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supply system?

Two of these former Cbt Arms officers have served very well as DCO of Roto 0 and Roto 3 HSS Coy in the 'ghan.  The Roto 3 gent was DCO of 2 Fd Amb before tour and will inherit command of the Fd Hosp upon his return.

Unfortunately their excellent operational focus can be smothered by those higher without the same background.

Once we clean up our cbt arms dialogue/language, stop running the cellulite of the soldier's butts and learn to bite our tongue, lips and of course, breathe deeply to hold our chuckles, etc.  We provide instant credibility (in most cases) to the HSS units because we are recognized by our former peers still trudging in the mud to our front. 







 
Gunner98 said:
Two of these former Cbt Arms officers have served very well as DCO of Roto 0 and Roto 3 HSS Coy in the 'ghan.  The Roto 3 gent was DCO of 2 Fd Amb before tour and will inherit command of the Fd Hosp upon his return.

Unfortunately their excellent operational focus can be smothered by those higher without the same background.

Once we clean up our cbt arms dialogue/language, stop running the cellulite of the soldier's butts and learn to bite our tongue, lips and of course, breathe deeply to hold our chuckles, etc.  We provide instant credibility (in most cases) to the HSS units because we are recognized by our former peers still trudging in the mud to our front. 

"Unfortunately their excellent operational focus can be smothered by those higher without the same background."

I think you may have just proved my point. 

If "those higher" had the same background, they would be less likely to "smother" "excellent operational focus".  Perhaps a partial solution is to have ALL CSS officers be Cbt Arms for an amount of time prior to specializing?  (Actually, this is related to my long held belief that all SOLDIERS should be required to be Cbt Arms for their initial engagement, THEN branch off to CS/CSS trades)

I'm agreeing with you Gunner98 - your post above regarding how effective these folks were/are in command positions is EXACTLY what I'm talking about.  I would take the concept one step further and cause this happy outcome to be systemic, rather than subject to random chance.

(And when I'm the CDS ... ) !!!  ;D

 
When APS is finished this year 1 Cdn Fd Hosp will have a pretty good balance:
CO - RCR 10+yrs, now HSO
DCO - Gunner Offr 10+ yrs
OC Evac - Gunner Offr- 14+ yrs
OC HQ - Sig Op - ROTP, now HSO
OC Tmt - Nursing Offr - 10 yrs
OC HQ - Log O 10+ yrs (still Log O)
RSM - Dent Tech

HCA has taken more than 30 Cbt Arms Offrs in the past 7 years as OT.  It has given the branch some good grass roots building blocks.  The Guns permitted 37 offrs to OT during the period 98-02.  Those gaps have now been filled in the gun parks by former AIG, MWO, CWO.
 
Gunner98 said:
When APS is finished this year 1 Cdn Fd Hosp will have a pretty good balance:
CO - RCR 10+yrs, now HSO
DCO - Gunner Offr 10+ yrs
OC Evac - Gunner Offr- 14+ yrs
OC HQ - Sig Op - ROTP, now HSO
OC Tmt - Nursing Offr - 10 yrs
OC HQ - Log O 10+ yrs (still Log O)
RSM - Dent Tech

HCA has taken more than 30 Cbt Arms Offrs in the past 7 years as OT.  It has given the branch some good grass roots building blocks.  The Guns permitted 37 offrs to OT during the period 98-02.  Those gaps have now been filled in the gun parks by former AIG, MWO, CWO.

Yes, Sir - I understand what you're saying - Health Services is lead by many former Cbt Arms Offrs & NCOs who are no doubt doing and outstanding job.

Do you think this trend should be "enforced" by the system??
 
Retired CC said:
...

(1)   I believe that the present specialties (Tpt, Sup, Fin, Maint, etc) must be retained in SOME form.   I think there is a need for these specialists to act as advisors to the staff, as well as directing/supervising work by the associated NCM functions at the "coal face" (Jr Offr - Maj level).  
...

You'll forgive me, I hope, another gallop down history lane but I think it is important to revisit the whys and wherefores of arms (and later service) advisers.

Until the mid 19th century military operations, especially British military operations, might be (very loosely) divided into two categories:

"¢ Amateur; and

"¢ Professional.

