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Stress Disorder More Common in Women

Casting stones,

May I show you the door outside of the glass house that you sit, sot htat you may carry on with your inteded presentation of opinion...

dileas

tess

 
the 48th regulator said:
And You were part of the medical community, that treated us who  served???  Bogging down?

It is attitudes like this comment, and that of what 3rd has been stating, that has caused troops, and their wives, to hide the fact they are suffering.  Who would want to seek help for PTSD when they woukd be considered a burden "bogging" down the system.

Disgusting comment, to say the least.

dileas

tess

Point taken...bogging down was a bad term. I should have been more clear.
 
Please, however, look at my entire post and not just one specific misjudgement in phrasing.  I am asking what effect having more and more diagnoses of PTSD (for what really equates to common life experiences) will have on the perception of the seriousness of what our soldiers go through.  

I am very aware that it is a serious disorder- and I do not want anyone to mess with it, simply because I know that it is serious.

I feel - my opinion - that if multitudes of people start claiming for PTSD (for bullying/accidents/family illnesses), military people/critically traumatized people who suffer will not get the acknowledgement they deserve and could possibly suffer delays in care and benefits.  If a label or diagnosis affects this, can they not call it something else- or differentiate in some way?

Being in health care-knowing the wait lists etc for care- a differentiation in such a diagnosis would help in prioritizing care.



 
48,

  You know what I mean, and I know I sit in a glass house so can we not just discuss the issue? No one that I can see on this thread is trying to make things worse they are just discussing the issue. I cannot see the harm in getting to a better understanding of the whole issue by hearing others opinions even if you don't agree.

I know this issue is important to you so here is a question. What harm would be done if the diagnosis was split into several categories vice the current single heading? With a split would more soldiers come forward or less? Would the split cause a better understanding and make it easier for a soldier to come forward? Notwithstanding that the treatment would be similar.

Asked with the best of intentions.

3rd
 
SamIAm said:
When you have an inkling as to the operation of the diagnostic criteria of the DSM IV, come back and post here.  Until then, why don't you stop with the armchair diagnosis and critique of those things that do not fit into your world view.

(And yes, I have the expertise to back up what I am saying.  Expertise that comes from education and training, not personal experience -- which, in my not-so-humble opinion, compromises your objectivity.)

May I ask what your education and training is?-your profile is quite sketchy. 
I'm really hoping to find some medical types to weigh in on this- people who work or have worked in the mental health field. It would help give us an idea about how this issue is viewed by those who work with the diagnostics of PTSD. 
 
3rd Horseman said:
48,

  You know what I mean, and I know I sit in a glass house so can we not just discuss the issue? No one that I can see on this thread is trying to make things worse they are just discussing the issue. I cannot see the harm in getting to a better understanding of the whole issue by hearing others opinions even if you don't agree.

I know this issue is important to you so here is a question. What harm would be done if the diagnosis was split into several categories vice the current single heading? With a split would more soldiers come forward or less? Would the split cause a better understanding and make it easier for a soldier to come forward? Notwithstanding that the treatment would be similar.

Asked with the best of intentions.

3rd

And you know that the current diagnosis is also assessed via percentage. 

http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/content/dispen/1995tod/tab21_02.htm

Why would we want further complicate assessments by adding new categories and "Names" to please someone like you?  I have been satisfied with the way it has been looked at, as it has been a long time coming.

dileas

tess


 
          I don't believe gender is the predisposing factor to stress disorders , it is the traumatic occurance or event an individual is exposed to. I disagree that women are more susceptible to stress disorders than men, I believe we men are conditioned to suppress our emotions so it comes out initially as anger instead.
    I think men take a little longer to surrender to stressful emotions but all eventually succumb. I guarantee you that when our male soldiers return home many will cry in their wives or girlfriends arms recalling what happened. There is no greater healing than the love and understanding of a good woman. But those women will also carry the burden when they hear the stories and they too will feel the stressful emotions. It is the the ones who return home quiet and sullen or consistently angry that I would be most worried about.
      Personally I don't care if the insurance companies get overwhelmed by PTSD claims as long as the individuals are diagnosed by mental health professionals and get the full treatment they deserve.
      Below is a link to an article explaining the difference between PTSD and Acute Stress Disorder. Both have similar symptomology however it is time factor which determines the PTSD diagnoses by mental health professionals.


http://www.anxietytreatment.ca/posttrauma.htm
 
A bit more reading...for those interested.

http://expertpages.com/news/ptsd.htm, and http://www.lib.auburn.edu/socsci/docs/ptsd.html.

