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RNZN Protector Project" Vessels

OK then,

We MUST have Mil Spec.  I will so stipulate even if I don't fully appreciate the rationale.
I agree that the Coast Guard doesn't want to get involved with "shooting" and that they are out of the running.

So that indeed leaves the RCMP, who has operated launches only, and the Navy who doesn't want to get stuck in home waters apparently.

Assuming that some agency could be found to supply sailors to assist the Air Force in covering our national approaches (and potentially deploy to hot zones as circumstances warrant) how would you feel like trading in the PYs for manning 1 CPF and  tasking that crew to man 5 Visby class corvettes?  43 crew per vessel. They run at about 184 MUSD each.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/3724219.stm
http://www.kockums.se/SurfaceVessels/visby.html
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/visby/

Or how about something like the LCS with a crew in the 15 to 75 range (with up to 60 of them being Mission Specialist "Passengers" and not permanent parts of the ships company)

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/littoral/
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/littoral/specs.html
 
I wouldn't the idea of becoming a coastal defence force is not appealing at all. To get rid of our expeditionary assets is like getting rid of an infantry company or the Leopards all over again.

Kirkhill, if you can do a tour on an actual warship before being dismissive of what DC equipment we have, you are really missing the point on this.
 
Ex-D -

I am not being dismissive. 

I am trying to understand how other nation's navies manage to cover bases that we as a nation don't cover using any assets of any force. 

I want to keep the blue water, expeditionary capability. 

But there are other things that I feel need doing as well, and that includes a more effective an robust patrolling of our domestic waters.

Wouldn't at least some of your shipmates appreciate the opportunity to spend part of their career on a two weeks on / two weeks off assignment patrolling the EEZ and approaches from their home port?
 
We can do that by beefing up the Nav Res and giving them some OPVs/IPVs and MMs.

We don't do two weeks and two weeks off. Our sailing schedule does not work that way.

To reinforce my point I deirect you back to SKTs point on Reply#51 when he was on the Ottawa. Nuff said
 
I found this article that at least in theory puts some "Hooray" on our current military prediciment. If the harper government keeps to its plan our military will get a long deserved boost. Its from July last year, but good reading just the same.

Canada's Prime Minister Harper Adds Military Muscle
By Paul Jackson
Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper's Conservative government is quickly fulfilling campaign promises to rebuild the nation's military by going on an unprecedented $15 billion peacetime spending spree on heavy transport planes, helicopters, ships and trucks.

That plan will surely get the 46—year—old prime minister a hearty handshake when  he meets with President George W. Bush at the White House on Thursday, which is, incidentally, the president's 60th birthday. Harper will already have been accorded the rare honor of staying overnight Wednesday at Blair House, the official White House guest quarters.

The $15 billion (Cdn.) procurement package is basically equivalent to the current annual budget of the Canadian military, which hovers around $15 billion but which the Harper government also plans to increase substantially year—by—year.

To give dramatic effect to the planned purchases they were all announced in a single week by Defense Minister Gordon O'Connor. The procurement plans include:

*$4 billion to buy and maintain four long—range, heavy—lift aircraft, likely the Boeing C—17 Globemaster.

*$3.2 billion for 17 other transport aircraft to replace the decades—old Hercules fleet.

*$2 billion for 16 medium—to—heavy lift helicopters.

$2.1 billion for three new supply ships.

*$1.2 billion to buy 2,300 military trucks to replace the rusted out contingent used to supply and transport the armed forces.

For comparison of scale, it's worth noting Canada's population and economy are about the same size as that of California. The country's population is 33 million, and a Canadian dollar is worth about 90—cents U.S. For simplicity's sake, many observers simply multiply a Canadian statistic by 10 to get the U.S. equivalent.

Canada's fleet of 1960s' era Hercules transport aircraft demonstrate, as do its 40—year—old Sea King search and rescue helicopters, the deteriorated state of much of the nation's heavy military equipment. In any given day up to 20 of the 30 Hercules fleet are on the ground waiting to be repaired. The Sea Kings, now being replaced slowly by a fleet of 28 Cyclone helicopters, are notorious for crashing and spend far more time having maintenance work done to them than in the air operationally.

