Should Canada adopt the LAV III (AKA: Stryker) as its primary armoured vehicle family?

[George Wallace]

The powertrain for Coyote and Bison are not common to LAV III, Canada is one of the richest nation's in the world 2% GNP would buy the CAF everthing it needs.

I am having problems with your above 'sentence(?)'.  What is it you are trying to say?  You have three ideas, possibly three paragraphs, all tied up in one line.  It is a rather disjointed and confusing statement. 

Yes, the Coyote, Bison and LAV III are all different.  All three require separate D&M Courses due to those differences.

Yes, Canada is one of the richest nations in the world.  (Not possessive.)  Yes, 2% of the GNP would buy the C(A)F a lot.
 

Didn't the Coyote have problems climbing hills in Balkans due to being underpowered. Transfering to reserve would see the vehicle used in fire support, while recce fit is transfered to new buikd LAV111.

I don't know where you heard these rumours, and really would like you to provide some back-up to that statement.  As for transferring to the Coyotes to the Reserves, I think that has been covered numerous times as to why they will not be.  Captain (Army) Scarlet just reiterated those points.

 

[Mortar guy]

Coyotes underpowered? I remember whipping along HAWK route in Kosovo in my up-armoured AVGP at 90 km/hr and being passed by some yahoo from Recce Sqn in their Coyote. If that's underpowered I suppose the next step would be to strap JATO rockets on our Coyote fleet.   :

Reference lane. Will be known as yours. STAY IN IT.

MG

 

[vonGarvin]

Coyotes underpowered? I remember whipping along HAWK route in Kosovo in my up-armoured AVGP at 90 km/hr and being passed by some yahoo from Recce Sqn in their Coyote. If that's underpowered I suppose the next step would be to strap JATO rockets on our Coyote fleet.   :

Refernce lane. Will be known as yours. STAY IN IT.

MG

reference "dictionary" use it, NOT the "dickshunairee"

(just kidding, but I couldn't resist)

But I do like the JATO rockets on the Coyotes! 

 

[geo]

Ringo - what is your background?
Do you have any experience on the subject you are debating?

(Just asking)

 

[Eland]

The BISON was purchased in the early 1990s for use by the PRes.  Due to operational requirements, it was "acquired" by the regular army (or re-allocated to them).  Since then, it has become a work horse.  It has served as an ambulance, a command post, mortar carrier and I don't know what else.  Heck, I just saw one the other day with a dozer blade on it.

No doubt, it has proved to be an amazingly versatile platform - sometimes simple things are the best.

<snip>

There is a vast training bill to be qualified to work on a Coyote, too great to sustain for a reserve unit due to a variety of reasons.  The bison could be used at the reserve level quite easily, but there are only so many of them, and they have proven their worth time and time again.

Considering how cheap the Bisons are, we ought to be buying them by the bazillion for reserve infantry units, with engineer, signals, CP and field ambulance variants for the support units. They're so capable and versatile that they could even be a replacement for the LSVW. They would come in very handy in natural disasters or other aid-to-the-civil power situations. With all these capabilities, I could never quite understand why more weren't acquired for the reserves. It's a shame they ended up being cannibalized for Reg Force service. Then again, RF cannibalization of reserve assets is nothing new and isn't likely to end anytime soon unless Harper gets  a majority in the next election and is prepared to really put the pedal to the metal on military procurement.

As for the training bill on the Coyote being beyond PRes capacity, you're right. It's why I would favour giving PRes armoured units
a basic version of the Coyote - minus all of its sensors. This way the PRes would get a competent recce vehicle - enough to give them skills which would be transferable if they end up becoming Reg Force augmentees and need full-blown Coyote training.

 

[geo]

for light recce roles, the Coyote is big (even if smaller than the LAV or the bison)

For the Reserve Recce units to train and hone their skills, a small solid piece of kit that will allow troops to use their eyes and ears is essential.  How are troops supposed to "sneak and peek" in a behemoth?  A piece of kit like the Gwagon or (yes) even the Iltis will permit the troops to train and develop skills that can be ported to other vehicles at some later date.

 

[George Wallace]

Sorry Eland, but it is not cheaper to build a whole load of Bisons and Coyotes for the CF any more.  Those production lines are closed down and the expense of retooling would outweigh the practicality of building them. 

Even the stripped down Coyote version is too much for the Reserves to handle.  If they had trouble maintaining their wheeled fleets of Iltis, LSVW, MLVW and Milcots, how are they going to maintain any variant of Bison, Coyote or LAV?  Besides, there are currently not enough for the Regular Force, so there looks like that idea must wait until a time of conflict arises and the Reserves are mobilized.

 

[Desert Fox]

for light recce roles, the Coyote is big (even if smaller than the LAV or the bison)

For the Reserve Recce units to train and hone their skills, a small solid piece of kit that will allow troops to use their eyes and ears is essential.  How are troops supposed to "sneak and peek" in a behemoth?  A piece of kit like the Gwagon or (yes) even the Iltis will permit the troops to train and develop skills that can be ported to other vehicles at some later date.

You have to remember that "recce" is not always "sneak and peak". Recce is the gathering of intel, covert and non covert... while i was over on Op Athena, the RCD would often set up OP's off in the moutains and monitor movement and activity.  Frankly no vehicle is great for "sneak" and peak" ops as they tend to be easier to see instead you utilize the optics and other survelience equipment from positions of cover, far, far, away from the actauly objective.

 

[George Wallace]

You have to remember that "recce" is not always "sneak and peak". Recce is the gathering of intel, covert and non covert... while i was over on Op Athena, the RCD would often set up OP's off in the moutains and monitor movement and activity.  Frankly no vehicle is great for "sneak" and peak" ops as they tend to be easier to see instead you utilize the optics and other survelience equipment from positions of cover, far, far, away from the actauly objective.