FWIW, I'm sorry that my lack of clarity led some of you to believe that I am cold and working against military personnel and their families.  Nothing could be further from the truth...and I can only hope you will give me the benefit of the doubt on that.  

The links I've provided show that psychological labels can have ramifications in the worlds of law and insurance.  For those interested in the topic- I hope you find them interesting.

48, you said you're satisified with how it is being handled, and that it has been a long time in coming. The legitimacy of PTSD has been a long time in coming.  I think it was too long in coming and a little too hard won, at that.  I, therefore, don't want anything to detract from the disorder being taken seriously in the future.

I don't really think we need to add new "labels" and mental health categories.  I think there enough of them now that there would be a good fit for any stress reaction or anxiety condition that is experienced.  Diagnosticians just really need to take care in assessing and evaluating for criteria related to PTSD.
The legitimacy that was so hard won and so long in coming- the legitimacy that gives special acknowledgement to the stressors experienced by those in combat/ war and life threatening circumstances- will, I fear- be lost if the diagnostic criteria are applied to people who suffer from experiences far outside of those situations.

This is no way means I would deny anyone the right to seek treatment.  Nor does it mean I would argue the pain and stress people in other circumstances can go through.

It was always about protecting the hard won acceptance of the condition, for me.





 
I agree with 3rd Horseman when he says it has to be differentiated in some way.  My biggest concern- I stated before- is that the seriousness of the condition our soldiers suffer (and those who suffer serious war crimes- any number of unthinkable things) will be diluted and trivialized.

I can't believe that this would ever be the case.  Anyone who treats any patient living with a mental health issue knows that not one issue is the same, and thus each new case must be dealt with slightly differently.

Someone listed a bullying site as a link for PTSD.  I guess I'm quite judgemental when I say I think that bullying-while certainly stressful and unfortunate- is not on the same level of horrible as the things that many of you experience/experienced.  I don't know- I've only dealt with those like you as patients- what are your personal thoughts?

Unfortunately some bullying can be quite severe and traumatic -- everything from being jumped every day after school to being sexually assaulted.  Although I may be opening a completely different can of worms, I suspect a woman who has been violated might be considered to have suffered something more traumatic than a soldier in the field, who knows very well that his/her job is a dangerous and sometimes very violent one, where their friends or they might never come home.  The point -- every person reacts to various issues differently.  Who are you to say that bullying, or any other manner of noncombat incidences is less stressful on a person?

I am asking what effect having more and more diagnoses of PTSD (for what really equates to common life experiences) will have on the perception of the seriousness of what our soldiers go through.

I fail to see how a wife having to deal with the injury/death of her husband can be considered a "common life experience."  How about a sexual assault?  Id that a "common life experience"?  What you have essentially just said that any of these incidences that people might have dealt with, resulting in a diagnosis of PTS(maybe including D), is something that they should be able to handle?  Again, every person deals with things differently.  Let's change this to something a little more physical and tangible.  Say you're in the back of a Herc and buddy next to you starts using his "boarding pass".  A few others start getting a sympathetic reaction, but you are fine and it doesn't bother you one bit.  Are these guys wimps?  After all, a ride in a Herc is a "common life experience" in the military (or should be anyway ;D).  Of course they aren't.  Their bodies are all just reacting to physical stressors in their own way, which happens to be different from your own.  Mental issues are dealt with the same way.

The legitimacy that was so hard won and so long in coming- the legitimacy that gives special acknowledgement to the stressors experienced by those in combat/ war and life threatening circumstances- will, I fear- be lost if the diagnostic criteria are applied to people who suffer from experiences far outside of those situations.

This statement just serves to trivialize everyone else.  I would hate to have my parents treated differently (read: less than) because they are dealing with something that might have happened to me.

I am not an expert so my comment is only a guess but I would agree with you that the treatment is very similar. But then I have never argued it was not just that the wording of the diagnosis should be different.

We aren't talking about the flu or strep throat.  Give everyone the same treatment and they will turn out fine.  Mental health does NOT work that way.  Similar, possibly, at the start.  But each patient ends up with a method of treatment that is specialized to them.  If your treatment is similar to that of a friend's it's most likely because you both share similar traits, have dealt with the same stress, and have found something that works for both of you.  Either that, or you are both in the beginning stages of your treatment.  However, add some time in there (10 yrs+) and you night find that your methods and treatments have differed somewhat.