The procurement announcements came just as former Canadian Ambassador to Washington, Frank McKenna, was urging his Liberal party to back the U.S. ballistic missile defense shield. McKenna, a former premier of New Brunswick, had been thought to be the heir apparent to outgoing Liberal leader and former prime minister Paul Martin. But surprising almost everyone, McKenna suddenly decided not to join the Liberal leadership race.

While serving as Canada's prime minister, Martin infuriated Bush and his administration by giving the impression his government would join the missile defense shield program and then backing out at the last moment. To add insult to injury, Martin didn't even inform Bush himself of the decision, leaving it to one of his cabinet ministers.

Harper, as opposition leader, basically sat on the fence during the missile defense shield debate — much to the annoyance of many in his party — but it was suggested he did not want to get on the wrong side of an issue with the electorate that might cost him votes and an election win. It is now fairly obvious that if, as is likely, Harper wins a majority mandate in the next election, his government would quickly move to join the defense shield program.

With the new announcements, Harper declared his government was 'correcting 13 years of Liberal neglect' of the armed forces. In the mid—1990s, under Liberal Prime Minister Jean Chretien, Martin, as finance minister, cut the military's budget by 25% and its manpower level from 80,000 to 60,000 men and women in uniform.

O'Connor, a former brigadier—general, wants to get the military personnel back up to the pre—Martin cut levels, and likely higher. Even at just 60,000 personnel, Canada only has about 20,000 combat ready troops available at any given time. Incidentally, O'Connor is the first Canadian defense minister in recent times to have actually served in uniform.

The new defense spending plans are sure to further please the Bush administration, as are the Harper government's moves to take the nation from a Liberal—Left tilt in foreign affairs to a stance more in line with that of the U.S. Canada's new foreign affairs minister, Peter MacKay, has already forged a close friendship with Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. Harper and Bush chat frequently on the telephone, unlike Chretien and Martin who so upset Bush with their anti—American slurs they rarely got their telephone calls to the White House returned.

Just as Harper and O'Connor were making the procurement announcements, and McKenna his defense shield comments, Senator Colin Kenny, chairman of the Senate committee on national security and defense, released his committee's latest report entitled 'The Government's No. 1 Job: Securing the Military Options it Needs to Protect Canadians'. In the June 303—page report, Kenny calls for a doubling of the current $15 billion (Cnd.) military  budget to $30 billion or $35 billion (Cnd.). He welcomed the new announcements, but contended military spending plans by the Harper government still fall short.

Paradoxically, Kenny was appointed to the Senate by the late Liberal—Left and anti—military prime minister, Pierre Trudeau. Kenny had been a longtime aide to Trudeau, but since the 9/11 terrorist attacks and taking over as chairman of the Senate committee on national security and defense he has seemingly turned into a 'Liberal hawk' as he criss—crosses the nation, probes the lack of security at Canadian airports and sea ports, and insists on sitting down with rank—and—file members of the armed forces as well as officers to get their views on what the military needs. Aside from a $30 billion to $35 billion budget, Kenny wants to see the military's strength increased to 90,000 personnel.

Incidentally, through the administrations of several Liberal prime ministers until Trudeau the country maintained a high military stance. From Second World War prime minister William Lyon Mackenzie King, to his 1950s successor, Louis St. Laurent and 1960s' prime minister Lester Pearson the nation's military force was fairly constant. That came to an end with Trudeau.

Although Canadians generally knew Trudeau's heroes included Communist dictators Fidel Castro and Mao Tse—tung, just weeks ago a new scholarly book shed sensational light on his philosophies long before entering federal politics. The book Young Trudeau: Son of Quebec, Father of Canada 1919—1944 by Max and Monique Nemni, paints Trudeau as being both a Fascist sympathizer and anti—Semitic in the 1930s and early 1940s.

Although it was well known Trudeau had avoided conscription during the Second World War, the Nemnis' (both admirers of Trudeau) also revealed he blamed Britain for starting the war, claimed Canada was ruled by a 'military clique', and denounced Mackenzie King's declaration of war against Nazi Germany in 1939. In his more youthful days he was also a Quebec separatist, declaring one day Quebec would be a sovereign independent state. Insightfully, the one issue even his harshest critics gave him credit for during his prime ministership was that Trudeau battled Quebec separatism all down the line.

