Michael Dorosh
Army.ca Veteran
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I realize this may be a contentious issue, but my purpose is not to rile anyone up.
I am having a discussion on another board with a fellow who is convinced that shooting prisoners of war was commonplace in the Canadian Army in the Second World War, and so commonplace that divisional commanders were aware of the practice and condoned it.
I find it a little shocking that anyone could be let to believe this, but one can't combat sweeping generalizations with the same, so I am trying to look at what evidence we have.
Buddy has quoted Barry Broadfoot, a social historian, who published interviews of veterans done many years after the fact. I haven't read the appropriate chapters yet so can't comment.
I know of the following sources as far as "war crimes" and if anyone can help out with some more, I would appreciate it. The goal is to determine how widely prisoners were killed in Canadian hands.
Incidentally, the official historian, C.P. Stacey, writes in his autobiography that he was only aware of one single Canadian war crime, and it involved no deaths. The Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders of Canada rousted German civilians out of the village of Friesoythe in Apr 1945 when it was believed their beloved CO had been shot dead by a civilian - the Argylls then burned several houses down as a reprisal. It was illegal, but no one was - AFAIK - prosecuted for the crime.
Other references:
* Gwilym Jones, a TRR trooper in Italy noted in his book THE GREEN FIELDS BEYOND that he witnessed a sergeant of the Van Doos marching prisoners off, then returning a short time later with Tommy Gun slung, chuckling that they had 'tried to escape'. I consider this anecdotal evidence.
* Max Hastings (and later, the Valour and the Horror) quote a British seaman on Juno Beach who wanted a "tin hat" from some German prisoners he saw marched behind a dune, allegedly by Canadian troops. His account noted that when he came around the dune, the men were lying dead, with throats cut ear to ear, and he "turned away, sick as a parrot. I never got my tin hat."
* Jacques Dextraze, in the film Valour and the Horror, talks about running prisoners down to a river where many drowned after being forced to ford it. Anecdotal?
* Ross Munro quoted a Royal Winnipeg Rifles corporal after news of the 12th SS murders spread through 3 Cdn Div in Normandy, who said "any SS man we meet, we just give him the business now." Anecdotal - no name given.
I think there is a difference between killing a man in the heat of battle - even if he has his hands up - and deliberate shootings. The 12th SS murders of Canadians involved both types of circumstances - some were deliberately killed well after surrender, others in the act of surrender (technically still a war crime). Still, the 12th SS were inculcated in the idea that the war was one of ideology, and the Russian Front cadre of the division infused that formation with the no-quarter mentality that reigned on the Eastern Front, where surrender usually meant death for SS troops. After the first few days of the Normandy campaign, the 12th SS eased off on the illegal killings, as it became clear (according to a postwar divisional historian) that things were beginning to go badly for them.
The argument my colleague puts forward is that if Canadian killings were systemic (which he argues was the case), there would be no written record. It bothers me that he is then free to besmirch the record of Canadian troops without apparently having to prove it.
So what is the truth? Were Jones' recollections just wild talk to sell books or impress people down at the Legion? Were killings like Jones saw occasional occurences that were not condoned (something I consider most likely) ? Did Canadian battalion, brigade and division commanders give unwritten orders to exterminate prisoners on a regular basis and/or turn a blind eye to illegal killings?
Given the importance placed on prisoners for intelligence purposes, I find the latter hard to swallow, never mind the moral and professional implications.
Can anyone point me to any books or articles on this phenomenon? Or other recorded instances of such killings?
Then there is the case of civilian crimes - like the US troops who opened fire at that culvert early in the Korean War. I suspect Canadians are legitimately free and clear in this regard, but stand to be enlightened. Graves reported in the SAR history that one single case of rape in Holland received an inordinate amount of attention (inlcuding a ceremonial drumming out of two troopers by the RSM in full view of the Regiment, slicing regimental insignia off their battle dress with a razor blade) even though the case was not open and shut (the men claimed the sex was consensual until the woman's husband arrived home). Find it hard to believe that Canadians would have had cause to kill civilians in France - Italy would have been another story but have never read of anything occurring there, either. I guess the only documented case we have in the 20th Century is Somalia, which was an isolated incident despite the media's attention paid to other elements of the CAR which are probably best left not discussed here in any event.
Anyone else done any research into this or know where I could go for more info? I'd as soon not battle buddy's innuendo with more of my own.
