Safariland 6004 BHP, Holster Mod

[George Wallace]

Well said Glock17.  This was the training I received, but I acknowledge that others have trained differently, and personal preferences won't change, nor should they if the operators are confident and proficient.  To me the cocking while thrusting the weapon towards the enemy seems more comfortable.  I, however, have not had the experience of I6 or Big Red and am quite an amateur when compared to them.

 

[Good2Golf]

G17, fully agree! 

My understanding was always that TOETs provide for three states of the BHP: empty/proven, loaded and readied.  Readied is with safety on unless immediately prepared to fire.  Readied half-cocked or readied manually de-cocked simply aren't acceptable weapon states for the BHP. 

As I-6 will attest to, while I am dashingly good looking (I-6 once even used the term "devastatingly good looking"...I believe it was in a sort of a "guys having having a few brews together by the bonfire, and 'it's all good' kind of way"  8) , but I digress), I am still an AF guy who should be afforded only minimal mutual respect when it comes to personal weapons because I don't sleep with my BHP under my pillow.  I was more comfortable, as were all those around me I'm sure, to carry loaded, and then ready as required -- less risk not finding the safety as you alluded to, and definitely less risk in the clearing bay...well that, and I only had that piece of crap Bianchi tourniquette.

Cheers,
G2G

 

[KevinB]

G2G considering you've probably had more small arms training than 90% of the Army...

G17 under 50M I immediately transition. 
  The CF's pistol training ciriculum beyond CANSOF is abysmal -- but in all reality the long gun training is not far behind it, with gunfighter just starting to scratch the surface, or where one should be.



Two things need to be done to the BHP

1 - REMOVE THE MAG SAFETY, its unsafe and causes (as a chain of events) ND's.  The C7/8's dont have a mag safety - get rid of the one on the BHP (I always used to), it will also clean up your trigger pull -- but make a slightly longer trigger reset. 

2 - Add a tritium dot front sight.


I'd also like to see a more ergonomically designed safety, and thinner grips.

I'd really like to see a SigP226R or G19 adopted as the new service pistol (well I'd really like to see a semi-custom 1911 in .45 but back to reality) but for the interin, those improvements could be done for next to nothing.
 

 

[glock17]

I  agree with everything except the SIG, which will likely mean that's the way they will eventually go. I don't see the need for a hammer anymore, and it sits too high in the hand.( For my liking ) Well built machine, no question, but IMHO, old technology. Either of Glocks would do nicely, simple to operate, durable, and inexpensive. Let's get on with it, right.

BTW, the first thing I did to my BHP's was rip out the mag safety, the ones I have now, and the ones I had twenty years ago......

As far as training goes?  How could I possibly disagree?  I think they should hire a bunch of Professionals to come in and help out..... 8)

Stay Safe Buddy

 

[Canadian Sig]

I finally got to qualify on the Sig the other day (pre-deployment) and I have to say i love shooting that pistol. The decocking lever would IM very HO cut the ND situation greatly amongst sadly undertrained (myself included) shooters.

My only complaint was that we qualified on P225s rather than the 226 we are hoping to carry and the smaller grip caused my pinkie finger to feel like it was hanging off the bottom of the grip.

 

[Good2Golf]

[slightly OT]

What was the purpose of the BHP's mag "safety"?  I dare say it has been a partial contributing factor in probably a few BHP NDs.

G2G

 

[Eric_911]

I dare say it has been a partial contributing factor in probably a few BHP NDs.

This is not knocking you G2G, but, throughout this thread, the magazine disconnect safety has been blamed a lot for causing or contributing to ND's.

I would like to re-inforce that the magazine disconnect on the BHP does not magically and un-expectedly shoot off bullets. It is the operator 98% of the time.