On his travels across the nation, Kenny has often walked into supposedly secure areas of airports and sea ports without being challenged. His findings of lapses of security and the possibility airports and sea ports have been infiltrated by criminal elements have shaken 'thinking' Canadians.

Kenny has constantly tried to wake Canadians up against what he says is both complacency and a false sense of security. Chretien himself added to the attitude of many Canadians by insisting because Canada is a 'multicultural' nation it is safe from terrorist attacks. That's even though it is well known Canada is one of the targets on Osama bin Laden's hit list. Just a month ago police and security forces arrested 17 individuals alleged to be 'home grown Islamic terrorists' who  planned to blow up several Canadian landmarks and even invade the House of Commons and capture and behead the prime minister.

Kenny — who must appall the basic Liberal—Left structure of his own party as much as Zell Miller appalls the Liberal—Lefters in the Democratic party, has tried to demolish three myths Trudeau, Chretien and Martin perpetuated:

Myth One: Canada is not a warlike nation. True, he says, but Canadians have a history of protecting themselves, and standing up for what is right when the crunch comes. He points to Canada's participation in the First World War, the Second World War and the Korean War. Coincidentally, in the Second World War one—in—ten Canadians were in uniform, a rate said to be higher than its allies. At the end of the Second World War, with a population of around 11 million, Canada is thought to have had the fourth largest military in the world.

Myth Two: There is no imminent threat to Canadians. Not so, he says. Canadians live in a shrunken world in which borders and even oceans offer limited buffers to disaster. He notes Royal Canadian Mounted Police Commissioner Guiliano Zaccardelli testified before Kenny's Senate committee in May  that he expects a terrorist  attack  will occur on Canadian soil. Zaccardelli pointed out the U.S., Britain, Australia, Spain, Indonesia, Kenya, the Philippines and Saudi Arabia had already been attacked, as had Iraq. Commented Kenny, 'Canada has an unenviable  place on al—Qaida's list of countries to be targeted.'

Myth Three: The Americans will take care of Canada. Kenny's assessments: The U.S. is a great friend of Canada. On a huge number of issues, the interests of both countries are complementary. But Americans look after their own interests first and foremost, and so should Canadians. The dependence of one nation depending on another nation for its survival is dangerous. In a nutshell, when it comes down to it, the U.S. will look after Canada in a crisis if it can, but it naturally will have to look after its own citizens first. That's why Canada must become self—sufficient of its own security and defense.

Kenny also notes, as have Conservative politicians, that Canada's expenditures on defense as a percentage of its Gross National product (GNP) are abysmal. In 2005, the U.S spent $1,712 per capita, and Britain spent $903.  Australia $648, and  even The Netherlands spent $658. Yet Canada spent only $343 for each man, woman and child to defend the nation. All figures are in Canadian dollars, so add 10% to translate to U.S. dollars.

Canada's defense spending has often been as low as 1% of its GNP — 1996—97 to 1999—2000, for instance. In 2000—01 and 2001—02 it fell to 0.9% In 2005—06 it was just 6.8% of total federal government spending.

Rounded out, Kenny says both Britain and France spend roughly 2% of their GNP for defense, and if Canada spent that much a $30 billion (Cnd. ) annual defense budget would be quite attainable and sustainable.

Still to come from Harper's government are details of  Arctic military icebreaking vessels and other large military hardware. The U.S. disputes Canada's sovereignty claims over the Northwest Passage, which could one day become a major all—weather sea international lane, but Washington has hinted it may accept the claim of  Canadian sovereignty if Ottawa can guarantee security of the region. By having military icebreakers patrol the Arctic, Canada would not only be demonstrating military muscle, but it would ease Liberal—Left criticism the Harper government is in Washington's pocket.

Kenny's all party committee, by the way, wants to see between $58 billion and $81 billion spent on big ticket military hardware over the next 20 years.

