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Terrorism and the Legal System

Here is a detailed discussion of the USA Patriot Act. Our political system does not have the "checks and balances" that the US constitution provides, so if it is deemed necessary to provide these powers to the police and intelligence agencies under special circumstances, our act will have to be a bit different.

http://victorhanson.com/articles/thornton111104.html

Enjoy
 
So IMO, let me say, THE LEGAL SYSTEM IN CANADA IS A JOKE !!!

I wouldn't go that far...the Rule of Law is still almost univerally regarded as supreme.

As well, you don't have to pay a militia to drive to work everyday and your local neighbourhood isn't run by a criminal racket.

Don't be so quick to condemn a system that, like any others, has faults - we've got it alot better then so many others.
 
The Americans are taking the hardest line possible by keeping prisoners in Gitmo.  Although allowing the Red Cross to inspect, the US continues (correctly, IMHO) to insist that detainees are NOT protected by the Geneva conventions as they: 1. Have no insignia or visible rank structure and 2. have no identifiable government with authority over its military.  Gitmo is obviously not in the US so even though this week it was determined that (American) human rights laws have been broken, status is still indeterminate.  My bet is that they'll be guests of Gitmo for some time.
 
I am looking for a citation, but I understand that some people released from "Gitmo" have turned up dead in Afghanistan, usually at the wrong end of American Tac Air or SF operators. Given this propensity to "reoffend", they will, or should , stay in detention for the remainder of their natural lives.
 
"wouldn't go that far...the Rule of Law is still almost univerally regarded as supreme.

As well, you don't have to pay a militia to drive to work everyday and your local neighbourhood isn't run by a criminal racket.

Don't be so quick to condemn a system that, like any others, has faults - we've got it alot better then so many others."

I would go so far and I will not compare us to sh*thole third world country. Why not? We have had much better in the past, there is no excuse for the crap system we have now.
I stand by previous statement, our legal system is a joke..
Hang out and talk to some cops for awhile and hear first hand getting off easy stories..
 
2. have no identifiable government with authority over its military.

Does this cover contracters too?
 
ArmyRick said:
"wouldn't go that far...the Rule of Law is still almost univerally regarded as supreme.

As well, you don't have to pay a militia to drive to work everyday and your local neighbourhood isn't run by a criminal racket.

Don't be so quick to condemn a system that, like any others, has faults - we've got it alot better then so many others."

I would go so far and I will not compare us to sh*thole third world country. Why not? We have had much better in the past, there is no excuse for the crap system we have now.
I stand by previous statement, our legal system is a joke..
Hang out and talk to some cops for awhile and hear first hand getting off easy stories..


Those cops would not recommend any other system. They may have problems with what we've got but they know we have the best system in the world. Even for its foibles. Yes our legal system sucks- yes it could be better I agree. Infanteer is right the rule of law is not to be taken lightly- the alternative is that much worse.
 
Time to educate.. best system in the world? No that is more Canadian propaganda..
Do you know why sentences are so light in Canada ? I have reliable sources, so hear me..
(1) Our correction centers are over loaded, so reduced sentencing or alternative corrective measures are commonly used.
(2) 25 years (thats our defination of life in prison) as the maximum sentence was introduced quite some time ago because natural life in jail was considered too hard and inhumane a sentence unless some one is declared a dangerous offender (like Bernardo is) their out in 18-25 years.
(3) Canada, yes Canada, has a very light view on criminals and not enough on victims rights. We tend to view criminals as being unfortunate victims of a cruel society BS. Then we are shocked that a person who has been convicted 6-8 times for violent offences finally kills some one on the street.
(4) I won't even touch on our Young Offenders Act (I will say it has been slowly improving for the better since first intoduced in mid eighties)..
(5) Illegal aliens and international criminals hiding in Canada (oh yes, thats a reality folks and I know my sources are good because they process the bloody paper work on these people) is disgusting. An example is a thug who gets deported 5-6 times a year! Yes, it happens.
I have only touched on some of the issues on the surface. Their better legal systems in the world (UK, Australia, Sweden, etc). The biggest point is to put the welfare and safety of the SOCIETY and the VICTIM ahead of the "poor, misunderstood" criminal...