You are describing a "Surveillance" vehicle, not a Recce Vehicle.  And the RCD, nor anyone in the CF, do not collect "intel".

 

[Desert Fox]

You are describing a "Surveillance" vehicle, not a Recce Vehicle.  And the RCD, nor anyone in the CF, do not collect "intel".

Well that is what the Coyote and the RCD's were used for extensively....call it what u like....
and by intel i was refering to the process of gaining information, which is what "recce" is...
and i do believe that HUM INT / FST teams do in fact collect "intel" as you seem to be precieving it....

 

[George Wallace]

INTEL is not what anyone in the CF calls it be it COMINT, ELINT, EW, HUMINT, IMINT, INT, MASINT, OSINT, RECCE, SIGINT, SURVEILLANCE, TECHINT, TELINT or any other form of INT; anything but INTEL.

As for being seen, you haven't been around too much have you?  This is my vehicle:

 

[George Wallace]

Later in the day......

 

[Desert Fox]

INTEL is not what anyone in the CF calls it be it COMINT, ELINT, EW, HUMINT, IMINT, INT, MASINT, OSINT, RECCE, SIGINT, SURVEILLANCE, TECHINT, TELINT or any other form of INT; anything but INTEL.

As for being seen, you haven't been around too much have you?  This is my vehicle:

I'm not going to argue over semantics... replace my usage of "intel" with "information" ... I hope that is now satisfactory for you?

As for you picture and the comment of me not being around much...  All I will say on this point is that i can post pictures too, however, in mine I am wearing arid CADPAT, and the pic wasnt taken in some training area.....

 

[ringo]

Geo I'm a heavy equipment operator 40 years bulldozers backhoes tractors trucks cranes etc, at one time I owned 15 powerunits, started with nothing. Managed 4 African safari's to date.

I remember reading sometime ago that the Coyote had trouble on some of the steeper grades in Balkans.

Regarding the original question should Canada adopt LAV 111 as its primary wheeled vehicle, I would agree with that statement and would standardize regular forces on LAV 111.
However IMO the 105mm gun is to much for chassis and ammo supply inadequate.
The MMEV? is another pie in the sky idea asking to much from single system the ADATS was good enough.
Canada should keep MBT's SPH's and tracked APC's.

 

[Mortar guy]

Regarding the original question should Canada adopt LAV 111 as its primary wheeled vehicle, I would agree with that statement and would standardize regular forces on LAV 111.
However IMO the 105mm gun is to much for chassis and ammo supply inadequate.
The MMEV? is another pie in the sky idea asking to much from single system the ADATS was good enough.
Canada should keep MBT's SPH's and tracked APC's.

Just a nit-picky point here - it's the LAV III (roman numerals for 'three') not the LAV 'one hundred and eleven'.

We got rid of the SPHs and will have a very limited fleet of MBTs and TLAVs. Could you tell us why you think Canada should keep those things? It's not that I disagree it's just you've left us with a bit of a cliffhanger there. Unless, of course, you think we should go to the PM and say: "Ringo thinks we need a tracked fleet" to which the PM will instantly agree and make it happen! 

MG

 

[vonGarvin]

we should go to the PM and say: "Ringo thinks we need a tracked fleet" to which the PM will instantly agree and make it happen! 

So THAT'S how policy is made.  ;D

I need a new hobby 

 

[geo]

Don't know of any problems with Coyotes going up steep grades in the Balkans.  A couple of issues with the older AVGPs (Cougar/Grizzly) but Coyotes did just fine.  Where the Coyotes were deployed within Multinational Brigades, they were "gee whizz" assets that were on every Commanders XMass shopping list.

At present, the idea of using a 105 on a LAV / Stryker chassis (and ADATS) has been shelved by Canada - though the US Army has taken delivery of some.  Time will tell how well they do in the Stryker brigades.  From what I have read, they were thinking of embedding a MGS within every Stryker platoon.....

 

[vonGarvin]

For what it's worth, the Stryker Brigade Combat Teams were NOT intended to replace heavy units.  In fact, it was a new class of unit: "Medium".  Light units were, for the most part, upgraded to Stryker.  There was one mech/heavy brigade that downsized, but I believe that the unit in question was to become light.
The ORBAT for a Stryker Company had three MGS, manned by infantrymen, i believe.
Canada had intended for the MGS to be used as a pseudo-tank.

 

[Mortar guy]

MGS in the US Army will be manned by tankers.

 

[Desert Fox]

Captain Scarlet - i think you hit it dead on, thats the problem with the MGS, Canada has the intent of using it to replace the MBT. Where as our American friends use it with the MBT., rather then in lieu of....

And that is where we run into some murky waters as we will stand to lose another capability...

If the MGS (Stryker) had its bugs worked out, and it was proven to be stable (ie not overly top heavy) then i would fully endorse it. The LAVIII has proven itself in A-stan.... The MGS would give us a new capability... a desent balance between an MBT and a LAVIII.... the relative ease with which the MGS can be air transported is an attractive feature, however, it is not and can not and should not replace the MBT... As we see right now, the MBT is being used in A-stan... its not cause we have been out gunned by the Taliban/OMF/Al Qaeda/pick your devil.... its the fact that this bunch of fanatics is a brave bunch and frankly, 40 tons of track is a damn good show of force (i am aware that they have increasinly been conducting a standing fight at Coy level and the MBT is useful there as well)....    For these reasons we must maintain the MBT, and include the MGS (if and when it is perfected) to develop the army into a highly mobile fighting force, that this has the hardware to call on should we need to slug it out!

Lastly, if it is adopted, it better be manned by TANGO call signs.... Theres a lack of infantry as is!