Kenny has also criticized the idea that defense procurements should always have economic benefits for Canadian industry. He believes they should be based on getting the best equipment possible, at the best possible price, and in the shortest period of  time. Rather than tying purchases to some form of 'regional economic development' programs for depressed areas, he wants to see the government have an 'off the shelf' purchasing policy and obtain equipment compatible with that used by the Canada's allies.

Some analysts actually contend  the Liberal senator's reports and recommendations could simply be used by the Conservatives as their own blueprint for rebuilding the nation's military and ensuring the security of its coasts and airspace. That's not the view of Liberal MPs who this past week condemned Harper's and O'Connor's military spending plans.

In response to Liberal attacks in the House of Commons, Harper said,

'I do not care whether the party opposite does not support our military. This party does, and we will have a strong military for a strong country.'

No one doubts the youthful prime minister's resolve any more.

Paul Jackson is a veteran and award—winning Canadian journalist who has spent four decades writing on politics, foreign affairs and defence for many of Canada's major metropolitan daily newspapers. He is now Editor Emeritus of the Calgary Sun.
Source: http://www.americanthinker.com/2006/07/canadas_prime_minister_harper.html
 
Ex-Dragoon said:
Any ship we could use in a hot zone (Mine Counter Measure vessels, AORs, amphibs, destroyers and frigates etc) must be made with mil spec. I won't debate this, this should not be debated at all. Its negligence and possibly murder to advocate anything less then mil spec for ships that will potentially be involved in combat.

No arguing with that. It's just common sense. All of those types of vessels should be made mil spec. To do otherwise would be foolish and dangerous.

But do you really think the MCDV's would be up to performing in such an area of operations anyway?

Like I said, for the same price when it comes time to replace them you could get civ spec Patrol Boats, and some proper MCM's.


Ex-Dragoon said:
I wouldn't the idea of becoming a coastal defence force is not appealing at all. To get rid of our expeditionary assets is like getting rid of an infantry company or the Leopards all over again.

Who said anything of the sort?

Taking up a patrol role certainly doesn't mean you have to give up blue-water capability. In fact it could add to it, as you would need less of your major fleet units loitering around home waters for the duties which could just as easily be done by a smaller vessel.

And really expeditionary requires amphib ships.
Frigates, destroyers and AOR's only constitute Blue Water capability, not expeditionary.
 
cobbler said:
But do you really think the MCDV's would be up to performing in such an area of operations anyway?

.

Do you realy think they were designed for that in the first place ?
 
But do you really think the MCDV's would be up to performing in such an area of operations anyway?
Like I said, for the same price when it comes time to replace them you could get civ spec Patrol Boats, and some proper MCM's.

First off the MCDVs are not mil spec they have civ spec as well. Second read my posts again where I conceded IPVs made to Civ Spec might be beneficial. Having seen the MCDVs deployed to Europe illustrates that they are deployable. If the powers that sign our pay cheques say they need to be!

Taking up a patrol role certainly doesn't mean you have to give up blue-water capability. In fact it could add to it, as you would need less of your major fleet units loitering around home waters for the duties which could just as easily be done by a smaller vessel.

And really expeditionary requires amphib ships.
Frigates, destroyers and AOR's only constitute Blue Water capability, not expeditionary.

I see you know little of the CF and how it actually functions.....if we start putting a lot of money into inshore assets (our expeditionary assets yes I said expeditionary assets) as I have heard enough 3 ringers and above call our frigates, destroyers and AORs expeditionary units. THe government will deide we do need that capability and you will see frigates destroyers and AORs go the way of the do-do.

Expeditionary while usually pertains to amphibs does not constitute it totally, if you look it up you will see it pertains to any military force sent abroad.
 