Before you reply to what I have said (i have seen weak replies). Talk to some cops, immigration,  corrections officers, crown lawyers and people in the business. Get some background info from the ground level so to speak..

Lets stop comparing our country to uncivilized third world hell holes (where we do operations) and lets start looking at our fellow developed and civilized countries (other NATO countries for example)
 
ArmyRick,

You've brought up valid points - of course there are problems (although some may be perceived dependent on people's outlooks on crime and punishment) - however, I don't think these problems add up to make our justice system "a joke".

I happen to agree with all 5 of your points.   But discrediting the entire system of justice we inherited on these is unfair.   It's the exact same line of thinking that says "The Canadian Forces is a joke, it couldn't fight it's way out of a paper bag, we're finished as a fighting force" due to problems with funding, manning, overstretch, acquisitions, etc, etc.

The problems you highlight are not faults of the common law legal system we inherited, but rather specific contentious policy issues within that framework.   Lack of execution on specific policy issues do not render the entire foundation irrelevant.   Considering the fact that:

1) I can not commit wanton acts of violence or coercion in the streets.
2) The recognition Rule of Law is strong enough that if I commit a crime, most citizens will regard it as illegal (This is important - there is concensus on the fact that the Rule of Law is just).
3) We have a professional police force that executes the law and a professional judiciary that applies the law - a high degree of professional intergrity is maintained and corruption is minimal.

Try and differentiate between fundamental issues and policy issues - when you attack the justice system as a joke, you seem to be implying that the Justice System of Canada is fundamentally flawed (which you contradict in your own post by stating that the UK and Australia - which possess nearly identical systems - are better).
 
ArmyRick said:
Time to educate.. best system in the world? No that is more Canadian propaganda..

Before you reply to what I have said (i have seen weak replies). Talk to some cops, immigration,   corrections officers, crown lawyers and people in the business. Get some background info from the ground level so to speak..

::) Im not even going to get involved in an argument with somebody who heard some "shop talk" and decided to run with it. We all feel things could be doing better- or may even be moving in the wrong direction- but put up some facts. I wont even get started on you regarding the "young offenders act"- since its called the "Youth Criminal Justice Act" now. SInce you cant even keep your limited facts straight. I wont even bother.
 
The leagal system can only be an element in the overall plan. Today in WW IV, we are facing a group who's ideology simply does not recognize our legal system or social concepts:

First, Islam philosophically divides the world into two camps â “ this is Islam's definitions, not mine --  Dar al-Islam and Dar al-Harb. Dar al-Islam is the House of Submission. Dar Al-Harb is not the House of Infidels. It is the House of War. Since we are in "Dar Al-Harb", and the Jihadis seem to feel that any atrocity is justified so long as the "end" is to bring us into the "Dar Al-Islam", then questions like how to treat the Jihadis are mostly of academic interest

Worn Out Grunt said:
The Americans are taking the hardest line possible by keeping prisoners in Gitmo. Although allowing the Red Cross to inspect, the US continues (correctly, IMHO) to insist that detainees are NOT protected by the Geneva conventions as they: 1. Have no insignia or visible rank structure and 2. have no identifiable government with authority over its military. Gitmo is obviously not in the US so even though this week it was determined that (American) human rights laws have been broken, status is still indeterminate. My bet is that they'll be guests of Gitmo for some time.

Obviously, there are some serious issues to address, especially concerning people who live in Canada and insist they are entitled to all the privileges we take for granted while working against our society and civilization. Our friends the Khadars come to mind. While it might be satisfying to descend on their houses one night and place them in administrative detention, or better yet, make them dissapear, the unleashing of arbitrary and unrestrained power would rebound on all of us.

Since we are the military, we can use our skills to identify these actors, and here at home, work at isolating them from the community through propaganda, HUMINT, CIMIC and similar skill sets. We can share our information with the law enforcement community when it becomes clear the actors are breaking Canadian laws if we had some legal mechanism to do so. UltiUltimately can kill them on a foreign battlefield, since the dead have limited operational effectiveness.
 
