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Is the practice of 4-man stacking outside a building still being taught/practiced as standard means of entry?
Stacking in OBUA/FIBUA/MOUT/CQB
- Thread starter Matt_Fisher
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Generally yes Matt. They're telling us not to get locked down on the numbers though. Sometimes it doesnt make sense, as I am sure you're more than aware, to send 4 guys into a tiny room.
I'm sure there's alot more experience out there with this than me though.
I'm sure there's alot more experience out there with this than me though.
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no i just took a gunfighter course which is all cqb related drills, and as soon as u enter the room, the room is declared "SMALL ROOM" or... SHORT WALL LEFT, SHORT WALL RIGHT, and the minimum we try to get into that room is 3, more fire power, more targets the enemy has to focus on.
i'm not really one to say anything like this, kinda a newb in the army, but thats the way we were taught.
i'm not really one to say anything like this, kinda a newb in the army, but thats the way we were taught.
MJP
Army.ca Fixture
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It is something that the 3rd Battalion put together themselves. Basically a week long course that emphasizes close quarter shooting. DEVO would know the exact details a bit better having just done it. I know the 1st is going to be doing it or a variation of it sometime in the near future.
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the gunfighter course is all about quick aim shooting.(not instinctive anymore), every shot u fire is through the site picture.
the goal of gunfighter is to get your double tap down to .7 of a second with a grouping the size of a nickel. and for automatic, 2-3 round bursts, 2 mags worth, into a grouping the size of a toonie. And i'd just like to say, with the new training from our Q, we were able to meet the standards.
After u meet the standards u are taken into CQB, and start going through shoot, no shoot targets, and they do make it tricky. Nothing like running through a killhouse with hells bells blaring through the stereo, and targets all over the place. Then after a day of that, it moves to simunition, and the intensity goes a notch up.
Apparently things have changed a little bit, i was on the pilot course, but they made it a bit shorter now, and less rounds.
If u have anymore questions just send me a message and i'll do my best to answer them
the goal of gunfighter is to get your double tap down to .7 of a second with a grouping the size of a nickel. and for automatic, 2-3 round bursts, 2 mags worth, into a grouping the size of a toonie. And i'd just like to say, with the new training from our Q, we were able to meet the standards.
After u meet the standards u are taken into CQB, and start going through shoot, no shoot targets, and they do make it tricky. Nothing like running through a killhouse with hells bells blaring through the stereo, and targets all over the place. Then after a day of that, it moves to simunition, and the intensity goes a notch up.
Apparently things have changed a little bit, i was on the pilot course, but they made it a bit shorter now, and less rounds.
If u have anymore questions just send me a message and i'll do my best to answer them
H
hogstable
Guest
I am a territorial Engineer in the Uk and I am planning an execise for my guys. The problem is that with a lot of engineers its a case of 'thats an infantry job" which I find hard to reconcile with since a) it's wrong and b) I'm ex infantry myself although we never covered that in the early 1990's. This means I can't really ask any of my seniors so whats the best way to get info about building clearing drills which we will need to be able to do even if it just from a force protection angle.
Good site wish the British Army had something like this !!!
If you can direct me any help will be appreciated I assure you.
Good site wish the British Army had something like this !!!
If you can direct me any help will be appreciated I assure you.
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Thanks for the feedback.
In the Marine Corps we're tending to move away from the 4-man stack as the primary means of entry into a building. Recent combat operations in Iraq (namely Falluja and Ramadi) have shown that approximately 50% of friendly casualties were inflicted to troops bunching up in stacks outside of buildings.
The insurgent forces were specifically targeting doorways into buildings as they'd become accustomed to the US SOP of stacking troops outside. From overwatch positions they would hit these stacks with a mixture of AK, HMG and RPG fire to inflict multiple casualties. From inside the buildings it was common to find HMGs set up that were used to shoot through exterior walls as an entry team came into the building.
What has resulted from this 'lesson-learned' process is that we're now moving to a 2-man stack operation when entering buildings. 2 men will stack to gain a foothold and the remainder of the force will bump 2 men at a time into the building, similar to the danger area crossing drill. Also, whenever possible we're now breaching the exterior walls to create our own entryway inside the building, either through the use of man-portable shape charges, or tank-infantry cooperation to use fire from the main gun to create a mousehole into a building.
In the Marine Corps we're tending to move away from the 4-man stack as the primary means of entry into a building. Recent combat operations in Iraq (namely Falluja and Ramadi) have shown that approximately 50% of friendly casualties were inflicted to troops bunching up in stacks outside of buildings.
