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Should the CF retain MBTs?

... and fuel it. ... and repair it.

They are an expensive technology that must be justified operationally. The justification requires certain assumptions or conclusions as to our role. If the role doesn‘t call for tanks, expect to see them disappear.

I love ‘em, but I can see a day when the government decides an all-wheeled force is preferable. Then we can expect to see LAV III with a gun and/or missile system as the direct fire support weapon.
 
If I can offer a "non-expert" opinion on this matter! With the tight-fisted liberals holding the purse strings, realistically it will take a change in govt, and a change in the upper echelons of DND, before the issue of MBTs becomes a focus. Its true that to hold ground, nothing beats a tank(look especially at the Isreali military on the news!) but wouldn‘t a LAV III with a modular weapon turret system(25mm, TOW,mortar, 105 etc..) be abit more versatile? To "tailor" a LAVIII with a flexible weapon system, based on mission req‘mts, would make the LAVIII more adaptable, to changing situations. Just my $0.02
 
Is the discussion here on MBTs in general or armoured capabilities as a whole. There certainly wont be a demise in armoured as a whole. Thats basically saying you can get rid of certain anti armour weapons as well dispite the fact they are still effective against different kinds of targets. Currently are govt is expanding on ways to become more versatile and the LAV III Chassis is really good at it. It apparently has updated armour, electronics, and the ability to mount an array of weapons systems. When I read discussions about the demise of the tank the actual message becomes unclear. Are we talking about MBTs, the conversion to track or wheel or what ? My limited opinion when it comes to MBTs is that I just dont see our govt proving new tanks. Although they are really really suited to holding ground and providing vicious direct fire in hostile area, sadly the prove very ineffective within the scope of our current ops. What I am trying to say that "Main Battle tanks" are really not effective for the peacekeeping ops we find ourselves involved in. The israelis dont have to worry about driving tanks into the west bank because they are there for totally different reason compared to our current situations in Europe. MBTs can be used to great effect in Afghansistan (like the Gulf) but coyotes were selected for their recon capabilities.

As for the debate between Lavs and tanks, I find that most armoured types are oppose to them because they essentially arent tanks at all but armoured cars with light weapons (25mm coaxial compared to 120mm and 105mm). Also having wheeled LAVs on the streets of KOSOVO brings on a lot less attention than a tank. On the other hand the M113 chassis has proven very versatile (in cbt support role)and is tracked but lacks armour and has limited direct fire . So really nothing beats an MBT in terms of direct fire and armour, but sadly in our current state our leaders dont believe we need vicious direct fire and armour. I believe that the biggest threat our armoured forces face is transport. We could barely transport troops, how the **** are we gonna move tanks ! Im all for MBTs on the battlefield, I just dont any improvments and upgrades occuring.

PS Just a thought, never stand beside a tank with reactive armour ! :evil:
 
Sadly, I have to agree with you Fus. I can‘t see our Government pumping more money into our
MBT‘s. Yes they just did the "C2" upgrade, but the gun on the Leo is a more seriously needed
upgrade. With all the upgrades needed, it‘s probably cheaper to invest in the Leo 2. But like you
said, the tank is not appropriate for Canada‘s role, Peacekeeping. A tank doesn‘t really say
Peacekeeper does it? A little to menacing. Well, I‘m kinda going back on what I said at the
beginning of this thread, but Fus made a really good point.
The LAV chases is versatile and cheap(er). Maybe the tanks can be saved for the defensive roll
only in the future.
And besides, with all the modern weapons systems out there, it doesn‘t really matter if you are sitting in a tank or a in a Ugo! :rocket:
 
Heres what the Yanks are planning for their versoin of the LAV. Comments ?

http://www.army.mil/features/stryker/stryker_spec.pdf
 
That mobile gun system is the one I‘ve heard rumours about for Canada. Not sure if the LAV would be appropriate for Recce due to it‘s size, well, for mud recce or whatever you want to call it anyway.
The mobile gun system is a 105mm (I beleive). Most modern MBT‘s are 120mm and I‘ve heard some countries are looking at 140mm! Why mount such a weapon on a hull like a LAV? Should a LAV be in the area of enemy MBT‘s with it‘s armour? I wouldn‘t want to be! I would also like to know how these vehicles are stabalized. I know a Cougar shooting off the side deck will possably tip the whole boat, and thats only a 76mm!
A little off topic --> Could these resurrect the Mech. Infantry? (Correct me if I‘m wrong, but I beleive Canada only has light infantry now?)
 
I‘m shocked that you think that Canada has only light infantry. Out of 9 regular force infantry battalions, only 3 are light. There was talk about makeing these 3 battalions into LAV battalions but since the Americans jumped into Afghanistan I think they‘ve deceided to rethink their views.
 
Ouch! Sorry Doug, I didn‘t intend to step on anyone‘s toes. I‘m an Armoured (Recce) guy, what do I know about Infantry!?!
Have the LAV III‘s been assigned to any units yet? I‘ve seen a couple over the years, sitting sadly in a compound somewere.
Would love to replace our "never to be fixed" LSVW CP with one of those bad boys! Yeah right, mabye when we get our Coyotes! (sarcasm) :crybaby:
 
Well
Heres the news, 1. all Inf Btl will be LAV Btls.
2. The Res will get Coyote/ Lav training, a waste due we have Regs not even qualified.
3. The Americans did not jump into Afganistan.
4. The LIBs will be full mech Btls.
5. As for tanks its unknown if a
replacement is coming. The Leos are going to 2010.