The professional army consisted, in the main, of a few fortresses manned, mainly, by artillery batteries and a few household or body-guard units - now the Brigade of Guards, some engineers and some ordnance/armourer type folks.  The bulk of the army was in private hands - owned, literally by various dukes and barons and by e.g. the East India Company.  It needs to be emphasized that the Royal Navy was quite different - it was totally professional, including its Marines, and the dockyards at e.g. Chatham.

Most of the combat arms were in the amateur category.  It was considered that the average country gentleman could master the necessary skills for leading a company, regiment or even brigade in combat before the age of 15.  Those skills were very much learned on the playing fields of Eton, etc.  They involved toughness, discipline, loyalty and courage.  The business of battlefield manoeuvre had been codified by Fredrick the Great and the book would, early in the 19th century, be heavily revised by the Duke of Wellington (who would address the main issue which eluded Fredrick and Napoleon: how to get every musket into the fight, at the decisive time and place).  The business was not overly complicated except for three factors:

"¢ Where to place the guns;

"¢ How to supply the army - especially the guns;

"¢ How to build fortifications and, especially, roads and bridges to allow the army and its supply train, to deploy and manoeuvre.

A digression: logistics, until the end of the 19th century, was handled, for Britain, by something akin to today's alternate service delivery; it was contracted out to a mix of private contractors and the precursor of today's Union of National Defence Employees - the army commissariat department and the Royal Wagon Train which, gradually, over the entire 19th century morphed from civil service (Treasure Department) to uniformed army corps.  (See, also:  http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/33346.0.html The UNDE thread here on army.ca.  Maybe Gen. Hiller wants to go back to the future.)

Commanders, great ones like Wellington, and dunderheads like Raglan alike, were, generally, adequately served by their global logistics tail which was, in itself, a marvel of foresight and organization and, equally, often corrupt and inept in execution.

Given that there was little that commanders could do to improve the efficiency and effectiveness of their logistics services they had little need for advice on how to employ that tail - they just needed to know that it was there, working under its own standards and policies.

Artillery and the vexing problem of dumping artillery ammunition was another matter: commanders did have to make this work for themselves.  The 19th century was full of shrugged shoulders and raised palms and explanations like "the road (or bridge) collapsed under the weight of my ammunition wagons; that's why the guns never fired to support your attack!"  Commanders did need advice from their professional artillery and engineer officers re: what orders to give to whom in order to get the support which these specialist corps could provide.  It was then that the idea of the arms advisor was born.  It grew in the late 19th and early 20th centuries as technology - especially telegraphy, then aviation and finally radio - joined the army.  Technology and professional procedures now began to restrict commanders.  They (commanders) learned that it was counter-productive to try to push the specialists (now called the supporting arms) out of their lanes; it was easier, better, more effective to seek and take their advice.

World War II saw logistics come into its own.  It is important to understand that modern military logistics (and in some respects modern industry and the 21st century managed industrial society) was nurtured by a bunch of German, British and American army engineers.  We tend to think of supply, transport and maintenance as one (or two or three) fairly independent functions but they are, generally, managed as major engineering endeavours - fuel, for example flows through pipelines and seaports etc before it finds its way, as if by magic, into a bowser or some jerry cans .  Similarly, supply begins at the factory (maybe at the mine) and the things soldiers need must be designed, built, tested, purchased, warehoused, and moved over rail networks, etc.  It is, all-in-all, a highly organized or engineered enterprise.  Hence the domination of the Quartermaster General's staff by RE and RCE officers (in Britain and Canada, respectively) for most of the 20th century. 

Modern mechanized battle meant that commanders had, finally, to manage logistics, too.  Many were not up to the task.  They needed on the spot advice and the RCOC, RCASC and RCEME officers were given the same advisor status previously reserved for artillery, engineer, signals, aviation and medical specialists.