What harm would be done if the diagnosis was split into several categories vice the current single heading?

Can you imaging?  post-combat stress disorder...empathetic stress disorder...bullying stress disorder...lost-my-job-and-am-declaring-bankrupcy-disorder... was-sexually-abused-as-a child stress disorder...etc,etc,etc.


End note:  I have said some pretty harsh things here, and if I have upset anyone in any way, I sincerely apologize.  I just get annoyed when someone says that the pain one person is feeling is less important than the pain of another.  I have been guilty of that myself at times.  However, before anyone starts jumping down my throat asking where all this knowledge comes from, let's just chalk it up to having many friends and a bit of personal experience in the matter.  That's it on that subject of me.  Period.
 
Strike,

    As Battle Axe has said I agree with her. She has more experience with this then any of us on this thread closely followed by those with the disorder. When the issue of PTSD was not on anyones radar some of us were developing  an idea to help soldiers with PTSD over a beer at the Halifax mess while taking breaks from the Swiss Air recovery. That idea became the OSSIS program. You can call me anything you want when it comes to my views but don't ever say I don't care or am not trying to make things better for the soldier who suffers PTSD from operational combat stress.

Let us agree to disagree but promise to work towards better status and understanding for sufferer's.
 
don't ever say I don't care or am not trying to make things better for the soldier who suffers PTSD from operational combat stress.

Don't recall saying that.  If that's what you got out of that post, I'm sorry.  I'm just trying to say that it would be too difficult to try and categorize this disorder any more than it already is.  I also don't believe that the jump in diagnosis in the general population will trivialize what combat pers are dealing with.  To insinuate that only serves to trivialize every one else.
 
Strike said:
I fail to see how a wife having to deal with the injury/death of her husband can be considered a "common life experience."  How about a sexual assault?  Id that a "common life experience"?  What you have essentially just said that any of these incidences that people might have dealt with, resulting in a diagnosis of PTS(maybe including D), is something that they should be able to handle?  Again, every person deals with things differently. 

With respect, Strike.  I've spent time as a nurse in the ICU and on the wards.  Trauma, pain and the suffering asociated with the illnesses of loved ones are very much "common life experiences".  Not nice ones, and please never assume that I am unsympathetic to the pain these experiences cause, but very common experiences nonetheless.  Everybody reading this thread can come up with a moment-one incident- that rattled them to the core and kept them from sleeping.  God bless those who haven't as very lucky.

I, my opinion here, feel that many soldiers have a disorder that many fought and bled to have acknowledged. It was distinctive and unique to what people who experienced war/battle/first hand personal trauma suffered.  There are many serious diagnoses already in the DSM that cover all other kinds of stress and the anxiety caused by life stressors that all people go through at one time or another.

Once again I will say that I would not be concerned with what term is applied to anybody- except that I feel that overuse of the diagnosis may lead to problems for veterans and soldiers.  I have asked others who deal more closely in insurance and legal issues for guidance on this - because I may be over reacting- but this is my concern. Add more to an already overburdened system-and you'll see delays in benefits and a harder time having PTSD accepted as an insurable or disability condition.  Thoughts on this?

Right now we have insurance companies and medical adjudicators who look at the diagnosis of PTSD and give it some weight-because it implies a harsh personal experience and has punch-because it has been accepted and proven and it's relatively clear cut.  If everybody who experienced normal life stressors (harsh and traumatic yes, but normal) is given the diagnosis, its going to lose its punch and distinction.

Just because I am concerned about keeping some distinction and boundaries in the diagnostic criteria for PTSD does not make me heartless to everyone else.  I do not expect anybody to handle undue stress on their own. I ask that you keep that in mind.  These are my opinions only, and its an interesting discussion. 

 
3rd Horseman said:
She has more experience with this then any of us on this thread closely followed by those with the disorder.

3rd, thanks for the support, but I just need to turn your sentence around.  Those with the disorder come first in experience and understanding it- all the way. I'll take some credit for having worked with sufferers and understanding why they suffer from it. My knowledge and experience come from being a former military nurse. Just want to make that clear to everyone else, as well- I'm not a mental health professional-I just dealt with the issues in the course of what I did.
 