The causes of ND's

-Improper training or lack of training
-People "making up" drills and TTP's for the weapon
-People not understanding the basic concept of how the weapon functions,
-Fatigue,
-and lastly, fault in the weapon. (the other 2%)

I watched a person on a range stop firing and clear their weapon by: removing mag, locking the slide to the rear, inspect the chamber to verify that it was clear, then re-insert a loaded mag (wouldnt have been a problem if the slide was already forward), hit the slide-lock lever and fire the action. bam. ND.

I have also seen (more then one person) "clear" their BHP, inspect the chamber and fire the action without removing the source of ammo (the mag). ND.

In these two instances, perhaps it was the 10-15 minutes of TOET's prior to going onto the range which was the contributing factor?

This pistol has been used since WW2. It may not be the best weapon, or the most modern, but its all we have for now, and its definately better then nothing. Christ, if it was a good enough weapon for my Grand-Father and my Father, then its good enough for me.

What was the purpose of the BHP's mag "safety"? 

I would venture, that in 1935, when the pistol was designed, the "Magazine-Disconnect safety" was probably a new and innovative idea of how to stop ND's from occuring.

Since, "in theory" you would never shoot a pistol without a mag inserted, the Mag-Disconnect ensured that the weapon would not fire, in case someone was foolish enough to somehow leave a round in the chamber and remove the mag.

 

[glock17]

While I agree with the direction of your response Eric, I would wonder why pistols made in the 21st century, by the worlds leading manufacturer are still hitting the shop floor with mag safeties?

M&P?

Almost every other S&W pistol designed for Law Enforcement use?

I think it might provide the Police Officer with a margin of safety, I've heard them discuss hitting the mag release during a struggle for the weapon, thereby disabling it for their attacker.  Poor planning in my opinion, but I have heard of it.

I believe that some jurisdictions even specify them for law enforcement use, but I will find reference to this for the thread.

And even after that, I still agree, ND's are exactly that, negligent, and can be reduced through proper training.

 

[Good2Golf]

Eric, no offense taken.  I agree with you that properly conducted, the BHP's TOET's and IAs and stoppages drills should not result in improper discharge of the weapon.  My point about the mag safety was exactly related to your first example, however, that having to re-insert a magazine to fire the action is likely a contributing factor to tsuch an ND.  Should the operator have released the slide PRIOR to inserting the mag?  Absolutely!  Does that always happen?  Well, we know that it doesn't.  If the mag safety were not there, and it was possible to clear your weapon, fire the action dry without having to insert a mag, that would be one less situation where an ND could occur.  Perhaps I should have taken a different tact on my question - turned it into a statement...I think that a pistol with a mag safety results in counter intuitive actions having to be taken to clear and prove a weapon.  The insertion of a magazine, even after the slide has been released forward, but prior to dry firing the action, I believe, is not conductive to the most intuitive (and I would think, safe) handling of the weapon.  Maybe it is just me, but for a single-action pistol, I personally feel that: clear chamber, release slide, dry-fire action and reinsert mag, is a much better sequence.

While the mag safety safeguards against a "round in the chamber, action readied, but a mag out, thus don't want the weapon to fire", I think this is a red herring argument...the odds of that configuration inadvertently occurring and having to be safeguarded are slim at best.  In fact, the only time I can see a round up the spout and no mag, would be in the case where you were counting your rounds while engaging, and dropped the empty mag for a fresh mag while not firing the last round, so that you could continue engaging with your weapon upon inserting the fresh mag without having to release the slide again after that last shot from the first mag was squeezed off.  In any event, you would full well have control of the weapon and know what you were doing.  It's not like there would be a weapon sitting on a table with no mag, but the hammer back, and someone would come along and just "pull the trigger on the unproven weapon"

G2G

 

[KevinB]

WRT the ND's -- the issue is you need to reload the weapon while still clearing the action -- and while it is operator error -- I generally try to strive to minimise areas where accidents can happen and Mr. Murphy can strike.

