Suggested changes to CAF TOS [split from changes to dress]

[PPCLI Guy]

Oh the confidence of the young and .........

I'll play.

Is your ellipsis followed by:

Open-minded?
Forward thinking?
Fed up with the dinocracy?
Right on all counts?

 

[jollyjacktar]

Oh the confidence of the young and .........

I am anything but young.  As a matter of fact I'm older than some of these men.  But I do know the quality of them and we're going to be poorer because of it.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I am anything but young.  As a matter of fact I'm older than some of these men.  But I do know the quality of them and we're going to be poorer because of it.

I'm seeing it too.  early to mid 20 years olds, newly promoted Cpls and MCpls, in an aircrew trade making spec pay, aircrew allowance and decent TD trips and they're saying "no thanks!" to their next TOS.

It's not because they can't grow long hair or wear earrings, it's because they will go do other things where they feel their employer gives more of a crap about them and they aren't part of an adult daycare system.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I'm seeing it too.  early to mid 20 years olds, newly promoted Cpls and MCpls, in an aircrew trade making spec pay, aircrew allowance and decent TD trips and they're saying "no thanks!" to their next TOS.

It's not because they can't grow long hair or wear earrings, it's because they will go do other things where they feel their employer gives more of a crap about them and they aren't part of an adult daycare system.

My platoon recently had 3 privates not resign their contracts after their initial TOS. These guys were incredible. Smart, fit, motivated, kind of guys you'd fight to have in your section going over seas. Could have seen all 3 going on PLQ sooner rather than later.

They quit because they're tired of not deploying and also doing 2 or 3 times the amount of the work in the platoon because while they're motivated, there are also sick-chit slugs who aren't and they have to pick up their slack.

Has nothing to do with stupid dress regs or haircuts. Everything with being treated like a training aid and coexisting with adult children whom the CoC can't get rid of.

 

[FSTO]

I am anything but young.  As a matter of fact I'm older than some of these men.  But I do know the quality of them and we're going to be poorer because of it.

My comment was directed towards cheeky_monkey who had a negative comment towards dinosaurs. But I liked JJT response so I used it. Should have used the multi-quote button.

Woops! 

 

[FSTO]

I'll play.

Is your ellipsis followed by:

Open-minded?
Forward thinking?
Fed up with the dinocracy?
Right on all counts?

We also need people who have the wisdom to realize that not all new ideas are great ideas.

Anyway, the institution needs to figure out WTF is the reasoning people are leaving. All these feel good statements from the CoC about our people, mission, blah blah certainly doesn't seem to be convincing motivated people to stay.

 

[Underway]

We also need people who have the wisdom to realize that not all new ideas are great ideas.

Then get rid of the tyranny of the "Leading Change" bubble.

 

[jollyjacktar]

We also need people who have the wisdom to realize that not all new ideas are great ideas.

Anyway, the institution needs to figure out WTF is the reasoning people are leaving. All these feel good statements from the CoC about our people, mission, blah blah certainly doesn't seem to be convincing motivated people to stay.

You have read my comments in other threads moaning about the Mar Tech train wreck.

This decision has had a gigantic negative effect upon the morale of all three legacy marine engineering trades.  The younger sailors who are punching out and not re-signing TOS can be largely attributed to this and other changes that have been foisted upon us. 

For old bastards like myself, this also has had a knock on effect too.  Add to it the openings in industry that might be had by experienced personnel and you have the makings of a perfect storm.

At first, l do believe the adults were not too worried by it all, now however, the see we're missing a leg and they're desparate to apply quick clot and a tourniqet.  Thus the letters begging guys to come back and one on one interviews with guys who have put their release in to see what's going on.

I fear the damage has been done and all's that's stopping the intermediate guys from joining in the exodus is they have too much time invested and not enough time for a pension. 

Even then, l was talking with a fellow P2 in the office from one of the other two legacy trades.  He has about 12 years service and has had enough, he is planning his exit and will be gone sometime this year, l expect.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

We also need people who have the wisdom to realize that not all new ideas are great ideas.

Anyway, the institution needs to figure out WTF is the reasoning people are leaving. All these feel good statements from the CoC about our people, mission, blah blah certainly doesn't seem to be convincing motivated people to stay.

All true.  By most peoples standards (and if you cut me down and counted the rings it would confirm) that I look like a dinosaur.  I have also been saying for some time, to some very senior people, that:

We cannot have a 21st century military with our 1950s Human Resources system
If youth today plan on having 7 different careers in their life, let's figure out how to make 4 of them on the military
Releases should have a 365 day no penalty get back in clause, back into the same job in the same location
The membrane between full and part time service need to be permeable
We need a formal system of sabbaticals, without career penalties
That we need to enter into contracts with our people on a routine basis, where THEY get to make demands too - and then fire the CofC if they abrogate.  This cannot be a Career Manager function
Speaking of which, we have rank amateurs playing at HR - we call them Career Managers.  Their powers need to be severely curtailed, or their own professional training and career path needs to be changed dramatically
We let people be geo-static......at 85% of their pay rate
We don't insist that every job in the military be an entry level job.  If we need middle management HR people, we hire them on a limited contract as Majors (as an example).

I could go on....