Sgt J. CD,CDS com Airborne, Bold and Swift
 
Also a cougar can fire over the side also in the water over the front, I know we fired one in Petawawa in 84 during a beach assault Ex. And a Leo is the best tank for peacekeeping in Bosnia, Kosovo it was the only tank to deploy to small towns. The Brit/US tanks sat.
Sgt J CD,CDS com
 
You can fire a cougar over the side and fire it in the water. We fired it in the 8CH in Petawawa in 84.
 
The US Army Rangers did parachute into Afghanistan, I guess you wern‘t paying attention.
The LIB‘s are not going mech at this time, go figure, light infanty is an ESSENTIAL part of any army, maybe the government has finaly figured that out.
Tanks are a day away from being obsolete.
 
Not as a large unit they did‘t. The LIBs are schualed to get the LavIII, in mean not tomorrow but in the near future. The Med tank will never go away. I‘ve been in the Regs for 22 yrs and seen changes from the Cougar would never be deported to we never get rid of the CAR to we‘re having a RECCE Armour Regt, of 4 Sqn of Lynxs and Coyotes. So never say obsolete, the role may change, Heavy tanks, can‘t go where light to Med tanks can. in Bosnia and Kosovo ours went everywhere, compared to the Brit Challangers and US M1s.
Sgt J. CD,CDS com Airborne, Bold and Swift
 
So, if the Heavy tank is going the way of the dodo, are we admitting that war as we have seen it in the early part of the last century is also going that way?

Small, low-intensity conflicts from here on in? Thus no use for big MBT‘s?
 
Is the MBT going the way of the dodo? I doubt it.

While high-intensity conflict may not be our focus in the future (it‘s bloody expensive to equip for, so we‘ll situate the estimate and eliminate it as a concern), the Americans and the Brits won‘t lose their focus as easily. They also won‘t forget that you can‘t knit tanks overnight.

Even in lower-intensity conflicts, if you want to drive the infantry onto the objective, they will need mobile dir fire sp with characteristics similiar to the MBT - excellent protection,high speed, and significant firepower. The LAV III probably can‘t carry the additional armour and the 120 gun and still maintain its mobility.

Until the infantry has its own direct fire sp in the form of a weapon which can kill tanks as effectively as a tank, armd sp will be reqr. At present, the best weapon for killing a tank is a kinetic energy weapon - i.e., a sabot. That kind of energy requires a big gun. A big gun draws lots of en attention - so you need mobility and protection. Ergo, a tank, not a recoil-less rifle.

The MBT is the strongest player on the battlefield, particularly in the modern configuration which balances protection, firepower and mobility. It is the ideal weapon for killing infantrymen before they dismount their AFVs. It is also the best weapon with which to kill other tanks -- particularly if you are on the offensive. (A TD may be fine in the defensive, but it is pretty useless on the move.)

The M1 will be around a long time. We just won‘t be driving it.

What could replace it? How about a ten (or even twelve) -wheeled LAV variant with additional armour, a more powerful engine, and a 120 gun with some form of active suspension for gun platform stability? There are obvious trade-offs, and it may not be much cheaper in the long run. But it may be a more acceptable alternative than either adopting M1s or foregoing dir fire sp.
 
This might sound odd, but taking into consideration the capabilities of a tank, the limitations of a LAVIII, compared to that of a tank, does anyone see these issues being addressed in...say perhaps in a possible "LAV IV" variant.Does anyone see the possibility/practicality of a LAV, w/ redesigned armour,chassis, suspension etc.. being able to house a 105--120mm, without difficulty?
 
No offense but I think thats like trying to reinvent the wheel. The current LAV chassis is already showing a great deal of versatility. No noubt improvments can and will be made but not without huge cost expendtures (eg the V22 osprey or F22) Some of the newer and more ambitious tank designs Ive read over the last few months are trying to incorporate the following:

air mobile/ para capable (airborne armour regt, cool !)
a new fancier type of main armanment
stealth
new armour (reactive etc)
missle defense
improved fire controls, GPS and other C&C electronics
auto loaders
 
http://www.mowag.ch/Images/Wehrtechnik/Piranha/Category1/Version8x8/8x8%20I_6_gross.jpg

Take a look at this brute! It can be done I think. I havn‘t come across any information about this bad boy yet, but it appears that this unit has no greater armour than you run of the mill LAV III.

I beleive South Africa uses a similar machine with a 105. In my oppinion, the possability exists, but the vehicle may end up with a higher profile than that of a tank. Not very tactacle.
 
At the very least, we should have up-gunned to 120 mm as part of the Leo C2 upgrade. The option is available from the manufacturer.

http://www.kmweg.de/english/kampf/kampf2_body_fs.html

Sharpey, that first generation LAV you‘ve linked to is nice and the option seems to still be available on the LAV III:

10x10-III_04.jpg


rceme_rat, you‘ve probably noticed that this vehicle fits the hypothetical 10x10 description that you suggested.

A lot of the arguments here are a rehash of those posted to the question : " should Canada adopt the LAV III as its sole armoured vehicle? "

:cool: Yard Ape
 
Originally posted by BillP:
[qb] ...say perhaps in a possible "LAV IV" variant?[/qb]
Here it is, first released Sept 11- 14 at GM, a LAV IV:

8x8-IV_07.jpg


Originally posted by BillP:
[qb] Does anyone see the possibility/practicality of a LAV, w/ redesigned armour,chassis, suspension etc.. being able to house a 105--120mm, without difficulty?[/qb]
Here it is with a 105 mm:
iav.jpg
 
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