I can understand your concern wrt insurance and such.  Once again, the military takes a lead in helping out the rest -- although it's usually with technology.  ;)  The fact that members of the military have brought PTSD to the forfront and have had it recognized has certainly ensured that many others can get the help they need.  I'm sure you know of more than a few people that would have been deemed manic depressive only a few years back when in fact they are dealing with PTS.

As for the "common life experiences" (yes, back to that again  ;D), playing devil's advocate, one could argue that death and injury are such an experience for a soldier.  Of course, it shouldn't be -- for anyone, even a soldier -- but might be considered as such.  That's why I have such trouble with that reference in your posts above.  I know you've seen quite a bit through your work, which is (unfortunately) all too common in the safe western world of today.  It doesn't mean that it is common in the rest of the population, and it certainly isn't anything that people can be expected to deal with w/o any help.  As common as muggings are, the old lady who had her house broken into is probably dealing with some type of PTS.  Why?  Because the event isn't all that common to her.  And it was probably quite traumatic too.

In your work you may see quite a bit of this, which makes it common for you -- the nature of the job.  However, it's not common for everyone else.  I'm trying to get this out in words but I'm having a hard time of it.  Do you get where I'm coming from?  Things are a little more dilluted outside the clinic/hospital.
 
Strike,

I do get where you're coming from...and it is hard to explain it without coming off as judgemental or uncaring.  Maybe, I am jaded and  immune- I've seen more than most but not as much as some. Good point, and I'll try to keep that in mind if they allow this way-off-topic thread to continue.
Also from where I am (I'm not currently practicing but I keep my nose in the business of nursing) I know the way the system is stretched and resources are tight.  Having studied disability management, I know what a hot topic mental illness has become for insurers, taxpayers, and employers. I believe there are ramifications to things like this. For everybody.



 
I know what a hot topic mental illness has become

I know exactly what you mean.  If you can't see it (sling, crutches, bandages, etc) than it doesn't exist.  It's a bum rap for anyone dealing with a mental illness.  Which is why I am glad that the military and its members are taking a stand on the issue.  It only serves to help everyone in the long run.
 
Unfortunately, we are taking the wrong stand.

Operational Stress from combat actions in a Special Duty Area should be pensionable.  As for the rest: if the CF did not demonstably cause it, it's not our fix to fund.

We have to stop the 'Three years at home on full pay' scams for guys with no tours.  Do they suffer PTSD because their Mommy didn't hug them enough?  Maybe.  Should DND fund that?  NO!

Tom
 
I agree that most PTSD are caused by a SDA. I know people that have done no tours and are PTSD caused by the forces. You absolutely do not need to be on a tour to have a PTSD.

Yes there are people who have abused of the system.

TCBF said:
Unfortunately, we are taking the wrong stand.

Operational Stress from combat actions in a Special Duty Area should be pensionable.  As for the rest: if the CF did not demonstably cause it, it's not our fix to fund.

We have to stop the 'Three years at home on full pay' scams for guys with no tours.  Do they suffer PTSD because their Mommy didn't hug them enough?  Maybe.  Should DND fund that?  NO!

Tom
 
The military had no choice to open up to the fact of PTSD. They have been well aware of PTSD but it was hard for them to acknowledge it, yet diagnosis it. There is still a long way to go. Don't quite agree that the military has taken the lead. They were indirectly forced with veterans getting PTSD pensions etc.

Strike said:
I can understand your concern wrt insurance and such.  Once again, the military takes a lead in helping out the rest -- although it's usually with technology.  ;)  The fact that members of the military have brought PTSD to the forfront and have had it recognized has certainly ensured that many others can get the help they need.  I'm sure you know of more than a few people that would have been deemed manic depressive only a few years back when in fact they are dealing with PTS.
 
It's hard to make real progess when this has become such a cash cow for scam artists and malingerers.

We hire people who are medically fit, so there is a requirement to release them as medically fit as possible.

We do not hire people who are dentally fit, so there is NO requirement to release them as dentally fit as possible - though we often do.  Look it up.

We do not psch test all recruits to the CF, and those of you who have spent some time in the CF know that we do not therefore necessarily hire people who are mentally fit (the murderers Clayton Matchee and Micheal White being but two examples).

Therefore, there is NO requirement to release them as mentally fit as possible.

Now, DND caused OSI/PTSD is one thing, but issues related to potty training/a violent mother are beyond our control, and hopefully beyond our funding envelope.

Release as 'irregular enrollment' and carry on.
 
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