Shooting in Carcassonne: 17 wounded when french soldier fires on crowd.

[wannabe SF member]

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23945207-26040,00.html

Apparently, someone someone swapped blanks with live rounds.

 

[TrexLink]

Wonder if the Bastille is still open?

 

[Danjanou]

Wonder if the Bastille is still open?

Not funny.

Some more info
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7480483.stm

 

[Sigger]

2 Soldiers and 15 civvies hit?

You would think a Sgt. Paratrooper would know to inspect his rounds/mag.  Jeez.

 

[Danjanou]

2 Soldiers and 15 civvies hit?

You would think a Sgt. Paratrooper would know to inspect his rounds/mag.  Jeez.

My thoughts exactly. I was also wondering does the FAMAS use a BFA?

 

[Bob Terwilliger]

His magazines would have been loaded prior to the event. Perhaps someone with a beef swapped his magazine with one with ball rounds. It would be easy to hide, just top off the mag with 2 blank rounds, he would not have noticed.

 

[George Wallace]

My thoughts exactly. I was also wondering does the FAMAS use a BFA?

I would imagine so.  In that case there should be damage to the wpn.  If there was no damage to the wpn, then I would be highly suspicious.

 

[Danjanou]

It would be easy to hide, just top off the mag with 2 blank rounds, he would not have noticed.

You'd think he would have noticed the recoil though as well as the fact the people he was "shooting" at were being hit and the blood sprays etc.

 

[Bob Terwilliger]

You would think so. So that leaves the other possibility open, that it was intentional.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Rather than speculate on someone's training and mental state, an equipment failure or a conspiracy theory, I'll content myself with knowing that there were no deaths and everyone injured appears to be recovering. I'll leave the conjecture and questioning to the French authorities.

 

[Blackadder1916]

My thoughts exactly. I was also wondering does the FAMAS use a BFA?

Yes.  As can be seen on the weapons in the below photo.  However, while firing a live round with the BFA still on will "usually" result in severe damage to the weapon, it "may" simply result in the BFA being projected forward and the weapon continuing to function.  Once saw someone put a live round through a C1A1 with BFA that did that (and a couple of additional rounds after the BFA went down range).  The operator of the weapon should notice something is wrong (different) but depending on the circumstances it may not immediately register.

 

[Sigger]

Perhaps someone with a beef swapped his magazine with one with ball rounds.

Thats a big-ass beef.

 

[Rodahn]

Thats a big-*** beef.

It's been known to happen before.... Ask the thumperhead who had his bedspace blown up in the barracks in Chilliwack due to some suspected hankie panky in the eighties......

 

[Blackadder1916]

Some additional info about this incident from the International Herald Tribune.  Reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act.

Stunned France wonders how military exercise went wrong

By Katrin Bennhold Published: June 30, 2008

PARIS: It was supposed to be an open house to give the wives and children of the elite soldiers in the regiment a glimpse of their heroism in all those months of fighting far away from home.

On a sunny Sunday afternoon, young boys ate ice cream and looked on with pride as they watched their fathers perform mock hostage liberations and antiterrorist operations, sweating in their camouflage outfits and firing blanks from smoking machine guns as if it were for real.

And then it became tragically real.

During the last of six military show exercises at the Laperrine military barracks in southern France, one soldier used live ammunition and wounded 17 people, most of them members of families of the military staff, said Colonel Philippe Tanguy, a spokesman for the Defense Ministry.

Four of the victims, including a 3-year-old child, were hurt critically, though by Monday afternoon their lives appeared to be no longer in danger.

"It is incomprehensible how this could have happened," Tanguy said. "The question everyone is asking is: How could he have had real ammunition on him during an exercise?"

The shooter, a 28-year-old sergeant whose identity had not been disclosed, was arrested and was being questioned Monday. According to the state prosecutor in the regional capital of Montpellier, Brice Robin, the sergeant said he had loaded his assault rifle with a magazine of live cartridges by mistake.

"This act was absolutely not premeditated - I am very clear on this point," Robin said at a news conference Monday, citing as evidence a video of the exercise that had been filmed by a fellow soldier. Robin said he would ask that the sergeant be charged with involuntary bodily harm. If any victims die, the charge could turn into involuntary manslaughter

President Nicolas Sarkozy, who is also commander in chief, canceled his plans for the day and rushed to the site early Monday to meet with the wounded and their families.

"There were unacceptable instances of negligence," Sarkozy said upon his arrival in the southern city of Carcassonne before heading to one of the hospitals treating the victims. "They must be sanctioned. The reaction must be rapid and severe."

The sergeant, a member of the 3rd Marine Infantry Parachute Regiment for eight years, has a spotless record in a unit considered to be one of the country's best, army officials said.

He also has what the officials described as a "balanced private life" with no sign of psychological problems.

But on Sunday, mysteriously, one of the eight magazines in his military vest contained live cartridges rather than the blanks that were carried by the other 10 soldiers taking part in the exercise, Tanguy said. About 5.15 p.m., rather than firing single shots or salvos of three, he used a third option on his Famas assault rifle as is common for effect in such military show exercises: bullets spraying from the barrel until the ammunition is exhausted.

Witnesses told of surprise and then horror as fellow bystanders were hit amid the deafening shots.

"I realized that these were real bullets when I saw people falling to the ground around me," an unidentified man was quoted as saying by the newspaper Le Figaro on Monday.

At least four people were wounded by the gunfire, officials said.

The other victims were struck by bits of gravel propelled by bullets that hit the ground or were hurt in the ensuing panic and stampede of fleeing visitors. Two of the 17 victims were military personnel.

Generally, defense experts said, live cartridges and blanks are difficult to mix up. The former are green and weigh about 80 grams, or nearly three ounces, more than the metallic-colored blanks.