Weather Mil Spec or other  ex Dragoon have you ever heard of HMCS Kootenay .
Well for your info this was a fully mil spec warship.  She had an explosion and fire with loss of life and severe injuries and the vessel at one point was in fear of being lost.
After this incident an investigation showed that this whole class of warship plus her sister classes of warships were woefully lacking in both DC and firefighting equipment.
The Kootenay Not only used up her own firefighting equipment but most of all the ships who were in company which included  the carrier Bonaventure. Now this was from a gearbox explosion and not military action yet was disasterous. Shortly after all navy ships were provided with twice as much firefighting equipment and many improvments were made to DC methods and the whole navy's publications & training methods .  Mil Spec by itself means nothing , if given the choice of going in harms way in a CPF or Tribal  as agianst a Kongo or F-124  i'm afraid there would be no contest.

Cheers
 
Yes that was a "Mil Spec" warship in 1969, the technology and design today is considerability better now than then. If that ship wasn't "mil spec" do you think it would of survived? It wasn't just a lack of firefighting gear on the Kootney, it was also due to the fact that the ship was operating in DC condition X ray, with most of the doors and hatches open during full power trials.
 
Thanks Stoney I am very well aware of the Kootenay and I am also aware of the Falklands Islands and the Iran-Iraq War which is why I advocate the lessons learned for Modern mil spec vessels from these occurences.

Agreed Stoker...100%
 
Meanwhile, on the other side of the world...

Canterbury tales: NZ MoD slated over flawed MRV deal
By Jon Rosamond
janes.com
24 October 2008


When waves 6 m high tore a rigid-hull inflatable boat (RHIB) from its station aboard HMNZS Canterbury, less than six weeks after the 8,870-ton auxiliary had been accepted into service, it was hardly the most auspicious start for the ship's operational career under the New Zealand ensign. But the alarm bells began sounding even more urgently when, three months later, a member of the ship's company was killed during what should have been a routine manoeuvre to deploy another RHIB.

The two incidents - on 10 July and 5 October 2007 respectively - prompted the New Zealand Ministry of Defence (MoD) to announce in December that it had ordered an independent inquiry into Canterbury's acquisition and introduction into service, focusing on the ship's safety and functionality. The review was to be led by John Coles, formerly chief executive of the UK's Warship Support Agency.

Coles' report, published on 12 September 2008, is brutally frank and exposes serious weaknesses in MoD procedures and management. He states that the procurement was "constrained... by the initial choice of ship design, it has been managed to get the ship into service as soon as possible, and it has been characterised by shortcomings in project management and governance and collective wishful thinking".

Furthermore, Coles and his review team judged that the ship "is unlikely to meet all of the requirements" of the delivery contract awarded to Tenix Defence Systems (now part of BAE Systems Australia) in July 2004, and that "remedial work" is necessary to allow Canterbury to perform military tasks.

Most damaging, perhaps, are the assertions that even when the improvements have been completed, the Royal New Zealand Navy (RNZN) will have to impose operating limitations on the ship, and that its sea-keeping "is likely to be poorer in higher sea states".


Navy and government officials can at least draw comfort from Coles' confirmation that Canterbury is "intrinsically safe" to go to sea and that "the functionality required by the NZDF [New Zealand Defence Force] has or will be achieved".

In a press release issued on the day of the report's publication, the MoD said the review "has concluded that the ship will be a valuable asset" for the navy and that the Coles team had decided there "was no connection between design and performance issues and the death of sailor Byron Solomon".

New Zealand's requirement for a multirole ship capable of performing a broad range of sealift, logistic support and relief tasks in the South Pacific region can be traced back to the 1987 defence review, which identified a capability gap for a vessel to deploy army units around the region and transport stores to sustain such deployments.

BMT Defence Services undertook a project definition study for a new-build logistic support ship and proposed a vessel featuring a twin-hangar, two-spot flight deck, four landing craft launched from side davits, and accommodation for an embarked military force of up to 200 troops, in addition to a standard complement of 60.

However, the price tag was deemed unaffordable and the concept was quietly abandoned; attention turned instead to the possible acquisition of a second-hand military ship or a converted merchant vessel. By the early 1990s, the capital outlay for the RNZN's new Anzac-class frigates had left little room for the acquisition of a sealift ship. Even so, the 1991 Defence White Paper reiterated the continuing need for such a capability, noting that the NZDF had "insufficient transport to deploy and sustain a reinforced battalion group away from New Zealand".