It seems to me that, at least about 20 years ago, because we did not have separate special staffs, we retained arms and service advisors, but:

"¢ The gunners are no longer advisers - they are an integral part of the command team at unit and formation level because the fire plan, the manoeuvre plan and the battle plan were so tightly integrated.  I'm prepared to concede that this changes when we enter low intensity combat operations where we have little, maybe no artillery;

"¢ Engineer advice was and remains absolutely essential because combat engineering is still a fairly narrow speciality which is inadequately understood by most other people;

"¢ Signals is morphing away from being a speciality and towards extinction.  Tactical (mobile) command and control systems (of which the signal system is just one subset) must still be designed by specialist engineers around radio networks (if it's mobile it needs radio, by definition) but it is not clear - not to me anyway - that we need specialist Signals officers and soldiers to install operate and maintain it.  (Maybe to install and maintain but not to operate - I suggest that almost all Signals people in the army, in the field, could be replaced by (trained) arms officers, NCOs and men without any significant loss of command and control system effectiveness.)  That being said the fellow responsible for the operation and maintenance of the command and control system must still be an advisor to the commander;

"¢ Aviation is still a specialized function and the aviation commander must also be an advisor to the commander; and

"¢ Ditto medical.

On the other hand we do have a separate specialist CSS staff: the G1 and G4 branches.  They - the G1 and G4 staff officers can seek technical details from the CSS officers and warrant officers in CSS units  and then the G1 and G4 can advise the commander.

Thus, without a shred of apology for all those words: I believe we can dispense with the service advisor function.

 



 
Edward Campbell said:
You'll forgive me, I hope, another gallop down history lane but I think it is important to revisit the whys and wherefores of arms (and later service) advisers.

Edward:

Not only do I "forgive" you - I encourage you!

And, should anyone else (aside from Mike, I mean) not be so inclined, then, to use the vernacular, "f**k 'em", I say!!

Anyway - I've only time to give your post the most cursory skimming at the moment, and to craft this smartass answer.  I will give your post the concentrated attention it deserves over the weekend, and post my non-"smartass" remarks then.

Regards.

 
Retired CC said:
Yes, Sir - I understand what you're saying - Health Services is lead by many former Cbt Arms Offrs & NCOs who are no doubt doing and outstanding job.

Do you think this trend should be "enforced" by the system??

IMHO, yes the trend should be enforced. The other half of the equation is the way it used to be and that was that Med Admin and Dental Admin Offrs came from the ranks or were retreads who were injured in the early stages of Phase Trg (Cbt Arms).  The proven Med/Dent Techs who reached Sgt-MWO were then CFR.  Their experience with the combat arms on patrols, deployments etc., gave them credibility.  Our current DComd Col Dave was a Sgt MedA who CFR.

The reality for our Branch, we currently have four physicians at the top DGHS, Surg Gen, D Health Ops, D Med Pol.  They have outstanding credentials and experience serving as unit COs, Base/Bde/Area/Fmn/TFK Surgs and CDLS positions. 

The challenge has been to provide them with the balanced "pointy end" perspective, therefore we have brought Naval, Air Foce (Pilots), and Inf senior officers in to fill the COS and Director positions.  Despite taking the senior offr training in Rome, Toronto etc., our internal developed Med/Dent Branch Offrs do not always get real credibility-building leadership and command experience.

We have not always succeeded at growing your own credibility and experience, and had to rely on the adage "beg, borrow and steal."  Building credibility from the ground up through CAP, Bde staff appointments and cross functional trg/postings/experience is the way to go, it gives you the perspective required to work in synch with the "boots and treads" on the ground, the "hulls in the water" and the "wings and blades" in the air.
 
well this has gotten compleatly off topic!!!!

This thread was to discuss how and why members can or can not get the correct kit and how someone can fix or try and fix the flawed system
 
This topic has been suckified by "how the forces should run" group.
In Lahr these guys would bee seen at 2100 in the Centenial Club  on a Friday in their CF's wondering why they were still Cpls and how "things would be different if I was in charge" (usually at the "regulars" table)

Oh well.

GRAMPS nice to see you got them new laces you needed.
 
mover1 said:
This topic has been suckified by "how the forces should run" group.
In Lahr these guys would bee seen at 2100 in the Centenial Club   on a Friday in their CF's wondering why they were still Cpls and how "things would be different if I was in charge" (usually at the "regulars" table)

Oh well.

GRAMPS nice to see you got them new laces you needed.

Let's see - somewhere around 7 August this thread began to go off-topic.

Between 7 and 12 August there was some lively discussion (off-topic, I agree).

It's now 17 August (10 days after the last on-topic post), nothing else has been added (on OR off topic) for 5 days, you, apparently have nothing to add, except to whine about it being off topic!

You'd better check the profiles of those who "would have been Cpls" in Lahr.  Seems you may be referring to a retired Sr Offr, a retired WO, and a serving Sr Offr - we probably wouldn't be welcome in the "Cpl's Club".

