Sacrifice Medal Mega Thread

[Greymatters]

What is next?  Are we going to have Canadian Forces CSI landing on the ground to ensure all medals and decoration are worthy of their meaning?
are involved in the decision process, be allowed to re-enact the day to see what they feel is a true sacrifice.

Not sure if it is true throughout the US military, but it was explained to me that they do have an investigative process for this prior to awarding any medal where injury, or award of merit or honor is involved.

 

[dapaterson]

Oh god... I'd ask you to tell me you're joking about this badge, Vern, but I somehow doubt that you are. It sounds just like the kind of brilliant idea that would come out of Disney-On-The-Rideau... Got any links about this, or is it still RUMINT?

"Disney on the Rideau" fought the sacrifice medal for reasons such as this, and fought the CAB for the same reasons.  But what the Big Cod wanted, the Big Cod got... (like the useless new command HQs.)

 

[armyvern]

(like the useless new command HQs.)

You mean the ones who are eating up all the personnel that we could really use out here on the bases?

 

[dapaterson]

Actually, mostly they ate up the people who had been in Ottawa warming chairs for a decade or more who didn't want to move anyways.  A couple of years ago I met someone who had spent the last 28 years of his Reg F career in Ottawa, with 10+ postings in that time...

 

[Blackadder1916]

The discontent widens.

Military medal rules 'callous,' family says

By CHRIS LAMBIE  The Chronicle Herald Staff Reporter Thu. Sep 18 - 5:19 AM

Parents of at least three Nova Scotia soldiers who died in Afghanistan want to know why their sons don’t appear to qualify for the military’s new Sacrifice Medal.

The medal, announced last month, will be awarded to soldiers who died or suffered wounds in combat. But the military’s official criteria rule out death or wounds in a war zone not directly attributable to hostile action, such as driving mishaps or accidental shootings.

"It’s a little narrow-sighted, kind of shallow thinking and perhaps callous," said Bev Woodfield, the mother of Pte. Braun Scott Woodfield, the 24-year-old soldier from Cow Bay who died in November 2005 when his light armoured vehicle rolled over near Kandahar.

"I think this is somewhat of an oversight. They all go over there for the same reason. They’re all making sacrifices."

The Defence Department should show some compassion and award the medal to all soldiers killed or injured in Afghanistan, she said.

"This is wrong to put division between the soldiers," Ms. Woodfield said Wednesday.

"Perhaps all the politicians that are running for a federal seat could chip in $10 and make sure that all the soldiers who have been injured or killed over in Afghanistan damn well get a medal. It’s sinful."

Pte. Woodfield’s father also feels his son should receive the medal posthumously.

"Were there bullets being fired at the time? No," said Dan Woodfield, a retired naval officer. "But because they were travelling in an area where those activities were and are going on, then that (medal) should be given as a result."

Several other Nova Scotia soldiers killed in Afghanistan don’t appear to qualify for the medal.

Cpl. Kevin Megeney, 25, of Stellarton died when he was allegedly shot accidentally in his tent by another soldier from Nova Scotia.

"They’re over there serving," said his father, Dexter Megeney. "If they die over there, they should receive a medal, definitely."

The military hasn’t awarded Cpl. Megeney a medal for his service in Afghanistan, said his dad.

"They brought a coin to us, but that was it."

Cpl. Paul Davis, a 28-year-old Bridgewater native, died March 2, 2006, in Afghanistan when his light armoured vehicle hit a taxi, veered off the road and flipped.

"Paul was officially classified as a traffic accident," said his father, Jim Davis. "I don’t believe he will qualify for one" of the medals.

But he should, Mr. Davis said.

"I have two grandchildren and it’s always nice for them to cherish memories of their dad," he said. "If a medal can help them in their grieving, then give them a medal. Some people might argue it diminishes the importance of a medal. Not in my mind. I don’t think it does. These soldiers are sent overseas and they’re put in harm’s way. I can’t see the logic behind saying they’re not going to give the medal because you were killed in an accident."

Ben Walsh, a Regina man whose son, Master Cpl. Jeffrey Walsh, died in Afghanistan in 2006 when he was accidentally shot by a fellow soldier, said it is possible 13 Canadians killed in Afghanistan will not receive the honour.

"One phone call from the Prime Minister’s Office and this can be changed," Mr. Walsh said. "It’s a hot potato (in Ottawa) right now. It’s jumping from office to office and nobody seems to want to deal with it. They just want it to go away, but I won’t let it go away.

"I’m like Danny Williams in Newfoundland. I won’t leave them alone. He’s at (Stephen) Harper’s right foot and I’m going to be at his left."

It’s not clear who’s responsible for the decision to restrict the medals to combat casualties.

Nominations for the medal are made through the military’s chain of command, said Marie-Paule Thorn, a spokeswoman from the office of Governor General Michaelle Jean.

Ms. Thorn referred questions about the medals to public affairs at the Defence Department.

"My understanding is that the GG’s office determines the criteria for the medal and National Defence administers," said department spokeswoman Sarah Kavanagh.