 

[dimsum]

All true.  By most peoples standards (and if you cut me down and counted the rings it would confirm) that I look like a dinosaur.  I have also been saying for some time, to some very senior people, that:

We cannot have a 21st century military with our 1950s Human Resources system
If youth today plan on having 7 different careers in their life, let's figure out how to make 4 of them on the military
Releases should have a 365 day no penalty get back in clause, back into the same job in the same location
The membrane between full and part time service need to be permeable
We need a formal system of sabbaticals, without career penalties
That we need to enter into contracts with our people on a routine basis, where THEY get to make demands too - and then fire the CofC if they abrogate.  This cannot be a Career Manager function
Speaking of which, we have rank amateurs playing at HR - we call them Career Managers.  Their powers need to be severely curtailed, or their own professional training and career path needs to be changed dramatically
We let people be geo-static......at 85% of their pay rate
We don't insist that every job in the military be an entry level job.  If we need middle management HR people, we hire them on a limited contract as Majors (as an example).

I could go on....

The Sabbaticals alone would help tons - some people will get out and love it, while some realize the grass isn't always greener.  All of the other things are amazing too...if they get implemented.

 

[jollyjacktar]

I regularly seem to be at odds with what you propose, PPCLI.  But not today.  I find you have made some outstanding suggestions and perhaps were they be implemented it would have a beneficial result in all regards.

If it is true that the Adults do indeed creep here for intel purposes, they will give your thoughts full consideration.  BZ.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

My platoon recently had 3 privates not resign their contracts after their initial TOS. These guys were incredible. Smart, fit, motivated, kind of guys you'd fight to have in your section going over seas. Could have seen all 3 going on PLQ sooner rather than later.

They quit because they're tired of not deploying and also doing 2 or 3 times the amount of the work in the platoon because while they're motivated, there are also sick-chit slugs who aren't and they have to pick up their slack.

Has nothing to do with stupid dress regs or haircuts. Everything with being treated like a training aid and coexisting with adult children whom the CoC can't get rid of.

Well then...lets replace those 3 fit keener with people who are willing to join now because they can keep their flowing locks and piercings 

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Then get rid of the tyranny of the "Leading EFFECTIVE/USEFUL Change" bubble.

Or change it some 

 

[daftandbarmy]

Or change it some 

You win the Internet today  :rofl:

 

[kratz]

Then get rid of the tyranny of the "Leading EFFECTIVE/USEFUL Change" bubble.

[quote author=Eye In The Sky]
Or change it some 
[/quote]

Double Plus MilPoints...change is required so the system does not stagnate, but does NOT encourage change for change's sake / promotion's sake.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

All true.  By most peoples standards (and if you cut me down and counted the rings it would confirm) that I look like a dinosaur.  I have also been saying for some time, to some very senior people, that:

We cannot have a 21st century military with our 1950s Human Resources system
If youth today plan on having 7 different careers in their life, let's figure out how to make 4 of them on the military
Releases should have a 365 day no penalty get back in clause, back into the same job in the same location
The membrane between full and part time service need to be permeable
We need a formal system of sabbaticals, without career penalties
That we need to enter into contracts with our people on a routine basis, where THEY get to make demands too - and then fire the CofC if they abrogate.  This cannot be a Career Manager function
Speaking of which, we have rank amateurs playing at HR - we call them Career Managers.  Their powers need to be severely curtailed, or their own professional training and career path needs to be changed dramatically
We let people be geo-static......at 85% of their pay rate
We don't insist that every job in the military be an entry level job.  If we need middle management HR people, we hire them on a limited contract as Majors (as an example).

I could go on....

I'm pretty much behind everything you've said here, but the part in yellow I have some concerns with.  My initial thought was 'posting avoidance' - Sgt Bloggins wants to stay in Sherwater, gets told he/she is posted to CFEWC...holy crap, there goes PLD, sea duty pay and aircrew allowance!  I'll release then, and after the APS...I'll just go back and now, they've already posted someone to fill that CFEWC job.  I can stay in Shearwater, keep my PLD etc.

One quick thought on why that one I am a little skeptical on.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Double Plus MilPoints...change is required so the system does not stagnate, but does NOT encourage change for change's sake / promotion's sake.

If we inserted the word EFFECTIVE....could we then not give people Unacceptable/Needs Improvement for their dumb ideas?  ;D

 

[kratz]

Eye In The Sky,

I like how you think.

So allowing a  "Releases should have a 365 day no penalty get back in clause, back into the same job in the same location"

How would you write an HR policy note to address and restrict abuse of the real issue you mentioned?
Part of the solution vice objecting to change.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Eye In The Sky,

I like how you think.

So allowing a  "Releases should have a 365 day no penalty get back in clause, back into the same job in the same location"

How would you write an HR policy note to address and restrict abuse of the real issue you mentioned?
Part of the solution vice objecting to change.

I'd amend it...365 day no penalty get back in clause but remove the 'same job, same location' part, that way people aren't guaranteed they 'keep flying in Shearwater and raking in the PLD/SDA/AIRCRA' bucks.  Or whatever made them want to avoid a posting.

However...if the TOS for both Res and Reg are modernized like some of the rumours are suggesting they may be, this wouldn't be a major concern.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

This is where we have to think outside the box, as in all of these suggestions.  We can no longer afford policies that are geared at the mean of a 100K personnel sized organisation.  We need the policy space to allow us to tailor our HR solutions - this is not about necessarily keeping a gal in for 25 years - it is about ensuring that at least 15 of those years are in the CAF.

There will always be outliers and abusers...who brought us the punitive door to door move bullshit, the IR clampdown etc etc.  So, we either continue to punish the 98%, or we either accept the 2% abusers.....or we have contracts instead of terms of service, and throw the bums out who abuse the system.  As a leader, I would want the policy space to sweeten the deal for the high performers, and the top cover to get rid of the shitbirds, but as long as we have one size fits all restrictive and proscriptive policies, then leaders will continue to be eunuchs in the face of the HR system as it stands right now.

This is not an easy thing - it involves rethinking every aspect of our HR policy....but it needs to be done