RG-31 ideal for the PRes?

[xFusilier]

There is a reason in that personal friction is a killer.  What's the point of keeping a tank for reservists if the crew fails to show up because it has final exams?  What is the purpose of having a reserve sub-unit if there is no possible way to ensure that the command and staff gets enough time guaranteed through legislation to ensure it is properly trained?

Then whats the point of spending the money recruiting, and training a crew if you don't have a tank for them to crew?  It sounds pejoritive, I know, but it seems despite policy document after policy document, we are nowheres further to defining what it is we want the reserves to do.  Once that decision is made then the changes that need to be implemented can bemade.  Job protection legislation seems to be the number one stumbling block, however, and I don't see the political will for such legislation coming abot anytime soon.   

If however, you accept the fact that many of the changes that are needed are not going to happen (Contracts, Job Protection, etc) what then is the solution?  Do we simply allow the reserve Army to wilt on the vine?

 

[Infanteer]

Pretty much.  I wouldn't want to see them expanded beyond their "farm team" role - they can get advanced training if they augment a unit (and thus show that they need and will use the skills).

 

[xFusilier]

But, to use the sports analogy, nobody says to the farm team, here's a pair of running shoes (olive drab truck) pretend they're a set of skates (an AFV).  The realization has to be made that some amount of investment has to be made in reference to equipment to get the desired product of a "farm team".

 

[KevinB]

But you dont buy or rent a 20,000 seat stadium for a Farm team either...

I think you guys are focused too much on your tree than looking at the rest of the forest is not exactly getting a lot of water either...


We had over 50% N/S rifles in a sub-unit in a reg force INF unit before getting the C7A2's  -- now sit back and ponder that.
We have REG FORCE INFANTEERS that have not shot a PWT each year.

  We have troops in Afghan that get kit in theatre - some time a WEEK AFTER they get to theatre that they have never trained on and are expected to deploy and use immediately.

  I had to sit down and spent a week getting a company's weapons zero'd with their IR lasers and NVG's since they did not know how.  (Jay4th, MJP and others can confirm that FACT)
We had no mags for pistols for a few weeks etc.

If you want me to cry for a reserve armoured unit that does not have kit its not going to happen for they will never deploy in the manner they think they will -- to bad it would be kind of funny to watch a bunch of loons ride around like clown car all over hells half acre with a C6 bungeed to the window of their jeep Maybe they could prove a route for us.  : 

I'd much sooner spend money to bring reserve engineer units up to par.

 

[COBRA-6]

The Reserves don't need RG-31's at a million per pop, we need simple trucks so that we can deploy ourselves in a DomOps situation without relying on yellow school busses.  

Get us un-armoured G-wagons, MLVW replacements and/or new-build HLVW's to use and train on so we can deploy without having to learn to drive new vehicles. We need to focus our training on what we could use overseas. Less company-level defensive live fire ammo orgys, more 2 vehicle urban patrolling, convoys, VCPs, IED cordons, vital point security etc... so when you do it on pre-training it's not a brand new idea...

The Brits here patrol in open land rovers and SUV's, along with many other contingents (something about SA and being able to react to fire), so the reserves don't need LAV's, Coyotes or RG-31's to do realistic training in Canada... I wish we practiced firing from vehicles (SUV) once or twice at home, cause it's gonna suck if I have to do it for the first time on a two-way range!

However until that changes I view 90-95% of the reserves money poorly spent.

I fully beleive the typical reserve soldier could be just as good is not better in some areas that his regular force counterpart - given the tools -- however tool #1 is an effective system.

Completely agree. How the Generals can justify spending butloads of money on soldiers they can't rely on 100% short of "mobilization" is beond me. Simple solution, you sign up, you sign a contract. They call, you haul. Job protection legislation requires no capital expense. As for employer discrimination, you make it the same as any other discrimination, illegal. Not hiring a soldier cause they might get called up for a tour should be just as wrong as not hiring a woman beacuse she might get pregnant and go on mat leave.

 

[Spanky]

I've been in the reserves for a long time.  I truly believe in it's existance and it's potential contribution.  There is certainly no need for us to have million dollar pieces if kit when the reg force require them on ops.  In a perfect world there should be enough for both, but all know the reality. Choices have to be made based on priority.  The likelihood of a formed sub-sub-unit of reservists being sent on an op to replace a comparable reg force one is not likely to happen unless changes are made to the system.
That being said, I also have a responsibility to the soldiers under my command.  Our sqn is sending 4 soldiers to an operation in the new year, and I want to do the best I can by them.  I want them trained to the best of my ability.  To accomplish that aim, I need the tools.  Don't give us the best of kit when others with a higher priority are lacking.  Give us something cheaper, with fewer bells and whistles that we can use to make the transition from reserve to a "temp reg force" easier.  If that means using LSVWs instead of the new stuff...fine, just give us the LSVW.  If it means using rented civvie pick up trucks.... fine, just give us enough bungii cords to tie the milk crate seats down the center of the bed.  Give us the best available!

