservative that majority can only be sliced and diced so often before the Tories become the natural governing party. The Liberals have, for a half century, plus, seen the NDP as a safety valve for the left wing of the party. That was an acceptable position since, thanks to 1885 and all that, les rouges had an electoral stranglehold on Québec. Now it doesn't work. A Conservative government is a fairly natural outcome when the non-Conservative majority is divided three ways. If the Greens can eat into Liberal and NDP support and if the Conservatives can take bits from both the BQ and the Liberal right wing then Conservative majorities, back-to-back and beyond, are possible – not likely, just possible.

Simpson is right and waaaaay too many Conservative supporters are wrong: majority governments are won by in the political centre. Like it or not (and I know many, many Canadians don't) Ontario is absolutely, unalterably essential – just look at Jean Chrétien’s 1993, 1997 and 2000 general elections – he won majority after majority after majority, despite Reform/Alliance/Conservative strength in the West and BQ strength in Québec because he swept centrist Ontario. All policies and election platforms – including foreign affairs, defence and military issues must pander to Ontario. The Tories need to get 20+ ‘new’ seats in the next general election – almost all of them have to be found in Ontario and Québec, maybe even more that ‘all’ because they might lose a few seats in Atlantic Canada. Ontario = the national political centre and, therefore, the Conservatives must temper their policies and promises to suit Ontario; sorry about that Alberta.

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Mods:

I wonder is this thread and "Therefore ... we should stay~" (here in Military Current Affairs) should not be merged and then merged into Confidence Motion Coming~ (in Canadian Politics).




 
Now where did my Princess Patricia's Albertan Light infantry crest go... ;)
 
One can only hope that the Liberal party will see the light after they lose the next election, remove Dion and elect Ignatieff as leader.  Then Canada stands the chance of having an effective opposition party.

To be honest, I don't think most Canadians trust Harper sufficiently to give him a majority but no one has enough faith in Dion's abilities to give him power.  I suspect the next election will result in another minority Conservative government until the Liberals have a leader that can galvanize Canadians.  Right or wrong, the majority of Canadians just don't trust (or even like/respect) Harper.





 
scoutfinch said:
One can only hope that the Liberal party will see the light after they lose the next election, remove Dion and elect Ignatieff as leader.  Then Canada stands the chance of having an effective opposition party.

To be honest, I don't think most Canadians trust Harper sufficiently to give him a majority but no one has enough faith in Dion's abilities to give him power.  I suspect the next election will result in another minority Conservative government until the Liberals have a leader that can galvanize Canadians.  Right or wrong, the majority of Canadians just don't trust (or even like/respect) Harper.

I think you're nearly on target, scoutfinch, but I think Canadians:

1. Respect Harper, but

2. Mistrust him, and his party cohorts; and

3. Dislike him, probably quite intensely.

I think he can work around the dislike factor - Canadians disliked Mulroney and he won back-to-back majorities - but I think mistrust is his Achilles' heel.

The mistrust is:

1. Partially institutional and goes all the way back to R.B. Bennet;

2. Partially based on excellent propaganda by the Liberals and the anti-Conservative (not necessarily pro-Liberal) mainstream media; and

3. Partially a self-inflicted wound by Harper, himself, and his communications staff.
 
Mr. Campbell,

Mistrust, or hate......I will never....EVER trust another French speaking liberal to run the country.

Mulroney's kick-backs and lack of decision making on his part, pale in comparison to the millions flushed down the loo from sponsorship scandals, Jane Stewart's HRDC boondoggle and canceled helicopter penalties under the Liberal watch....or lack thereof.

Rant over.
 
mulroney taking over a million dollars from the taxpapers of this country, when he knew that he was not entitled to the money is sort of a deal breaker for me there the tories are concerned. politicans are politicans, but he was a Prime Minister, and I hold him to a higher standard.
 
Mr. Campbell:

Perhaps I am wrongly rendering respect and trust interchangeable to a certain extent; however, I think certain incidents of pettiness demonstrated by Harper over the past 2 years are going to come back to haunt him in regards to respect levels.  I think people respect his 'managerial' skills but I don't think people respect him as an inspiring leader.  But when the alternative is Dion....???

Moreover, I don't think Canadians have a palate for blatant partisanship or interference in rule of law/public administration.  (We managed to maintain a wilfull blindness under past governments  ;)).  I suspect that handling of the Chalk River incident (and other similar events where there politics have trumped proper process) -- while not a matter to defeat a government -- will leave Canadians with a sufficiently bad taste in their mouths that it will cause them to think twice before casting their vote.  Also, the electorate is getting tired of hearing 'it wasn't us, it was them'.  