"If you hold one in each hand, you will not only see but also feel the difference," Tanguy said.

The problem, he said, was that once the cartridges are inside a magazine their color is visible only from the top end, and the magazines are put inside the ammunition pockets of a military vest head down to facilitate the loading of the gun.

Similarly, the weight difference is hard to discern when a soldier is fully equipped, particularly in action.

One possible explanation for the error Sunday, the army authorities said, was that the sergeant forgot to remove a magazine of live ammunition after a shooting exercise that he had taken part in a few days earlier. When he filled his vest with blanks before the exercise Sunday, he could have overlooked the magazine that was already in one pocket, they said.

A metal device that the sergeant had on his weapon for the exercise was designed to help explode blanks but slowed the real bullets and reduced their precision.

The 3rd Marine Infantry Parachute Regiment is among a small number of units specializing in being the first to intervene in times of crisis. It has taken part in many high-profile operations for France in recent decades, including actions in Lebanon in 1978, Chad in 1983 and Kosovo in 1999.

French Army chief resigns over shooting accident

By Katrin Bennhold Published: July 1, 2008

PARIS: The chief of staff of the French Army resigned Tuesday, two days after a soldier fired real bullets instead of blanks during a military show exercise and injured 17 people.

President Nicolas Sarkozy accepted the resignation of General Bruno Cuche and ordered the army to review its safety rules.

The defense minister, meanwhile, suspended the use of blank munitions at all military demonstrations and ordered "immediate punishment" for any army staff members responsible for the lack of oversight that led to the accident that took place at the Laperrine military barracks in southern France on Sunday.

The incident "reveals grave failings in the use of ammunition and the security of demonstrations," Defense Minister Hervé Morin said, urging that measures be taken before a report is issued in the judicial inquiry into the matter.

The soldier who fired the live ammunition, a 28-year-old sergeant in the 3rd Marine Infantry Parachute Regiment, confused a magazine containing real bullets with one containing blanks, according to the state prosecutor, Brice Robin, who ruled out a deliberate action. There appeared to have been no inspection of magazines carried by the 11 soldiers who performed a mock hostage liberation in front of their families and other members of the public Sunday.

The sergeant, whose identity had not been disclosed, was suspended from the army Tuesday and faced charges of involuntary bodily harm. Four people were injured critically, including a three-year-old child, though by Tuesday their conditions appeared to have stabilized. Many of the victims were relatives of staff members, the Defense Ministry said.

While the Sunday incident involving one of the top French Army units has brought broad outrage and incredulity, the government's swift response has also prompted angry reactions within the military, where many were already upset at Sarkozy's call to cut the number of military jobs by 54,000.

"This comes at a very bad moment," said a senior officer who declined to be identified for fear of repercussions.

Colonel Benoît Royal, a spokesman for the Defense Ministry, said. "There was an undeniable and grave individual error," he said. "Our procedures have been reliable and good in the past. The enquiry will show whether they were violated by anyone else."

Cuche, who had served as army chief since July 2006, reported to the head of the overall armed forces who in turn answers to Sarkozy, France's commander in chief.

Cuche's successor is expected to be named Wednesday.

 

[geo]

Hmph... guess that their rules and regulations are about to be rewritten....

 

[FastEddy]

His magazines would have been loaded prior to the event. Perhaps someone with a beef swapped his magazine with one with ball rounds. It would be easy to hide, just top off the mag with 2 blank rounds, he would not have noticed.

Not to appear cynical, but don't we tell our children "not to play with guns" and our adults "don't point a gun unless you intend to use it (or intend to shoot someone)". But to add realism in training, our Military do it every day.

With regard to this incident and investigation its already been established , Who, Where, What and By Who, the remaining question is  WHY ?. I wouldn't like to be investigating this one !.

As for the comments and speculation made here, the only constructive and valid one is by "Bob Tenwilliger".

Cheers.

 

[Duke_The_Patriot]

Wouldn’t the soldier have stopped firing after seeing the first five people hit? Why would he be pointing his weapon at civilians during an exercise? That’s French screw ups for ya.

 

[Sig_Des]

That’s French screw ups for ya.

Uh huh. And you know this because of your long and traveled career in the CF, possibly working alongside with the French Military in Lebanon or Afghanistan I imagine?

Maybe interesting to you:

http://www.thestar.com/World/Columnist/article/301987

I'd avoid generalizing if I were you, especially if you haven't seen them in action.

Would a grenade in a backyard be an example of a Canadian screw up for you?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Uh huh. And you know this because of your long and traveled career in the CF, possibly working alongside with the French Military in Lebanon or Afghanistan I imagine?

Maybe interesting to you:

http://www.thestar.com/World/Columnist/article/301987

I'd avoid generalizing if I were you, especially if you haven't seen them in action.

Would a grenade in a backyard be an example of a Canadian screw up for you?

Or using the wrong type of pole to push explosives through a tube. Lots of Canadian made mistakes have happened as well, this is truely sad and the flushing sound you hear is many careers going down the drain. Not to mention the post event tramu and healing for the injured.

 

[Duke_The_Patriot]

Uh huh. And you know this because of your long and traveled career in the CF, possibly working alongside with the French Military in Lebanon or Afghanistan I imagine?

Maybe interesting to you:

http://www.thestar.com/World/Columnist/article/301987

I'd avoid generalizing if I were you, especially if you haven't seen them in action.

Would a grenade in a backyard be an example of a Canadian screw up for you?

Actually having been to France many times to visit my Father, who lives Mutzig.  He has close friends of the 44e Régiment de Transmissions (44e RT) Electronic Warfare Regiment Recon brigade in Mutzig, which allowed me to partake in some of their exercises. I Have in fact, seen them do many mistakes in training. PM me if you want a list.