 

[geo]

For Res Recce units, am baffled that they did not redistribute the fleet of good Iltis to them along with the new GWagons.... sort of a fleet multiplier - till they all die away. They're bought and paid for - get as much mileage as you can with them.

KevinB. you mention the TF of 1 Inf Bn, Recce & Engr Sqns & Arty Bty...
they are raising 2 TF at any one time.... so multiply those numbers X2 or half that 4.5 year go round

 

[Matt_Fisher]

Geo...I don't think the issue for the reserve recce. units, as it's been explained to me by friends still in, is G-Wagen or Iltis centric.  It's more a problem that relates to things such as not having TCCS in the units, causing skills attrition amongst the troops by not being able to use 'real' equipment (rather than leased morotolas, etc.).  Additionally, they're tied to an organization which when it comes to a TF model, their role is redundant. 

A good friend of mine was doing his Reserve Armoured 6A/Crew Commander course this summer in Gagetown and during opening remarks to the course being made by the Armoured School's Commandant, the Commandant stated that he couldn't understand why anyone would be in the reserve armoured recce. field.  He then elaborated that given the TF model, it is the reg. force infantry recce. platoons that provide the 'mud recce' G-Wagen mounted force.  The current model of deploying a Troop Plus or Squadron Minus of a Coyote based recce. sqn with a reg. force infantry recce. platoon integrated would continue and the reserve recce. wouldn't have a deployable role, other than G-Wagen drivers in support taskings.

I see great utility in the reserves training in some kind of soft-skinned vehicle capable of carrying an infantry section.  There has been alot of complaints made by members of this board about the armoured recce. squadrons losing their assault troops.  Why haven't the reserves been integrated to fill this role?  Again, training for an assault troop tasking could be done via an LSVW/ML.  Not perfect, but cost-effective and allows for smooth transition and integration into a LAV when deployed (although crewing issues may come up, but this is probably nothing that cannot be addressed during the work-up phase).

 

[geo]

Interesting.
Must say that if the school's commandant is questionning what the "H" everyone is doing there.... there's a big problem!!!!
Time to work on doctrine OR ... time to convert some Armd units into some more Combat Engineers (JK) or some other valuable resource....

 

[Kirkhill]

Or, despite the Commandants suggestion, have the Reserve armoured units focus on the "mud recce" role and other vehicular ops for domestic ops.  Reserve inf have an awful lot on their plates without spending their limited training time on those types of training - Vital Point Defence, Complex Terrain, Close Combat come immediately to mind.

As R23A, Matt and many others have suggested it seems that training and domops don't need large fleets of armoured vehicles and the skills learned can be transferred to an active"armoured" role if the armoured vehicles are just armoured trucks, not AFVs.

A "large" domestic fleet of soft-skinned tactical vehicles with a "small" number of centrally held "hardened" vehicles for training and for domestic support.  Leave the AFVs to support the regs in crisis interventions.

 

[Brad Sallows]

There are really only two criteria for a reserve unit's existence when you consider its role:

1) It mirrors or shadows an existing regular force capability, and the reserve units are sufficiently trained and equipped to be able to augment the regular units after a reasonably short pre-deployment phase.

2) It provides a capability not resident in the regular force:
2a) the capability is expected to be used in the near future, and therefore some - not necessarily all - of the reserve capability must be ready to support the regular force on short notice
2b) the capability is "old war" or "cold war" that we aren't ready to give up completely, and the reserve units only need to be sufficiently trained and equipped to act as a mobilization base.

If the role of a unit doesn't fit; if it simply isn't ever going to be close to useful for augmentation or mobilization within reasonable expenditure; if we have no intention of paying to "sufficiently equip and train it" to meet its purpose - cash it in for something we do need and will use.

 

[Sandbag]

I just wanted to add my .02 for what it is worth.  No plan exists for the reserves to get the armoured NYALA.  We weren't even given enough money to buy the original forecasted amount for TFA.  Having said that, the reserve Armd Regts are getting the LUVW and will it be the C&R, no.  Why? Because we do not have enough to go to 2 lines of operation and the current kitting of all reg units, CTC, CMTC and others who are in need of it.

Will the LUVW basic variant going to the res armd regts be equipped with radio, sadly no.  Areas have been told that due to this critical shortage, units will have to continue using civilian systems or some other work around.  Why is there a shortage?  More vehicles going into theatre, read Nyala, and other such things which have a priority and operational need for kit.  Couple this with the closing of the assembly line, and guess what...we are lacking equipment again.

Will there be reserve troops geared up to deploy on operations?  It is seriously being considered, and the info from the CO of the Armoured School is out of date.  The Reserves have offered up the capability to Force Generate one troop per unit per line of operation.  This is being studied, as well as reserve engineer augmentation.  When I say studied, the Army wants to do it, if the training standards can be met and the armd and engr troops are viable operational units.