A Majoor,

I'm wondering if your familiar with the idea of "Fourth Generation Warfare", a theory that seems to be close to your notion of terrorism (as an act of war as opposed to a criminal act), that comes from the works of Col. John Boyd?

http://army.ca/forums/threads/19350.0.html
 
Good call, Infanteer. I have read Van Crevald and Douglas Waller (The Commandos, where I first encountered the idea). Canada is in a unique situation, since we allow large groups of immigrants to enter the country but do not insist on assimilation. A look at the news over the past two decades demonstrates the dangers of this policy; these groups bring their conflicts with them, and Canada can serve as both a battlefield and a launch pad for intervening in foreign conflicts. Sometimes the two are indistinguishable.

A brief review: In the 1980s, the "Armenian Secret Army" conducted a campaign of assassinations against Turkish diplomats. Sikh factions fought each other(and are still fighting) in Canada, and also against India (air India bombing). The LTTE (Tamil Tigers) established a presence in Canada in the 1990s, running extortion rackets to fund the war in Siri Lanka, and using Canada as a safe haven for high level members and front groups. Native "activism" is partly fueled by cross border contacts with criminal gangs and the American Indian Movement (AIM). Various terrorist groups like Hamas maintain a presence in Canada today, and many people from former Yugoslavia supported factions in their formar country with money, suplies or even their persons. The Khadars are the most visible example of the Jihadi's establishment in Canada, and there is little doubt that there are some Al Qadea sleeper cells in country.

The 4GW idea is very disturbing, since it cuts across the neat divisions that have been erected since the 1640s to separate internal and external conflicts, and the mechanisms that we have evolved to deal with these issues. The USA Patriot act is an attempt to get to grips with this threat, and some of my other ideas, like standing up an "Inter Agency Group" for specific threats try to deal with the conflict between providing security and maintaining freedoms.

Perhaps the administrator can past the 4GW thread onto this one.
 
Since merging the two posts would do no good, as the 4GW items would end up at the beginning of the thread due to the date they were posted, I'll just attach my thoughts here to re-establish the 4GW trend.

---

Lately, I've been going through a series of articles that come from a certain school of thought which, as opposed to technical-based RMA's, sees paradigmatic shifts in the way we fight as based on ideas.   It is a way of thinking that has deeply interested me in the last few months and challenged preconceptions I have held on many different aspects of our Army.   These thinkers see the current war on extremist terrorism as representative of a "Fourth Generation" (4GW) of warfighting paradigms.   Here are some of the articles I've went through that I'd recommend you take a look at; what is significant is that many are from the Marine Corps Gazette, indicating a vibrant culture of looking and thinking forward exists within the Corps:

The first article is significant in the fact that many of the events we see now were understood by those who viewed the "Fourth generation" of warfare to leave both the bounds of the state as target and the military as the main actor.   The authors, William S. Lind, Colonel Keith Nightengale (USA), Captain John F. Schmitt (USMC), Colonel Joseph W. Sutton (USA), and Lieutenant Colonel Gary I. Wilson (USMCR), put forth the notion that "4GW" signalled a reversion to the fighting prevalent before the state monopolized it in the 18th century, namely factionalized conflict between competing groups of sub-state actors.

http://d-n-i.net/fcs/4th_gen_war_gazette.htm

The second article, by Marine Col Thomas Hammes, answered the question posed by the previous article in that "4GW" has already been defined throughout the insurgency conflicts during the Cold War.   He believes that "4GW" forces, such as religious terrorists or ideological fundamentalists, seek victory over state actors through asymmetrical attacks on the culture and society of their opponents.   For these forces, the center of gravity has shifted from purely military objectives.

http://d-n-i.net/fcs/hammes.htm

A third article which is a little more current to today's events, looks at the fighting in Afghanistan from a "4GW" perspective.   The fighting of irregular, "Fourth Generation" Al Qaeda forces with conventional military troops offers us a real case study on the methods required and potential pitfalls of approaching this conflict in the manner we are.   I know some of you have been actively involved in operations in Afghanistan (including Anaconda), so your input would be interesting.

http://d-n-i.net/fcs/wilson_wilcox_military_responses.htm

These are but three of a fascinating series of articles on this subject that have been collected here:

http://d-n-i.net/second_level/fourth_generation_warfare.htm
http://d-n-i.net/second_level/4gw_continued.htm

This is a site set up by followers of the late Col. John Boyd, USAF, who's ideas on how human interaction is involved with how we fight are still affecting thinking and doctrine of military forces to this day.