Now I've added a reply to your non-topically whine, taking us even further off topic!

However, you are essentially (if belated) correct regarding being off-topic.  D'ya think perhaps that is why nothing has been added for 5 days?? 
 
Your right. I did whine, on a blog spot where topics four years old get resurrected regularly.
I should have checked in while I was on vacation so i could have kept current and up to date on all posts.

I don't regularly check profiles.  Nor do I feel the need to. To me you are just a name.
my comments were directed to  sigtech.

SIR

 
no worries mover1 and Roy take a chill, if you saw I also mentioned this was getting off topic long ago.
If you want to discuss how things are run and who should be in charge here is a idea start you own thread. i hate when people on here get all bent out of shape like it is a personal attack on them.
chill man
 
Im frosty.
And I to get back on topic there are a few supp techs out there that are trying to change the system.

For example.
Did you know if an Item is not used for 4 years it is taken off the lists in Ottawa. My wife who works in supply was trying to get some screws for an Aircraft Window. The  order was for 4 of them. The last time they were ordered was over 4 years ago ( the order was for 100 of them) These lasted a long time. The problem was that recently the sytem ran out. And because of the time laps, hard to get.

So she in her wisdom brought this up and trying to come up with a system that
a. keeps enough in stock
b. still gets ordered regularly as to not be stricken from the system
 
mover1 said:
So she in her wisdom brought this up and trying to come up with a system that
a. keeps enough in stock
b. still gets ordered regularly as to not be stricken from the system

the only one way I can think of is to change thier max and mins to a lower value..  so if they are on a SSS account, and have a max of like 100 and min is 20 they should change to like 10 and 25, this will or should make sure that when they got to 10 they are re-ordered...
so having a high max min is bad, and can result in situations that she now faces....
 
So the other day I am heading out to the field and I see a one of the bin-rats that told me I wasn't entitled to a small-pack wear one.
I over hear him tell his buddy ya I had to grab one they are great for PT.
isn't that lovly
 
Our supply system has always been like this.  I've been waiting to get a new pair of contact gloves (my size) for over 2 years.  Every time I go to base clothing, they're out of stock.  It sucks but you learn to deal with it.  It all comes down to lack of money, and as stated earlier, troops on deployment have (should) priority over garrison troops.  Mind you, even overseas, they have their problems.  We had an AZ/EL from one of our Coyotes break and it took over 3 weeks to get it back into service because there are no spare AZ/EL's in the system and we had to wait for a chip to be delivered from Canada to get it back working again
 
I have to give the Air Force there dues, at least they just went and bought everything all at once. Where does this come from , I go to turn in my Combat Jacket and I can't. Why no sizes they don't make the green ones anymore, Can I get the Cad on well i am entitled but this base doesn't have them for Army and don't know when they are going to get them , guess it is going to be a cold winter lol.
 
"Clothe the Soldier"? More like "Tease the Soldier"  They show you gucci kit, but won't actually give it to you.  But this isn't my real beef, we don't have the money, we don't have the money.................. But in Petawawa, we have a few tyrannical civvies behind the counter who won't give the kit they DO have - theres a big problem.  For the life of me, I don't understand this............... They have no rank, they're NOT in the CF and yet they still act as if this is their kit!  One of the most frustrating things in the world is trying to explain to a civvy in a supply depot why you need to exchange kit, when they don't even know what it's for! All they know is they have it, and they ain't givin' it.
 
Hey that is every base, can't remember his name but the civie in Gagetown was horrable. If we don't have the money how does the Air Force find the money just to go out and in one swoop buy all the ICE system. Again got to give them there dues , they just did it and all there troops are equipt with the kit they need
 
I don't know how they did it but they do deserve kudos on a job well done.
They sized everyone months in advance and when the stock came in, the e-mails went out and voila, one garbage bage full of kit. sized to you.
The Airforce does have one advantage. They don't need to feild test too much. so mostly its off the shelf purchases. The best part of all the airforce kit is the strap that can hold a coffe mug ( actually its for ear defenders) and Fleece lined pockets. Warm to put your hands in.

Now if only they can tie their boots up properly, zip up them jackets. Wear headress in the mall AND learn to roll their sleeves up properly.
 
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