Now will this guarantee deployment?  Of course not, being ready to deploy under the high readiness cycle doesn't mean you will go.  It simply means you are available to go when our country says so.  Life of a soldier, no change.  Just my .02
Sandbag

 

[Armymedic]

Sorry to stir the pot here...

But why do we have reserve armour recce?

And why would Res armour recce use a Nyala?

(remember, before being a medic, I was armour)

 

[George Wallace]

Well, before I was Armd, I was Res Armd.  In those days a Mark One Eyeball was all you needed to do Recce.  Now with all the High Tech, even the Regs can't afford to equip themselves.  Doesn't mean though that we can forget the "Basics".

 

[Kirkhill]

In those days a Mark One Eyeball was all you needed to do Recce.  Now with all the High Tech, even the Regs can't afford to equip themselves.  Doesn't mean though that we can forget the "Basics".

In WW2 Britain was defended by a high tech radar screen to detect incoming aircraft.  Unfortunately the technology of the day demanded that the sites be positioned on the coasts.  Once the aircraft were past the screen their progress was reported over telephones by guys with binoculars and massive "megaphones" that they listened to rather than spoke into.

Mark One Eyeball (and a radio/cell phone) is still all you NEED to do recce.  All the other stuff may help you do it better, day or night, at longer stand-off distances but recce (gathering intelligence) can still be done without all the bells and whistles.

A-Majoor is famous/infamous for insisting that ISTAR is a process not a unit.  Recce is also a process.

As a civilian operating in a civilian environment I regularly gather intelligence and conduct recces to gain info so as to prepare and support my business plans.

The critical part of training recce types IMHO should not be teaching them how to use the tools and/or toys, but how to conduct recces and figure out what is useful info from what is a waste of time.  How to read situations and how to report them..... the tools, and vehicles, will always change but the procedures for finding, understanding and reporting are pretty unchanging.

A Toyota Corolla, a map and a cell phone allow for recce to be conducted.

Cheers, Rant Off.

 

[a_majoor]

Make that a Toyota Land Cruiser and you get decent cross country performance as well  ;D

 

[Kirkhill]

Fair enuff  ;D

 

[armybuck041]

Most are CSS/CIMIC postions which unlike the Cbt arms are overworked.

With a rotaton schedule like TF106
  1 BN INF, 1 Recce Sqn, 1 Eng Sqn, 1 Arty Bty

We have 9 BN's of INF   so that makes 1 tour in 4.5 years hardly a hardship
Same ratio to the other Cbt Arms units.

I don't nessesarily agree with you on this.....

For TFK Roto 3 my Sqn had more than 40% on waiver. We are slowly getting the TF 3-06 Engr Sqn stood up and i'm pretty sure its gonna be similar.... Our contribution is 1/3rd larger and we still have a half Sqn oversea's.

Not sure whats going on in the "Chicken Ranch" down the road, but this is about as crazy as its ever been as a Sapper. Lets look back on the last couple of years from my Unit of under 400 pers, keeping in mind we have to disband a Sqn to mount one for Operations:

2003: Palladium Roto 13 = 1 x Fd Sqn, Athena Roto 0 = 1 x Fd Sqn +, and a Sqn on a SOVOP
2004: Reconstitution
2005: Athena Roto 3 = 1 x Fd Sqn, DART = Fd Tp +, Athena Roto 4 = 1 x Fd Sqn
2006: TF 3-06 = 1 x Fd Sqn +
2007: TF *-** = 1 x Fd Sqn +

Nobody is relaxing in lawn chairs around here.......

 

[KevinB]

Well sorry.

Where I work there is a 3months in country one month on leave issue.

The Brits, Australians and Americans I work with have had some pretty horrific deployment schedules that I am not going to be brying a river for the CF -- especially for pers that signed a waiver -- they could have chosen not to do so.


  IMHO Reserve Armoured bring exactly ZERO (0) to the table in terms a capability that the reg force Inf and Armoured recce's cannot do and they offer a small area of (preexisting) overlap at a lesser capability.

 

[armybuck041]

The Brits, Australians and Americans I work with have had some pretty horrific deployment schedules that I am not going to be brying a river for the CF -- especially for pers that signed a waiver -- they could have chosen not to do so.

I don't wanna go into the weeds on this, but not everyone who is waiver'd, has any choice in the matter short of going to the social worker/padre.

I'm not bitching (I can't deploy on this one because I am 2 years behind in my Career Crses), but it should be known that the pace is very high around here right now.

As a side note, our LAV III mounted sections will most likely be crewed by Reg Force Armoured Corp Drivers and Gunners.

Lastly, keeping on topic, the RG-31 has no place in the reserves. We (Regs) are very lucky to get them for where they are much needed.... Across the pond.