As well due to the general low level of pistol training and competence it would be a better idea to make the manual of arms the same as the C7/C8 series --

 

[Eric_911]

I-6, G2G, and G17, I agree with you all. The BHP was a pistol designed for a different era. I was not trying to imply that the mag-disconnect was a good feature, I am definitely not fond of it. I just wanted to point out that it is way too convenient for people to blame the pistol for ND's, when, in reality, it is the individuals own fault.

As to why pistols are still developed with mag-disconnects? Couldn't tell you. Maybe "dinosaur thinking" which is still occurring in some circles? 

We can hope that the next generation of pistol for the CF has more thought put into it, as well as some serious end-user input.

It's not like there would be a weapon sitting on a table with no mag, but the hammer back, and someone would come along and just "pull the trigger on the unproven weapon"

I would hope not... unless you deal crack out of your apartment during your off-time  ;D

Cheers,
Eric

edit for spelling

 

[Good2Golf]

....I would hope not... unless you deal crack out of you're apartment during your off-time  ;D

...or you're this guy.  :

Cheers

G2G

 

[1feral1]

When in theatre, and outside the wire, my BHP Mk III, had one up the spout and on safe. I left it at that, and once back behind the wire, it was properly unloaded IAW the drills and standard of the FOB.  Loaded mags were in pouches when at the 'unload', so we always had ammo. With the exception of a shower, or sleeping, we were always armed, this included PT and sports.

EDIT: All Australian pistols have the magazine safety removed. I don't know if the CF still have them installed. This was a recent mod, and has changed the handling drills in the pam, as you can imagine.

Although I am very confident on the BHP (since 1976 - and own one [yes, a T series Inglis] from 1980 til now), I have never bothered with the 14th rd (on issue pistols - 10 rds on private mags since the early 1990s). All the fucking about with this process off adding that extra rd, although simple, I just think its better left alone. However, if it floats your boat, feel free.

I used two holsters in Iraq, depending on my mood. An old CF issue 82 Ptrn and belt, and the CF Armoured Corps shoulder holster (c.1991). I steered clear of the Aussie ones, as I was not comfortable with them. I still use the CF ones here on Ex too, but tend to stick to the shoulder holster, as the hip one gets caught up in the hatches of the LAV.

Cheers,

Wes

 

[glock17]

As to why pistols are still developed with mag-disconnects? Couldn't tell you. Maybe "dinosaur thinking" which is still occurring in some circles? 

edit for spelling

I haven't found a direct link yet, but apparantly California has introduced legislation that requires all new handguns sold there to have both a magazine disconnect and a loaded chamber indicator, and the law took effect 1/1/08...This is off a bunch of other boards I ran across...still looking.

 

[glock17]

Here's the California legislation regarding "Unsafe Handguns".

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12125.php

(5) Commencing January 1, 2007, for all center-fire semiautomatic pistols that are not already listed on the roster pursuant to Section 12131, it does not have both a chamber load indicator and if it has a detachable magazine, a magazine disconnect mechanism.
(6) Commencing January 1, 2006, for all rimfire semiautomatic pistols that are not already listed on the roster pursuant to Section 12131, it does not have a magazine disconnect mechanism, if it has a detachable magazine.
(c) As used in this section, a "chamber load indicator" means a device that plainly indicates that a cartridge is in the firing chamber. A device satisfies this definition if it is readily visible, has incorporated or adjacent explanatory text or graphics, or both, and is designed and intended to indicate to a reasonably foreseeable adult user of the pistol, without requiring the user to refer to a user's manual or any other resource other than the pistol itself, whether a cartridge is in the firing chamber.
(d) As used in this section, a "magazine disconnect mechanism" means a mechanism that prevents a semiautomatic pistol that has a detachable magazine from operating to strike the primer of ammunition in the firing chamber when a detachable magazine is not inserted in the semiautomatic pistol.

Isn't that special

Stay Safe

 

[1feral1]

Coming from the PRK, and all their silly gun regs, I am not suprised.