Anecdotally, a great number of former Progressive Conservatives are having difficulty with what was described to be as 'the King and his new court'.  By many, Harper and his cohorts are seen as nothing more than Reformers that overthrew Manning and his cohort.





 
The knives will be out in the Conservative Party if Harper gets another minority-his personality would perhaps be more tolerated if he had a majority, but he does not, and in the process he has made a lot of enemies within his own party.  Harper is under more pressure than Dion.  Dion is expected to lose this election and will be allowed another chance to win.  Harper is supposed to win big.  If he does not do well this election, anything short of a majority, he will not get another chance.  Thus, I am already listing possible successors to Harper: John Baird, Maxime Bernier,  Peter Mackay and even Rona Ambrose.  Perhaps, Dion will outlast Harper-never underestimate the enemy. 
 
I like harper as a leader of our country if only for his policies on sovereignty and military mite. He may have the personality of a plastic doll, but he sure is putting sovereignty down as a priority. To me, it's too bad provinces hold regionalism above nationalism, as that seems to be the trend, and a growing one at that. I think it holds our country back leaps and bounds from where we should be.

 
Is Harper trying to force a spring election?
Updated Sat. Feb. 9 2008 8:23 PM ET
CTV.ca News Staff

Prime Minister Stephen Harper looked like he was stumping on the campaign trail Saturday.

He attended the Winter Carnival in Quebec City where he flipped burgers and mingled with the crowd.

The prime minister's public display isn't the only reason political pundits are predicting that an election call is not far away.

Ottawa is on high alert after several aggressive moves by the Conservatives last week that have destabilized the parliamentary balance. The Tories introduced two bills that are expected to lead to confidence votes in March: the omnibus crime bill and legislation on Canada's mission in Afghanistan.

A third confidence test will come after the federal budget is tabled later this month.

But if the conservatives want an election, they will have to goad opposition parties to take Canada to the polls. Under his own fixed-date election legislation, Harper is unable to dissolve parliament until October 2009.

Harper's personal popularity numbers are also dropping, according to recent polls, although they're still better than Stephane Dion's.

Harper's appearance at the carnival, though, may not have been enough to swing some voters to his side.

"No way," said one woman who saw the Prime Minister's performance.

"I didn't change my mind. He's a very nice man but I didn't change my mind. No. I'm Liberal, through and through."

Prepared with a report by CTV's David Akin
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080209/tories_preelxn_080209/20080209?hub=Canada
 
sgf said:
mulroney taking over a million dollars from the taxpapers of this country, when he knew that he was not entitled to the money is sort of a deal breaker for me there the tories are concerned. politicans are politicans, but he was a Prime Minister, and I hold him to a higher standard.
How is that any worse than "Shawinigate" and the golf course deal? By your logic, you shouldn't vote Liberal either.
 
Shawinigate (the golf course deal):  Chretien lobbied a federal government agency to fund a project in his riding. He happened to own property next to the project so which gave the appearance of a scandal.  He did not get any money directly from government funds-he may have benefited indirectly. 

Airbus: Mulroney sues the Federal government and the RCMP for 50 million dollars claiming they have defamed him.  Says he barely knows Schreiber.  Forgets to tell everyone that he has gotten 225,000 or 300,000 from Schreiber. Government settles suit for 2.1 million which goes to Mr. Mulroney.  This also gives the appearance of scandal.   

 
stegner said:
Shawinigate (the golf course deal):   Chretien lobbied a federal government agency to fund a project in his riding. He happened to own property next to the project so which gave the appearance of a scandal.  He did not get any money directly from government funds-he may have benefited indirectly.   

Airbus: Mulroney sues the Federal government and the RCMP for 50 million dollars claiming they have defamed him.  Says he barely knows Schreiber.  Forgets to tell everyone that he has gotten 225,000 or 300,000 from Schreiber. Government settles suit for 2.1 million which goes to Mr. Mulroney.  This also gives the appearance of scandal.   

You fail to mention that Mulroney donated the 2.1 million to charity. You also fail to mention that it was not taxpayers money that Mulroney got from Schreiber, it was a business deal, after Mulroney left politics. How about the 40 million the Liberals still owe the taxpayers for adscam, money they took from us, the taxpayer? The appearance of scandal is a witchhunt by the opposition, why did Pablo ask unrelated questions of a former PM, fed to him by a CBC reporter? Why did Szabo, the Liberal chair, allow the questions, actually cutting Mulroney off when he objected to the line of questioning? Why did Thibault and Szabo meet with Schreiber's lawyer? Why did Thibault visit Schreiber in jail way before this became news? Why was Thibault seen at a restaurant with Schreiber during Christmas break pouring over documents? This all gives the appearance of scandal as far as I'm concerned, but you don't hear about it in the media.
 
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