Anyways, one question to launch this thread that came to my mind as I was going through these articles was that if terrorism is a form of ""4GW", meaning that it is a form of armed conflict between societies, then perhaps the conventional idea of looking at terrorist acts in a legal framework as criminal acts is innappropriate for approaching our execution of the war.

If one is to apply a "4GW" framework to the war, then Osama bin Ladin is an enemy General, our economic and social infrastructure is a legitimate "4GW" target as it is our social center of gravity (hence 9/11), and hijackings and suicide bombings and media are new assymetrical weapons for attacking our society from inside.   Although this may not make sense in a traditional military pattern of thought, human conflict does not fit nicely into structured and distinct forms (much to the chagrin of the Geneva conventions).

Viewing this conflict as a new paradigm in warfighting demands we alter our military structures in order to meet the demands placed on us by the operations of the enemy (as my sig line says).   Perhaps certain areas of our forces need to be moved into a direction of "4GW-fighters", utilizing vastly different methods of fighting due to the fact that the new enemy does not possess a center-of-gravity that fits traditional military definitions.   The formation of a new "4GW" force would most likely involve the intergration of other aspects of our society in order to attack the support of terrorist forces which may lie out of the conventional spectrum of armed conflict (ie: news media, religious propaganda, citizens within our own country).

As well, Col John Boyd asserted that war was fought in three fields; tactical (winning battles), operational (winning campaigns), and strategic (winning wars).   As well, these three areas of conflict were fought on three levels; the physical level, the mental level, and the moral level.   The goal is to ensure unity of effort so that your forces fight the enemy on the requisite level.

1)   Failure to do so can result in a strategic defeat.   One of the articles brings up the Tet Offensive as a brilliant example.   Although the Vietnamese did even worse then they thought they would on the tactical level (only Hue held out for any significant amount of time) and on the operational level (The Vietcong was destroyed as a fighting force and the NVA units involved were shattered) they one a clear victory on the strategic level in that support for the war plummeted and Walter Cronkite said that the war was unwinnable.

How did they do this?   The North Vietnamese were very astute in the levels of war.   They clearly saw that the US strategy was to win the war on the physical level, using masses of technologically superior forces to fight an attrition battle with the Vietnamese Communists.   Ho Chi Minh used this to his advantage by using the Tet Offensive to attack on the moral level; the used the Western media against the US.   Images of an enemy that American Generals claimed to have on the verge of defeat launching vigorous counteroffensives throughout South Vietnam only fuelled the anti-war effort and led to Johnson withdrawing from the Presidential race and Nixon getting elected on the platform of "peace with honour".

Clearly then, military thinkers must begin to contemplate the levels of war when planning operations.   Military planners should, as my sigline states, follow Scharnhorst's dictum and "endeavor to regulate one's dispositions according to the enemy's methods."

Point in case with the recent US action in Najaf against Muqtada al-Sadr.   The Americans could easily have stormed the Imam Ali Mosque and cordoned off and "purged" much of Najaf, destroying al-Sadr's army and possibly killing Moqtada himself, but would this have been a unified victory?   Sure, they would have experienced tactical victory (eliminating resistance in Najaf) and operational success (eliminating the threat al-Sadr posed to the US-backed government in Iraq) but I believe (and obviously, so did US planners to some level) that this would have resulted in strategic setback in that it would give the forces opposed to the US a unifying cause and further increased resistance against the US.   A physical level victory in Najaf would have clearly become a moral failure for the Americans.

This leads to the next logical question, do any of you see the possibility for an counter-attack on the moral level against the Americans in Iraq, something akin to Tet which manages to throw American support at home so behind the antiwar effort (and perhaps leading to the failure of Bush to get reelected?!?) and leads to withdrawl?   I think that the chances of this happening are more remote as Iraq is not a unified effort as was Vietnam, but the potential for a contingency such as this is there.

