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Seamen busted

PuckChaser

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There's no reason to have so many PSP staff running classes. They should be there as advisors to create group and personal PT plans.
 

FSTO

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When I was in ALG during OP APOLLO we had PSP staff member with us until from Victoria until Penang Malaysia where we dropped them off. There were no civilian DND personal onboard while we were on patrol in the op area. There would be some available for specialist requirements during our routine stops in Jebel Ali.
WIN was coming home from a deployment, I have no idea when this person joined the ship but I would be greatly surprised if this person was part of the ships company during the entire deployment.
 
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jollyjacktar

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It all depends on the type of deployment I suppose.  We had a PSP staff member with us throughout the entire OP CARIBBE deployment, in and out of the box.
 

SeaKingTacco

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Before all of you jump to further conclusions and convict Jack Lawson in "the court of Army.ca", I would just like to say that there is a tonne more to this story then is being reported.

The police in Japan have broad powers of arrest- way beyond what is available to police in Canada.

He was released after questioning, not charged with anything and allowed to leave the country with his ship. The other two were not.

Draw what inference you wish, from that.

To suggest his father had anything to do with the situation is beyond ludicrous.

Grow up- all of you. Stop speculating on a situation you know nothing about and damaging the reputation of what I have come to recognize as a fine young officer, in the process.
 

NavalMoose

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No one has convicted Lawson in the court of army.ca, in fact most of the thread has been dedicated to asking why a civvy was part of the crew
 

SeaKingTacco

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Upthread there were some (what I believe) to be unfair comments directed at him?
 

NavalMoose

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Well it looks like the closest to unfair remarks is some speculation about questions being asked about the company he keeps, hardly a condemnation.
 

Furniture

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Jarnhamar said:
The Navy can't take an NCO and designate them a full time fitness coordinator?  Does a civilian bartender run the mess on the ship as well?

How would taking a NCO away from their actual unit and trade be better than taking someone we pay specifically to lead PT and build personalized fitness programmes?

If the RCN thought the risk of taking a civilian on the ship was too great there wouldn't have been one there... We had civilian contractors operating and maintaining the Scan Eagle UAV for my gulf deployment.
 

Jarnhamar

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WeatherdoG said:
How would taking a NCO away from their actual unit and trade be better than taking someone we pay specifically to lead PT and build personalized fitness programmes?

Because we take NCOs and other leaders away from their trade job and put them in all kinds of different jobs all the time. Officer in charge of the unit library. NCO in charge of categorizing and polishing trophies and medals. At the PRT in Afghanistan a good buddy of mine was a sgt in charge of making sure the transient quarters had fresh sheets- that's about it.

One of the mods on an up and coming NCOs PLQ is to lead a fitness session. As a whole we're trying to save money, why would we hire a civilian to do a job NCOs are supposed to do in the first place?

How many civilians does the Royal Canadian Navy have in it's employ compared to how many sailors there are?
 

Fishbone Jones

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Just a reminder to everyone.

Every person is assumed innocent until proven otherwise. No rumour, no speculation, no innuendo, now calls for crazy justice, etc. Keep the thread clean and factual. If you state something concerning the people involved with the incident, you had better post your 'bonafide' source along with it.

---Staff---
 

Eye In The Sky

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FWIW, Capt Lawson may have been questioned as a `witness`, not a suspect.  We all know the jingle about ASSUME...
 

Stoker

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Jarnhamar said:
Because we take NCOs and other leaders away from their trade job and put them in all kinds of different jobs all the time. Officer in charge of the unit library. NCO in charge of categorizing and polishing trophies and medals. At the PRT in Afghanistan a good buddy of mine was a sgt in charge of making sure the transient quarters had fresh sheets- that's about it.

One of the mods on an up and coming NCOs PLQ is to lead a fitness session. As a whole we're trying to save money, why would we hire a civilian to do a job NCOs are supposed to do in the first place?

How many civilians does the Royal Canadian Navy have in it's employ compared to how many sailors there are?

We have personnel who have the PSP course who can administer the FORCE test. The original intent was to qualify enough ships staff in order to run our own tests ashore as sometimes its problematic to arrange FORCE testing at last minute. Yes some units with the bunk space take PSP with them on lower risk deployments to improve and maintain the overall health of the sailors. We also take photo techs, PAO, Chaplains etc as well. All of which can be done as a secondary duty on a ship but just not to the same standard as a professional. As mentioned before we are sometimes secondary dutied to death and one of the reasons I suspect is why the ship took a PSP staff. As some as said on here that it should be led by our own leaders on board ship, good idea once they have the proper course to lead group PT as doing such on a unstable platform, on a watch system is not the same as doing it on a base and hence most likely why a professionally trained PSP staff was embarked.

I'm sure the military justice system will get to the bottom of this in short order and if guilty will be punished severely in due course as this sort of irresponsible actions cannot be tolerated. I find it interesting in the sense that this is actually a news story as this happens throughout the forces and often not worthy of a news story, most likely due their last names.
 

The Bread Guy

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Eye In The Sky said:
FWIW, Capt Lawson may have been questioned as a `witness`, not a suspect.  We all know the jingle about ASSUME...
Also, a good time for the reminder I should have posted earlier:

According to Canada's Charter of Rights and Freedoms, "Any person charged with an offence has the right .... to be presumed innocent until proven guilty according to law in a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal."
 

Jarnhamar

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Thanks ChiefStoker (and sorry if I came across as petulant WeatherdoG) .

I don't have a very high opinion of PSP or the empire they're carving out for themselves but that's off topic.

 

winnipegoo7

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milnews.ca said:
Also, a good time for the reminder I should have posted earlier:

According to Canada's Charter of Rights and Freedoms, "Any person charged with an offence has the right .... to be presumed innocent until proven guilty according to law in a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal."

That is true, but the two of these people were arrested in Japan. Japan's legal system seems to be very different than Canada's. A quick google search of "presumption of innocence" brings up many interesting sites and stories. For example:

This article claims that there are many false confessions,
Arrested suspects are often detained in a police “daiyo kangoku” substitute prison for up to 23 days before indictment, and release on bail is unlikely as long as they plead innocent or remain silent.
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2005/10/13/national/justice-system-flawed-by-presumed-guilt/

The economist claims that nearly all accused people in Japan sign a confession, whether guilty or not.
http://www.economist.com/node/8680941

This article was good too. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_justice_system_of_Japan

I'm not saying that the Japanese system is worse than ours, just very different.
 

mariomike

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winnipegoo7 said:
Japan's legal system seems to be very different than Canada's.

winnipegoo7 said:
The economist claims that nearly all accused people in Japan sign a confession, whether guilty or not.
http://www.economist.com/node/8680941

This caught my eye, "...its courts convict 99.9% of all the suspects brought before them."
 

winnipegoo7

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mariomike said:
This caught my eye, "...its courts convict 99.9% of all the suspects brought before them."

yes, mine too. We all know that statistics can be misleading. 

One explanation that wikipedia gives is
... possibility is that, given that the non-jury system under inquisition system has predictable ruling on guilt, Japan's understaffed prosecutors working on low budgets only bring the most obviously guilty defendants to trial, and do not file indictments in cases in which they are not certain they can win


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_justice_system_of_Japan
 
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jollyjacktar

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I will say, what is it about west coasters and foreign port visits making it into the press as of late....  they're killing us.
 
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