The insurgent forces were specifically targeting doorways into buildings as they'd become accustomed to the US SOP of stacking troops outside. From overwatch positions they would hit these stacks with a mixture of AK, HMG and RPG fire to inflict multiple casualties. From inside the buildings it was common to find HMGs set up that were used to shoot through exterior walls as an entry team came into the building.
What has resulted from this 'lesson-learned' process is that we're now moving to a 2-man stack operation when entering buildings. 2 men will stack to gain a foothold and the remainder of the force will bump 2 men at a time into the building, similar to the danger area crossing drill. Also, whenever possible we're now breaching the exterior walls to create our own entryway inside the building, either through the use of man-portable shape charges, or tank-infantry cooperation to use fire from the main gun to create a mousehole into a building.
McG
Army.ca Legend
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The best way into a building has always been through a wall. Depending on the nature of interior walls, making your own doors can also be a good way to move once inside a building. It is an excellent role for sappers, and one of the reasons that I do not support views that light forces can get away with significantly fewer engineers.
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Now of course, this "hard entry" method is used in combat operations phase rather than peacekeeping/security and stability operations phase, where it's may be better to do a "soft knock" approach rather than blast your way through the side of somebody's house... ;D
I completely agree with you MCG. The loss of the pioneer platoons in the infantry battalions is a serious kick in the nuts for the CFs. While I have never served in a CF infantry unit, I can only imagine the benefit that a 'cadre' of dedicated pioneers would have in terms of training the members of rifle companies basic demolitions and helping them to put together breaching kits.
I completely agree with you MCG. The loss of the pioneer platoons in the infantry battalions is a serious kick in the nuts for the CFs. While I have never served in a CF infantry unit, I can only imagine the benefit that a 'cadre' of dedicated pioneers would have in terms of training the members of rifle companies basic demolitions and helping them to put together breaching kits.
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Interesting what the USMC thought about explosives and the city fight in Fallujah:
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The following is a list of explosives, a description, and their uses:
"Eight Ball" - 1/8 stick of C-4 - Used for breaching both interior and exterior doors, effective and doesn't use a lot of C-4
"House Guest" (Named by 2nd squad, 1st platoon, I Company) - Propane tanks placed in the central hallway with C-4 used to ignite it, creates a fuel air explosive - Used for bringing down a house when contact is made inside, propane tanks must be full
A 60 or 81 mm white phosphorous mortar round, wrapped three times with detonation cord and a 1/4 or 1/2 stick of C-4 - Used when contact is made in a house and the enemy must be burned out
Molotov cocktails - one part liquid laundry detergent, two parts gas - Used when contact is made in a house and the enemy must be burned out
All Marines should be familiar with explosives and proper placement of the charge for breaching. Any Marine should be able to cut time fuse, crimp a blasting cap, and put the blasting cap in C-4.
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The following is a list of explosives, a description, and their uses:
"Eight Ball" - 1/8 stick of C-4 - Used for breaching both interior and exterior doors, effective and doesn't use a lot of C-4
"House Guest" (Named by 2nd squad, 1st platoon, I Company) - Propane tanks placed in the central hallway with C-4 used to ignite it, creates a fuel air explosive - Used for bringing down a house when contact is made inside, propane tanks must be full
A 60 or 81 mm white phosphorous mortar round, wrapped three times with detonation cord and a 1/4 or 1/2 stick of C-4 - Used when contact is made in a house and the enemy must be burned out
Molotov cocktails - one part liquid laundry detergent, two parts gas - Used when contact is made in a house and the enemy must be burned out
All Marines should be familiar with explosives and proper placement of the charge for breaching. Any Marine should be able to cut time fuse, crimp a blasting cap, and put the blasting cap in C-4.
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Remember <a href=http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/25594.30.html>this thread?</a>
As I mentioned over there, most of the lessons learned that Matt mentioned were already apparent throughout the course of several brigade/combat team level OBUA excercises in the last few years. Even without any believable way of simulating breaching charges or HMG fire through buildings, we had found out, for example, that stacking was a bad bad idea. Of course, judging from the responses over at that thread, the experience filters through only gradually. Hopefully Matt's post will lend some more credibility to my claims.
As I mentioned over there, most of the lessons learned that Matt mentioned were already apparent throughout the course of several brigade/combat team level OBUA excercises in the last few years. Even without any believable way of simulating breaching charges or HMG fire through buildings, we had found out, for example, that stacking was a bad bad idea. Of course, judging from the responses over at that thread, the experience filters through only gradually. Hopefully Matt's post will lend some more credibility to my claims.
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I should also add that these excercises were done before 9/11 and the current Iraq War, 2000-2001. Perhaps the USMC could have benefitted from some of the experience gained?