I am having a discussion on another board with a fellow who is convinced that shooting prisoners of war was commonplace in the Canadian Army in the Second World War, and so commonplace that divisional commanders were aware of the practice and condoned it.
I find it a little shocking that anyone could be let to believe this, but one can't combat sweeping generalizations with the same, so I am trying to look at what evidence we have.
Buddy has quoted Barry Broadfoot, a social historian, who published interviews of veterans done many years after the fact. I haven't read the appropriate chapters yet so can't comment.
I know of the following sources as far as "war crimes" and if anyone can help out with some more, I would appreciate it. The goal is to determine how widely prisoners were killed in Canadian hands.
Incidentally, the official historian, C.P. Stacey, writes in his autobiography that he was only aware of one single Canadian war crime, and it involved no deaths. The Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders of Canada rousted German civilians out of the village of Friesoythe in Apr 1945 when it was believed their beloved CO had been shot dead by a civilian - the Argylls then burned several houses down as a reprisal. It was illegal, but no one was - AFAIK - prosecuted for the crime.
Other references:
* Gwilym Jones, a TRR trooper in Italy noted in his book THE GREEN FIELDS BEYOND that he witnessed a sergeant of the Van Doos marching prisoners off, then returning a short time later with Tommy Gun slung, chuckling that they had 'tried to escape'. I consider this anecdotal evidence.
* Max Hastings (and later, the Valour and the Horror) quote a British seaman on Juno Beach who wanted a "tin hat" from some German prisoners he saw marched behind a dune, allegedly by Canadian troops. His account noted that when he came around the dune, the men were lying dead, with throats cut ear to ear, and he "turned away, sick as a parrot. I never got my tin hat."
* Jacques Dextraze, in the film Valour and the Horror, talks about running prisoners down to a river where many drowned after being forced to ford it. Anecdotal?
* Ross Munro quoted a Royal Winnipeg Rifles corporal after news of the 12th SS murders spread through 3 Cdn Div in Normandy, who said "any SS man we meet, we just give him the business now." Anecdotal - no name given.
I think there is a difference between killing a man in the heat of battle - even if he has his hands up - and deliberate shootings. The 12th SS murders of Canadians involved both types of circumstances - some were deliberately killed well after surrender, others in the act of surrender (technically still a war crime). Still, the 12th SS were inculcated in the idea that the war was one of ideology, and the Russian Front cadre of the division infused that formation with the no-quarter mentality that reigned on the Eastern Front, where surrender usually meant death for SS troops. After the first few days of the Normandy campaign, the 12th SS eased off on the illegal killings, as it became clear (according to a postwar divisional historian) that things were beginning to go badly for them.
The argument my colleague puts forward is that if Canadian killings were systemic (which he argues was the case), there would be no written record. It bothers me that he is then free to besmirch the record of Canadian troops without apparently having to prove it.
So what is the truth? Were Jones' recollections just wild talk to sell books or impress people down at the Legion? Were killings like Jones saw occasional occurences that were not condoned (something I consider most likely) ? Did Canadian battalion, brigade and division commanders give unwritten orders to exterminate prisoners on a regular basis and/or turn a blind eye to illegal killings?
Given the importance placed on prisoners for intelligence purposes, I find the latter hard to swallow, never mind the moral and professional implications.
Can anyone point me to any books or articles on this phenomenon? Or other recorded instances of such killings?
Then there is the case of civilian crimes - like the US troops who opened fire at that culvert early in the Korean War. I suspect Canadians are legitimately free and clear in this regard, but stand to be enlightened. Graves reported in the SAR history that one single case of rape in Holland received an inordinate amount of attention (inlcuding a ceremonial drumming out of two troopers by the RSM in full view of the Regiment, slicing regimental insignia off their battle dress with a razor blade) even though the case was not open and shut (the men claimed the sex was consensual until the woman's husband arrived home). Find it hard to believe that Canadians would have had cause to kill civilians in France - Italy would have been another story but have never read of anything occurring there, either. I guess the only documented case we have in the 20th Century is Somalia, which was an isolated incident despite the media's attention paid to other elements of the CAR which are probably best left not discussed here in any event.
Anyone else done any research into this or know where I could go for more info? I'd as soon not battle buddy's innuendo with more of my own.
The truth is, without the comfort of sitting behind your computer and 60+ years of hindsight, you MIGHT have acted exactly like Genetk44 stated. I know I probably would!