One possibility investigated by the NZDF was the lease of the Royal Australian Navy landing ship HMAS Tobruk, which was expected to become surplus to requirements following Australia's acquisition of two ex-US Navy Newport-class landing ships (which became HMAS Kanimbla and HMAS Manoora). In the event, Tobruk's large manning requirement and attendant operating costs persuaded New Zealand to look instead at the acquisition of a mercantile hull...
 
Hmmm wasn't this the class so many were advocating in the past for our Navy?
 
A notable update:

inshore-patrol-vessels-rotoiti.jpg




NZ Navy Welcomes New Inshore Patrol Vessels
Navy News — By Editor on April 16, 2009 at 5:52 am
(1 votes, average: 4.00 out of 5)

http://www.defencetalk.com/navy-welcomes-new-inshore-patrol-vessels-17839/

Chief of Navy, Rear Admiral David Ledson says the upcoming delivery of the four new Inshore Patrol Vessels (IPVs) is an important and significant step for the Navy, the New Zealand Defence Force, and the whole country.

The Minister of Defence announced earlier today that the four ships, ROTOITI, HAWERA, PUKAKI and TAUPO are soon to be delivered, beginning with ROTOITI, which will be officially handed over to the Navy on Friday 17th April in Whangarei, before sailing to Devonport Naval Base on Friday 24th April.

The ship will be affiliated to the port of Napier and the Hawke's Bay region, reflecting the special relationship with the Navy that stretches back to the 1931 earthquake.

“The delivery of these ships reflects a lot of hard work by the New Zealand Defence Force, in particular the Navy, and the Ministry of Defence,” Rear Admiral Ledson said.

“The IPVs will be very capable ships and they will provide increased opportunities for our Sailors, both in the Regular Force and Naval Volunteer Reserve Forces, to have new and exciting challenges and experiences. Importantly, too, they will enable the Navy to make a wider contribution both to New Zealand in our Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ) and further a field, particularly in the South Pacific.“ Rear Admiral Ledson said.

“Along with the new Offshore Patrol Vessels and the Air Force’s P3 Orion Maritime Surveillance Aircraft, they will provide a ‘step up’ in the Defence Force’s ability to work in close partnership with government agencies such as Department of Conservation, Ministry of Fisheries, Police, Customs and the Ministry of Foreign affairs and Trade to address New Zealand’s security challenges.”


"We're grateful to the contractor, BAE, for their contribution to the significant effort that has gone in to securing the delivery of these impressive new ships. Today is a very exciting day for the Navy,” Rear Admiral Ledson said.

Background information on Project Protector IPVs

The Ministry of Defence and BAE Systems have agreed a formal delivery schedule for the Navy’s new Inshore Patrol Vessels (IPVs).

The ships are ROTOITI, HAWEA, PUKAKI and TAUPO. Prior to departure from Whangarei, they will be commissioned into naval service.

The ships are built to a modified Philippine Coast Guard “San Juan class” design. The Philippines Coast Guard currently operate 4 of this class and have been doing so since 2000.

The first IPV, ROTOITI, is planned to be delivered to Devonport Naval Base on 24th April, with the remaining three ships being delivered over the following six weeks.
The timetable for formal handover to the Navy and ceremonial commissioning of the new ships will be advised in due course.

The Offshore Patrol Vessels (OPVs) are complete and have undergone sea trials, but the contractor has not yet offered them for delivery as there are still some issues to be resolved.

Narrative Ship Data

The IPVs are versatile vessels capable of multi-agency operations in support of national security tasks.

At 55 metres long and with a contracted 3000-nautical mile range (although the sea trials show that the range is likely to be in the region of 7000nm which is double the contracted requirement), they will contribute significantly to the patrolling of New Zealand’s 15,000km coastline, and our Exclusive Economic Zone out to 200 nautical miles. The primary role of the IPVs will be patrol and response to maritime security incidents within the inshore zone around New Zealand.

In addition to patrolling, an IPV’s tasks will include surveillance, response and boarding operations, and search and rescue. Secondary roles for the IPVs will be in New Zealand disaster relief and defence aid to the civil community.