2) Obviously, pulling out of Najaf also led to strategic setbacks as anti-American support was bolstered when Goliath backed down.   This sheds light on the fact that a military response on the physical level is completely inappropriate in some instances of 4GW.   In many cases, the open presence of armed military forces acts against the efforts of a state on the moral level.

This leads to the discussion of 4GW Forces and changes we must make to them to give them the ability to fight on the moral level.   In areas where the open presence of a military force is detrimental to the moral level of conflict, we must deploy a 4GW force, which is based off of our current SOC units (the US Special Forces fit the bill) that will leave a small footprint for opponents to exploit through non traditional means such as global media, anti-war efforts, etc, etc.   Since these forces will be fighting on the moral level, they will require members not only to be proficient in tactics to win military battles, but other areas such as civil development, cultural development, and outright political maneuvering in order to collapse support for 4GW forces in the area.  

Once again, the US SF seems to be a step towards this direction but obviously, further evolution to force structure and doctrine such that areas outside of the traditional military realm are required in order to attack opponents on a level outside of the purely military spectrum of objectives.

Any thoughts?

Infanteer


---

Maybe there will be some new interest in the idea and its relation to this thread.
 
Just moving back to the Patriot act for a moment, imagine how a government that is not constrained by checks and balances would impliment such a law:

Civil Liberties and the [French] War on Terror:
According to today's New York Times,

      People . . . can be imprisoned [merely] for association with terrorists; a woman has been in jail for nearly a year awaiting trial on charges of knowing of a plot by her son, who is still under investigation.

  Haven't heard about this case? Thinking of calling your Congressman? Not so fast â ” turns out that this is happening over in France. And as the Washington Post reported earlier this month, such tactics aren't even controversial among the French citizenry:

      Armed with some of the strictest anti-terrorism laws and policies in Europe, the French government has aggressively targeted Islamic radicals and other people deemed a potential terrorist threat. While other Western countries debate the proper balance between security and individual rights, France has experienced scant public dissent over [its] tactics. . . .
      . . .
      France has embraced a law enforcement strategy that relies heavily on preemptive arrests, ethnic profiling and an efficient domestic intelligence-gathering network. French anti-terrorism prosecutors and investigators are among the most powerful in Europe, backed by laws that allow them to interrogate suspects for days without interference from defense attorneys.

  Public debates about the war on terrorism are filled with lots of delicious ironies. The fact that the French government has many powers that are orders of magnitude greater than anything in the Patriot Act surely ranks up as one of the better ones.

  Also ironic is the fact that the French government has had these powers since long before 9/11. Although the French government took advantage of the 9/11 attacks to expand the government's powers in a law passed within a week of the Patriot Act, my understanding is that most of its powers date back to a law passed in 1986.

  It's also worth noting that in the French system, judges don't serve as a check that can monitor potential abuses of the executive branch. Rather, French judges work closely with investigators and themselves are in charge of gathering the evidence:

      Over the past decade, [a single anti-terrorism judge in France] has ordered the arrests of more than 500 people on suspicion of "conspiracy in relation to terrorism," a broad charge that gives him leeway to lock up suspects while he carries out investigations.
      "There is no equivalent anywhere else in Europe. This provision is very, very efficient for judicial rule in tackling terrorist support networks," [the judge] said in an interview. "Fighting terrorism is like the weather. You have high pressure zones and low pressure zones. Countries that have low pressure zones" attract terrorism.
 
France also has a wide variety of homegrown and regional terrorist groups that operate now, or did until recently:  Basque, Catalonian, Communist,  right wing/neo-nazi, etc.
 
Oddly enough, there are lots of people here in Canada who share similar viewpoints; LTTE, Hamas, Hezbolah, the Armenian Secret Army, various Sikh separatist groups, various "Quebecois" separatist groups, Greens, Animal Rights activists, violent Anti-Abortionists...

The one aspect of the problem is what in our society allows these thought process to take root and flourish (a cultural problem, not easily delt with by the Military, although 4GW theorists might be inclined to think about it), and the other is once you have identified that there is a problem, how do you deal with it?
 
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