( clambie@herald.ca)

 

[brihard]

"Disney on the Rideau" fought the sacrifice medal for reasons such as this, and fought the CAB for the same reasons.  But what the Big Cod wanted, the Big Cod got... (like the useless new command HQs.)

No personal stabs intended there, dapaterson, I've got two log officers in my immediate family and respect what you guys do. I mistakenly assumed these ideas for new, shiny, unnecessary decorations came out of some committee sequestered downtown, and not from The Big Man himself. Apologies if you took that personally; plenty of people at NDHQ do valuable jobs- but there's also enough nonsense out of there to justify some occasional jest. That's all I intended by my 'disney' remark.

 

[dapaterson]

No offense taken - besides, there are fun things to spend your time at in Disneyland; not so much at 101 Col By... so the analogy fails...

 

[forgotten]

When you get down to it, our troops were held captive every time the Serbs / Croats / Bosnian Serbs stopped one of our vehicles & stuck mines Fore & Aft - preventing our troops from going anywhere. 

I have a friend who was in the Medoc Pocket battle and he received I guess whats called the Gov general citation or something to that effect quote me if I am wrong..O k I have an interesting "ad em" If you have been following what I have written not only were we fired upon at our op, but informed to maintain Radio silence and all communication including our field telephone..As our HQ at the time we were waiting for the "UN" in New York to make a decision...Two days later our carrier came and picked us up..Is there anyway that I can get more official info of this incident...Cause we should not have been "stuck" there for 2 days..I have tryed to get any info from the UN or any official sight as to what official record if any..Can someone help me in the right direction as to how and where I can find out? Please do not flame me or ridicule me and say I am full of BS..All I am looking for is an official record..I wouldn't per say I was a POW or held hostage..But this happened over 30 years ago and I am still trying to sort this "fog" out. Thx in advance...I am am very weary about identifieng myself as what I thought were close friends and alllies etc..back in 98 when it "flooded" back in a very negative way I was ridiculed and harassed and told to "get over it" to the point i had the ombudsman involved...Alll I want is just closure and to live my life with dignity instead of ridicule or doubt..

 

[Michael OLeary]

Have you tried an Access to Information request?

http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/tbsf-fsct/350-57-eng.asp

 

[armyvern]

No personal stabs intended there, dapaterson, I've got two log officers in my immediate family and respect what you guys do. I mistakenly assumed these ideas for new, shiny, unnecessary decorations came out of some committee sequestered downtown, and not from The Big Man himself. Apologies if you took that personally; plenty of people at NDHQ do valuable jobs- but there's also enough nonsense out of there to justify some occasional jest. That's all I intended by my 'disney' remark.

You think he'd be offended by your use of that term??

Have you missed the line under his user name - it's been there forever??

"I'm from NDHQ. I'm here to help."  >

~Vern runs quickly away ...~

 

[geo]

Forgotten,

Being stuck out in the middle of nowhere while warring parties are slugging it out all around you is bound to be traumatic.  For that, I give you a tip of my hat... however, I have a nagging feeling that you will never find out WHY you were left out in your OP for two days.

Obviously things were happening & leaders (both political & military) were trying to decide what to do.  I can only presume that the military commander advised the politicos that they wanted to pull the OP while the politicos weren't sure what they wanted to do.

Anyway, glad you came out of it in one piece & have been able to move ahead.

Cheers!

 

[Infanteer]

The discontent widens.

Military medal rules 'callous,' family says

As much as I sympathize with these families for losing their loved ones, the rule of combat injury seem quite clear cut.  If the accident occured in Canada, would it also merit the award?  Then we have no distinction for combat wounds, something we've been recognizing for a while.... :-\

 

[armyvern]

As much as I sympathize with these families for losing their loved ones, the rule of combat injury seem quite clear cut.  If the accident occured in Canada, would it also merit the award?  Then we have no distinction for combat wounds, something we've been recognizing for a while.... :-\

Exactly. This Sacrifice Medal is replacing the Wound Stripe.

No one was complaining when their loved ones weren't getting that; it may sound harsh to say ... but man ... this is nuts.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s Ottawa Citizen is a report that Minister McKay has entered the fray:

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=61ae8988-bdf2-4091-911b-d4048d9f1941

MacKay asks military awards committee to consider change for fallen soldiers
Families protest limit on Sacrifice Medal to 'hostile action' victims

Richard Foot, Canwest News Service

Published: Friday, September 19, 2008

Defence Minister Peter MacKay has intervened in the controversy surrounding a new medal for soldiers killed or injured in Afghanistan, asking a federal committee that oversees military awards to consider easing restrictions on who should receive the honour.

The families of at least 14 soldiers killed in Afghanistan are angry that their lost sons and husbands will not qualify for Canada's new military Sacrifice Medal because their deaths were not the result of "hostile action."

Of the 97 Canadian soldiers killed in Afghanistan since 2002, about a dozen have died from vehicle rollovers, accidental shootings or other mishaps, including one soldier who fell down a village well during a night patrol.