The IPVs will have a complement of 20 naval personnel and four Government agency officers. They also have the capacity to host 12 additional personnel onboard for general naval training or other duties.


Additional Information

Compared with the Inshore Patrol Craft (1990s) and the Lake Class Patrol Boats (mid-70s to late 80s) the IPVs are like comparing a Ferrari with a Toyota Hilux. The IPVs are much faster (over the double the speed of the IPC) and highly manoeuvrable. With active fin stabilisers, they provide a comfortable ride, they are far more sophisticated (modern off the shelf equipment and automated systems including unmanned machinery spaces) and significantly more capable (long range, modern communications and surveillance systems) and they look smart!

The introduction of the IPVs will be an exciting time for the Royal New Zealand Navy. There would be many senior officers watching the young Commanding Officers with envy as the IPVs are significantly better than their predecessors.

The Navy has never had anything as capable and sophisticated as these ships which are specifically designed to undertake a range of tasks for several Government agencies including Customs, Ministry of Fisheries, DoC, Police, MFAT, NZDF and Maritime New Zealand.

Their introduction will enhance Navy's recruitment and retention as these ships frequent ports around the NZ coast.
 
From the Commonwealth Navies' board of "Navweapons.com" forums:

HMNZS Otago, the RNZN first Protector class OPV was handed over the RNZN on 18-Feb-10. A number of military roles have been assigned to the OPV's - MCM, Diving Support, Military Hydrography.

Once the next OPV is delivered the RNZN will operate a force of 12 Vessels (2 x FFH, 2 x OPV, 4 x IPV, Diving Tender, Survey Ship, Tanker and the MRV Canterbury). This is down from some 20 vessels the RNZN operated at the start of 1990.

The 2010 Defence review is due for release in March this year, no public comment has been made on the likley outcome by Ministers or Defence staff.

(...)


More at the RNZN website:
HMNZSWellington.jpg



HMNZS OTAGO - P148
HMNZS OTAGO - Ship Information
The Offshore Patrol Vessels (OPVs) HMNZS OTAGO and WELLINGTON deliver substantial new capability to the Royal New Zealand Navy.  The ships can go further offshore, stay at sea longer, and conduct more challenging operations than the Inshore Patrol Vessels, and will enable the RNZN to conduct patrol and surveillance operations around New Zealand, the southern ocean and into the Pacific.

The OPV’s are capable of many roles including maritime patrol, surveillance and response.  They have the ability to conduct helicopter operations using a Seasprite SH2G helicopter, boarding operations using the ships Rigid Hull Inflatable Boats, or Military Support Operations with embarked forces.

The OPV’s have strengthened hulls which enable them to enter southern waters where ice may be encountered.  They are not designed as ice-breakers or to enter Antarctic ice-packs, but have the range and capability to undertake patrols in the southern ocean where ice may be encountered.

The ships are highly automated and operate with a core crew of 35, plus 10 flight crew to operate a helicopter.
  The ships power and control systems are fully computerised.



Specifications:
Displacement:                1,900 tonnes
Length Overall:              85 metres
Beam:                            14metres 
Range:                          6000 nautical miles
Speed:                          Maximum continuous  22 knots
Complement :               
Core ships company        35
Flight personnel:              10
Government agencies:    4
Additional personnel:      34
Total:                            83
Armament:                    One 25mm Bushmaster Naval gun and two .50 calibre machine guns

Helicopter capability   
OTAGO can embark the KAMAN SH-2G (NZ) Seasprite helicopter onboard.     
 
 
I've just read the rest of this thread and while I recognize it's quite old, it is of particular interest to me because I'm a naval architect who has designed naval ships with elements both "civ" spec and mil-spec and I have heard this debate many times from various angles.

I will not argue in any way that a warship that is expected to see combat should be mil-spec.  I agree that it would be dangerous to do otherwise and I don't believe that the CF would ever consider it.

However, this leaves a substantial grey area, and I would argue that ships that are not expected to see naval combat (ie. they are defined as non-combat ships at the outset and not expected to take torpedo, missile, or mine strikes) should be "civ" spec equipment, with a balance of naval vs. civilian requirements, even if they are commissioned warships.  While it is of course safer to build everything mil-spec, logic must intercede at some point.  I think it would be silly to buy $600 mil-spec coffee mug for a non-combat ship, when a $3 coffee mug will do.  There's a chance a brick could fall on my head while I'm out for a sunday stroll, but I'm not going to wear a helmet all the time as a result even though it would make me safer.


That being said, "civ" spec vs. mil-spec is not just a Ford Focus vs. a Formula 1.  You do have the option of the Ferrari or Lamborghini in there as well.  For instance, you can choose substantially upgraded stability regs for a commissioned warship without requiring V-lines and the compartmentation on your combat ships.  Similarly, you shouldn't have SOLAS DC standards on an armed non-combattant, but it's equally unnecessary to have the full package from a frigate.  You would design the DC system around the intended threats.

For instance, a NZ OPV is lightly armed, is a commissioned warship, and is expected to take weapon damage from non-naval sources (ie. small arms fire).  As a result, her DC capability and stability are limited to saving the ship from internally created or collision fire/flood, but not heavy weapons fire/ flood.  She is suited to her mission and is not intended to replace a combat capable ship.  On the other hand, some mil-spec is required in the comms suite to prevent EMI given her required capacity for situational awareness.

To my mind, this is the right way to do things.  This is the intended route on AOPS and gives the very important added benefit that the politicos don't have the option of confusing an AOPS program with a frigate replacement program.  AOPS cannot be placed in a combat role and thus is not now, nor shall it ever be a cheap alternative to frigates; this is an argument that every Canadian voter can understand.

To summarize: 
Combat ship = MIL-spec, no question, no comment
Armed non-combattant = substantially upgraded navy requirements from a civ base, with mil-spec as required to maintain nav and comms.
 
Very interesting points RC, thank you for your clarifications.  Just a question though. What is the best route to go for AORs? I would think because they are deployable assets that may find their way facing the same threats as other warships then they should be strictly mil spec. Do you concur?
 
I am also interest in what RC has to say on the AOR. But as RC said:

RC said:
To summarize: 
Combat ship = MIL-spec, no question, no comment
Armed non-combattant = substantially upgraded navy requirements from a civ base, with mil-spec as required to maintain nav and comms.

I think every vessels comes down to a risk assessment; Risk vs Cost. Not even that, some are a compromise with the powers at be. Some vessel are black and some are white on the spectrum and some are grey. Its the grey ones that are a kicker and the more and more we develop multi role vessels, the more those vessel will have grey lines.

It would seem to me that due to vessel costs and lengthy construction times that I would tend to lean towards being a little more cautious. Sherman Tanks paid off big for the US in WWII, but large ships are no tank. Ask a General and a tanker about the Sherman and I bet they would give you a different view of what that tank was like. As person who may serve on an AOR or JSS - Mil-Spec the shit out of it!

An AOR is a supply ship.... isn't supplies almost one of the most important things? Wouldn't you want to protect it? Wouldn't it be a high risk target?
 
Ex-Dragoon said:
Very interesting points RC, thank you for your clarifications.  Just a question though. What is the best route to go for AORs? I would think because they are deployable assets that may find their way facing the same threats as other warships then they should be strictly mil spec. Do you concur?

Yes, I absolutely agree that while an AOR (or JSS) is not necessarily a fighting ship, it is a combat ship, a high value asset, and should have whatever protection its architects can imagine.  It should have mil-spec, navy stability standards, and appropriate and substantial DC capabilities.

While I agree with some of the comments regarding the futility of protecting against modern weapons to a degree, there are still plenty of minor assets out there with weapons to suit.  Losing an AOR/JSS to something like a fast attack missile boat or an old mine would be a disaster of epic proportions.

I've only had some fringe involvement with the JSS program, so I'm not entirely aware of what they are considering, but from what I've seen of the SRD, I think it's more mil-spec than an AOPS, but less than a frigate.  I believe the stability standard is being specially developed as JSS specific.  I think the cost debate on the JSS should not revolve around the level of protection it is afforded, but the level of capability.  Better to have it do a few things well and safely than do everything on a weak and dangerous platform.
 
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