The office of Gov. Gen. Michaëlle Jean, which formally administers Canada's honours system, unveiled the Sacrifice Medal in August, along with eligibility criteria limiting it to military members killed or wounded since 2001 by enemy action.

Public anger over those rules erupted this week after Ben Walsh learned that his son, Master Cpl. Jeffrey Walsh, did not qualify for the honour. Walsh, 33, died in Kandahar in 2006, when he was accidentally shot by another Canadian.

Ben Walsh, who lives in Regina, helped organize an online petition to protest the rules surrounding the medal. By yesterday, the petition contained more than 2,500 names, including relatives of at least 14 soldiers killed in Afghanistan.

"I am absolutely appalled. I cannot believe that some soldiers will get this honour and others won't," says Dale Wilson, a resident of Kenora, Ont., whose son, Master Cpl. Tim Wilson, 33, died from his injuries in an armoured car crash in Kandahar in 2006.

"My son was doing his duty, operating in a combat zone. He and every other soldier killed over there in the service of their country should get the medal."

A senior member of Mr. MacKay's staff said yesterday that the defence minister believed Master Cpl. Walsh, for one, deserved the medal and had asked his department to re-examine his eligibility.

Mr. MacKay has also appealed to the honours policy committee, a multi-department board that oversees the rules for federal awards, to reconsider the rules for the Sacrifice Medal.

Any changes must be approved by a federal cabinet order and signed by the Governor General. However a spokeswoman for Ms. Jean's office said no changes to the rules were currently being considered by Rideau Hall.

Dale Wilson sent a protest letter to Prime Minister Stephen Harper and other politicians yesterday.

"For the first time in our lives we are truly ashamed of being Canadian," the letter said. "(Tim) was sent to Afghanistan by you, executing his duties as ordered. ... Do we tell our grandson, 'Oh yes, your daddy died for the country, but he didn't qualify for the Sacrifice Medal' -- he didn't qualify -- how much more could he give!"

© The Ottawa Citizen 2008​

 

[Greymatters]

International Law, (formed from the Hague Law, The Geneva Conventions etc) defines "war" as "Armed Conflict", ergo the name applicable is:

While a valid point, it makes little difference what international law says on this issue - what matters is how our political leaders desire to interpret the issue.  One excuse used in the past (1st Gulf War era) was that, in the absence of a formal declaration of war, no state of war existed, therefore no POWs could exist. 

 

[the 48th regulator]

Exactly. This Sacrifice Medal is replacing the Wound Stripe.

No one was complaining when their loved ones weren't getting that; it may sound harsh to say ... but man ... this is nuts.

Maybe the fact that the Wound Stripe was not as well known, by the the civillian populace, as some people have claimed it is.

A medal, to most civillians, is a recognition that is known.  A patch on the arm is no different than a rank, marksman badge, a trades badge etc etc....it was only a dress disticntion.

dileas

tess

 

[forgotten]

OK its official I was informed by the CWO from the centre in Ottawa I am getting my wound stripe and they will hold an official presentation at my legion branch.. They have my files from the archives and it was red flagged..That was the only question they asked me was where to present it..and I said well I am no longer in the "system per-say' but my legion branch will doThis will hopefully give me some sort of closure in some way!! ..BTW thx everyone for the support and Input!! pro Patria..

 

[armyvern]

While a valid point, it makes little difference what international law says on this issue - what matters is how our political leaders desire to interpret the issue.  One excuse used in the past (1st Gulf War era) was that, in the absence of a formal declaration of war, no state of war existed, therefore no POWs could exist. 

Geez,

You must have MISSED the part where I said:

"although everyone else seems to recognize and acknowledge their status officially - apparently our own government chooses not to. Interesting that."

And, BTW, as to your last sentence above ... apparently ... "only in Canada." 

 

[armyvern]

Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s Ottawa Citizen is a report that Minister McKay has entered the fray:

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=61ae8988-bdf2-4091-911b-d4048d9f1941

Well, I hope if he's successful at this ... it's for everyone killed while on ANY Operational tours then. Period. Or I'd certainly be pissed if I was the family of one of those fallen members. And, if so ... then ANY soldier killed while doing his job -- in Canada or abroad, else I'd be pissed if I were there families too ... see where this is all leading now?

And, the circle will continue. Why can't we ever set a standard and stick with it?

 

[the 48th regulator]

Well, I hope if he's successful at this ... it's for everyone killed while on ANY Operational tours then. Period. Or I'd certainly be pissed if I was the family of one of those fallen members. And, if so ... then ANY soldier killed while doing his job -- in Canada or abroad, else I'd be pissed if I were there families too ... see where this is all leading now?

And, the circle will continue. Why can't we ever set a standard and stick with it?

Because the standard in this case, does not appear to have been well thought out.  Standards are not meant to be set in stone either Vern, otherwise you would not have been able to make any comments, based on personal military experience.  It would not have been allowed,

dileas

tess